Rule 10.4.4a

[Derek Teigen]

I am still confused by this

The basic spot is the spot of the foul for illegal batting or kicking by A that occurs  behind the basic spot.

The NFHS preseason guide on page 4 shows a MechaniGram that covers a A team foul for illegal batting or illegal kicking that occurs behind the basic spot. 

So does this mean that all team B illegal kicking or batting fouls are a spot foul and enforced where the illegal kicking or batting occurred so for example, if team A fumbles the ball at the 50 yard line and it rolls forward to the b45 and team B illegally bats the ball are we enforcing the penalty then from the 45 yard line or at the 50 yard line which would be the end of the run and where we are throwing our beanbag ?

[Steely Dan]

Team B fouls are never spot fouls.

[bossman72]

Use this Rule 10 re-write.  The current Rule 10 makes zero sense and the editors don't know the difference between basic spot and enforcement spot.  In fact, the rule you quoted uses basic spot cyclically.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VfAbdZuj7K_UVWBU4USpklLXoeIlifWGmGxZ-IPeXv8/edit?usp=sharing

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1D3xK7_jXqybENP6T4XKc-vlGuXBPak10MRiI2sm_pnw/edit?usp=sharing

[SCHSref]

Team B fouls are never spot fouls.

Never???

[bossman72]

Never???

Never.

Note: Team B is shorthand for "Team not in possession" in this discussion.

[Derek Teigen]

Use this Rule 10 re-write.  The current Rule 10 makes zero sense and the editors don't know the difference between basic spot and enforcement spot.  In fact, the rule you quoted uses basic spot cyclically.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VfAbdZuj7K_UVWBU4USpklLXoeIlifWGmGxZ-IPeXv8/edit?usp=sharing

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1D3xK7_jXqybENP6T4XKc-vlGuXBPak10MRiI2sm_pnw/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks Bossman.  this is really well done and helpful.  Did you put this together?

[bossman72]

Thanks Bossman.  this is really well done and helpful.  Did you put this together?

I did.

[dch]

As Bossman alluded to (but didn't quite say) Team B fouls are never spot fouls if they are on defense.  However a team B fouls after a change of possession when team B is on offense could be a spot foul. 
Sorry to be nit-picky, but unlike the editorial committee, I think words and definitions are critically important.

[SCHSref]

Never.

Note: Team B is shorthand for "Team not in possession" in this discussion.

Well, the technical rule book definition for B would be the team not in possession at the start of the down. I hear what you are saying, but I was sticking to a more rigid definition.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Question for Bossman regarding his re-write of rule 10.  Is there any reason why for clarity the note that reads "NOTE: The run(s) which precedes a loose-ball play is (are) considered part of the action during a loose-ball play." could not say at the end that "a loose ball play ends when the ball is in possession of a player."?  The end of a loose ball play and the beginning of the next play always seem to stump new officials since the end of a loose ball play is not clearly defined IMHO.

[bossman72]

Question for Bossman regarding his re-write of rule 10.  Is there any reason why for clarity the note that reads "NOTE: The run(s) which precedes a loose-ball play is (are) considered part of the action during a loose-ball play." could not say at the end that "a loose ball play ends when the ball is in possession of a player."?  The end of a loose ball play and the beginning of the next play always seem to stump new officials since the end of a loose ball play is not clearly defined IMHO.

Well, we have rule 2 definitions of when passes and kicks end.  It probably wouldn't hurt to put in there that the loose ball play ends when the pass or kick ends.  Thanks for the suggestion!

I also think what you mention trips up new officials is that they conflate "play" with "down".  A down can have many plays, but that's something that's hard to grasp for new guys.  I wish they didn't use the word play and used "status" instead.  "The foul happened when the ball was in run status" instead of "The foul happened during a run play".  So you could ask "What status was the ball in at the time of the foul?"