fair catch signal

[zebraken]

A fair catch may be made from the neutral zone to R's goal line. Does that mean if the receiver gives a fair catch signal while standing in his own end zone and the ball enters his end zone he is guilty of an invalid fair catch signal?

[KWH]

Yes.

However, preventative officiating should apply here. The Back Judge/Scrimmage Kick or Referee/Free kick might just remind him that since the ball is dead when it crosses the goal line and he can NOT advance the ball out of the end zone, there is no reason for him to be in the end zone and get him to line up in the field of play.

Some may say that is coaching but I disagree.

[Atlanta Blue]

Any punt returner that calls for a fair catch inside the 5, or maybe even the 10 REALLY doesn't know what he's doing.  Heels on the 10, don't back up!  If the ball goes over your head, DO NOT signal for a fair catch.  Once you do, the coverage guys know they don't have to cover you, and they can get behind you to try to down the ball.  Don't signal, act you may catch the ball, and at least a couple of them have to pay attention to you instead of covering the ball.

Now THAT'S coaching returners.

That being said, why is the signal invalid?  An invalid signal is one:

That does not meet the requirements of a valid signal. - See below
After the kick has touched a receiver.  - Not an issue
After the kick has touched the ground.  - Not an issue

A valid signal is:
...the extending and lateral waving of one arm, at full arm's length above the head, by any R player.

Doing this in the end zone doesn't violate any of these rules.  Why would it be invalid?  Useless, yes, but why invalid?

[zoom]

Any punt returner that calls for a fair catch inside the 5, or maybe even the 10 REALLY doesn't know what he's doing.  Heels on the 10, don't back up!  If the ball goes over your head, DO NOT signal for a fair catch.  Once you do, the coverage guys know they don't have to cover you, and they can get behind you to try to down the ball.  Don't signal, act you may catch the ball, and at least a couple of them have to pay attention to you instead of covering the ball.

Now THAT'S coaching returners.

That being said, why is the signal invalid?  An invalid signal is one:

That does not meet the requirements of a valid signal. - See below
After the kick has touched a receiver.  - Not an issue
After the kick has touched the ground.  - Not an issue

A valid signal is:
...the extending and lateral waving of one arm, at full arm's length above the head, by any R player.

Doing this in the end zone doesn't violate any of these rules.  Why would it be invalid?  Useless, yes, but why invalid?

I agree.  Not an invalid Fair Catch signal.  He can't block until the kick has ended, however, and if a teammate catches the kick in the field of play, the ball is immediately dead.  Not a fair catch, however. 

[SCHSref]

I agree.  Not an invalid Fair Catch signal.  He can't block until the kick has ended, however, and if a teammate catches the kick in the field of play, the ball is immediately dead.  Not a fair catch, however.

If he blocks, in this scenario, after thr kick has ended, you could have a pf

[SCHSref]

Any punt returner that calls for a fair catch inside the 5, or maybe even the 10 REALLY doesn't know what he's doing.  Heels on the 10, don't back up!  If the ball goes over your head, DO NOT signal for a fair catch.  Once you do, the coverage guys know they don't have to cover you, and they can get behind you to try to down the ball.  Don't signal, act you may catch the ball, and at least a couple of them have to pay attention to you instead of covering the ball.

Now THAT'S coaching returners.

That being said, why is the signal invalid?  An invalid signal is one:

That does not meet the requirements of a valid signal. - See below
After the kick has touched a receiver.  - Not an issue
After the kick has touched the ground.  - Not an issue

A valid signal is:
...the extending and lateral waving of one arm, at full arm's length above the head, by any R player.

Doing this in the end zone doesn't violate any of these rules.  Why would it be invalid?  Useless, yes, but why invalid?

Are you saying you can give a fair catch signal after the ball hits the ground?  See bolded

[zoom]

Are you saying you can give a fair catch signal after the ball hits the ground?  See bolded

Are you saying the ball hit the ground?  I didn't read that in this situation.   

The point is, anytime a kick is in flight, any receiving team player may give a valid signal.  Once the kick enters the end zone, the kick is dead.  Giving a fair catch signal at this point is meaningless, and certainly not a foul. 

The more likely scenario is a short or blocked punt that doesn't cross the neutral zone.  You still can't have a fair catch, but team R receivers can still give a valid signal before the kick hits the ground.  In this case, the kick is dead when the ball is caught or recovered by a Team R player even though it is not a Fair Catch.

[HLinNC]

Reddings NFHS guide doesn't specifically address it.  It does state that blocking is prohibited and that "this prohibits a receiver from signaling for a fair catch near his goal line, purposely making no attempt to catch the kick and then blocking to prevent the ball from being downed before it goes into the end zone."

(pg 68 2015)

In the Summary on pg 68 regarding fair catch rules it states "A fair catch cannot be made in the end zone-the ball is dead when it breaks the the plane of Team R's goal line;"

The inference I draw from the rule book and Reddings, (there is no case play), is this- He can signal in the end zone all he wants, it is not a foul.  If he makes the catch in the end zone, the ball was already dead so there is no fair catch, it is a touchback. The signal has no significance.  It would be no different than giving a signal and then letting it hit the ground and roll to a stop and be declared dead or downed by K.

  If the kick comes up short and he advances out of the end zone to catch it, then it is a fair catch at the spot where he completes the catch in the field of play.

  He then has a large chunk of his hindquarters removed when he returns to his sideline.

[Atlanta Blue]

Are you saying you can give a fair catch signal after the ball hits the ground?  See bolded

No, I'm saying in this post, where R simply gave a signal while standing in the end zone, that part of the rule is not in question, or is not an issue in this case. 

The post assumes the kick is still in flight, the signal was a waving arm above the head, and that the only real question is, " Is an otherwise valid signal invalid because the receiver is in the end zone?"  I don't believe it is. Dumb?  Yes.  Useless?  Probably.  But I don't believe it's invalid.

[SCHSref]

Are you saying the ball hit the ground?  I didn't read that in this situation.   

The way it was worded, I wasn't sure, so I asked for clarification as opposed to assuming

[SCHSref]

No, I'm saying in this post, where R simply gave a signal while standing in the end zone, that part of the rule is not in question, or is not an issue in this case. 

The post assumes the kick is still in flight, the signal was a waving arm above the head, and that the only real question is, " Is an otherwise valid signal invalid because the receiver is in the end zone?"  I don't believe it is. Dumb?  Yes.  Useless?  Probably.  But I don't believe it's invalid.

Thanks for the clarification and yes, i don't believe that it is invalid

[VALJ]

6-5-1. Any receiver may signal for a fair catch while any legal kick is in flight. (emphasis mine)

6-5-2. It is a fair catch and the ball is dead if any receiver gives a valid fair catch signal, as in Article 1, and he catches a free kick in or beyond the neutral zone to R's goal line, or a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone to R's goal line. (emphasis mine)

2-9-3. A valid fair catch signal is the extending and lateral wavng of one arm at a full arm's length above the head by any R player.

2-9-4. An invalid fair catch signal is any signal by a receiver before the kick is caught or recovered: (a) that does not meet the requirements of a valid signal; (b) after the kick has touched a receiver; (c) after the kick has touched the ground.

Nowhere do the rules state WHERE a signal can or can not be legally given. They define what a valid signal is, what an invalid signal is, when a fair catch occurs (6-5-2 above), and define what a fair catch is (2-9-1, not quoted here).  I don't see any reason that a player can't give a fair catch signal inside his own end zone.

Now, as AB says, what the heck the return man is doing in the end zone in the first place, well, that's another story...

[BIG UMP]

VALJ, you didn't go far enough.  2-9-1 says a valid fair catch signal is one made in or beyond the NZ and to the GL.

Now, is it an invalid fair catch signal if given in the EZ, yes.  Called, no.

[VALJ]

Not quite, Ump.

2-9-1. A fair catch is a catch by the receiver of a free kick in or beyond the neutral zone to the receiver's goal line, or of a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone to the receiver's goal line, after a valid signal, under conditions in which the receiver forfeits the right to advance the ball in return for protection from being blocked or tackled by an opponent.

2-9-1 doesn't say anything about the location from which the signal is given, only the location where the catch is made.

[Curious]

IF ANY BACK JUDGE CALLS THIS AN INVALID SIGNAL FOUL, SHOOT HIM IMMEDIATELY!

[HLinNC]

IF ANY BACK JUDGE CALLS THIS AN INVALID SIGNAL FOUL, SHOOT HIM IMMEDIATELY!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!  Then we switch to 4 man and I have to chase balls.  Penalty is administered in post-game.

[Ralph Damren]

IMHO, R can signal for a fair catch anywhere (6-5-1)
IMHO, R can only make a fair catch between the goal line and neutral zone (scrimmage kick).
IMHO, R can only make a fair catch between the goal line and in or beyond neutral zone (free kick) (6-5-2)
IMHO, If R is OOB when signaling for a fair catch and returns in bounds to make it, he is guilty of IP,
IMHO, IP is an exception under PSK.
IMHO, if R shimmies up the goal post, sits on the cross bar, signals for a fair catch, catches the FG attempt, does a backflip ,lands with both feet 7 yards deep in the end zone and in possession of the football, K should be awarded 3 points (9-10-1, unfair act....see a previous topic for deeper discussion), R player should hope his school has a gymnastics team or a local circus is hiring..

 

[Atlanta Blue]

VALJ, you didn't go far enough.  2-9-1 says a valid fair catch signal is one made in or beyond the NZ and to the GL.

No, it says a valid fair catch is one made between the NZ and the goal line, not the signal.

2-9-3 defines a valid signal.  2-9-4 defines an invalid signal.  It's not invalid.

[KDJBBBJ]

IMHO, If R is OOB when signaling for a fair catch and returns in bounds to make it, he is guilty of IP,
 

Only if R goes out of bounds intentionally is it a foul.  If he accidently is standing on the sideline as he gives the signal and then steps off of it in to the field of play it is not IP. IMHO

[BIG UMP]

No, it says a valid fair catch is one made between the NZ and the goal line, not the signal.

2-9-3 defines a valid signal.  2-9-4 defines an invalid signal.  It's not invalid.

Just goes to prove I didn't pay attention.  That may be why I missed that one on my preseason test, oh it is the reason.

[VALJ]

Dude, you're an umpire.  If you're deciding whether a FC signal was legal or not, you have bigger problems tan knowing that...