Touchdown or not?

[jdcowboy]

Gentlemen,
Here is a scenario that seems so obvious that it caught me off guard.  Lets see what you all have to say.  Last night I am working a JV game as the LJ.  Our HL is a very well seasoned R.  We were breaking in one of our Umps at the R position.  I dare say he did a fine job.  On the opposite corner of the end zone they had A2 catch the ball with his foot just over the goal line in the corner he reached over the sideline and made a great catch.  The ball did not cross the GL.  HL came up with a touch down!  I could not tell one way or the other from my position.  Though it appeared the ball did not cross the GL.  My sideline was a little agitated, I could not blame them.  After the try HL runs up the center of the field, I run down my sideline as customary.  My coach is yelling at HL that the ball has to cross the GL.  I was about to tell him to simmer down, that HL had a touchdown and he was in good position to make the call.  To my horror HL yells back that it is where his foot is not the ball.  Now he just opened the Oh Darn box.  I was speechless.  HL looked at me and told me to straighten the coach out.  Of course now my coach is going ape.  I told him that he misunderstood and that they were not communicating.  Indeed the ball must cross the goal line, but HL was talking about the sideline.  We salvaged the situation, but I also knew that was baloney and that HL totally botched the call.
Am I correct does the ball have to break the goal line.  I thought this was common knowledge.  Am I missing something?  Rule 8.1B talks about catching a loose ball on or behind his opponents goal line.  I assume "behind" there means inside the end zone.  Please feel free to give your input.  I hate to tell a very knowledgeable white hat of 30 plus years he does not know the rule.   

[tow]

It's where the ball is,not the body.8-2-1b

[Reff54]

Question..  when he caught the ball outside the sideline with his foot across the goal line....did he stop his momentum   or is it possible the momentum carried the ball over the goal line extended....   I guess though he would have had to have been hit to knock him  OOB at the goal line for the ball to have crossed the goal line plane extended  for it to be a TD....

If you go to the post on goal line extended....I think his answers it....  IF  he didn't stop at the goal line with his foot across the plane and ball over out of bounds.....

If his approaching the goal line along  the sideline and he steps cross the goal line plane....but the ball is held over the out of bounds and crossing the goal line plane extended....it is a TD....

[Atlanta Blue]

Our HL is a very well seasoned R. 

He's more than overseasoned, he's into senility.

If he really believes what he said, he doesn't have 20 years of experience, he has 1 year 20 times.

Let's hope he was talking about the sideline.

[AlUpstateNY]

  To my horror HL yells back that it is where his foot is not the ball.  

There are times to use your "BIG voice" and times to use "YOUR little voice".  This was an example of when a private discussion between the LJ and the HL would have been a lot smarter.

[LarryW60]

Ahh, but the "seasoned" HL was yelling an answer at the coach, not to the other official.  The "little" voice wouldn't have reached him.  I think now I understand our mechanic a little better where we have the U always run down the scoring team's sideline to get ready for the kickoff.  It makes it harder to get abused by the team that was scored-upon's sideline.

[jdcowboy]

Thanks Fadamor,
Your absolutely right in every part of your post.  I was not in on the discussion, I had assumed he knew what he was doing when he called the touchdown!  The first clue for me was when he yells back at the coach indicating it was the foot not the ball, and at that point I started getting real queasy, and sick to my stomach.  And like Alupstate indicated there is a time for using little and big voices.  HL had to yell and make everyone on the field know we botched it.

The mechanic of going up the scoring teams side line is a good one.  Had he been doing that correctly I never would have known.  The wing official can deal with his sideline as appropriate.

[AlUpstateNY]

Ahh, but the "seasoned" HL was yelling an answer at the coach, not to the other official.  The "little" voice wouldn't have reached him. 

Exactly, "yelling" across the field at ANYBODY is rarely a good idea or produces a favorable outcome, especially when you have no idea what you're talking about.

[blandis]

From personal experience:
-Don't trust others, even of they are an R (no pun there) or "an old vet." Understand the rules and mechanics inside and out.
-Make those who refute you cite rules with the actual rule book, not opinions.
-I had an "experienced" crew of vets in my 2nd year try to convince me I was clueless when I tried to convince them they were wrong to overturn my Touchback call when Team B intercepted a pass in their end zone and was tackled there. One even got irritated at my insistance  and told me to "look it up." They wouldn't listen to me and awarded a safety to the offense. Needless to say in the locker room as I pulled out the rule book I caught CRAP until this man read what I was saying all along.

[LarryW60]

Even "Seasoned Vets" can blunder.  My White Hat was very respected and normally sharp as a tack when it came to the rules, yet he waved off a defensive illegal use of hands flag one time because "a pass didn't get thrown".  We discusssed it afterwards and he admitted that it shouldn't have been waved off.  Sometimes the rules get glommed together while you're trying to sort out what happened.  He heard "holding the receiver" and his brain morphed that into "pass interference".
 

[AlUpstateNY]

"Brain Farts" are an occupational hazard that NOBODY, regardless of experience is immune to.  Sorry to harp, but it's so absolutely important;  When ANY crew member has ANY question about ANYTHING, you need to (as privately and inconspicuously as possible) get with a crewmate(s) and verify the answer BEFORE responding.

[VALJ]

From personal experience:
-Don't trust others, even of they are an R (no pun there) or "an old vet." Understand the rules and mechanics inside and out.

The good referees in my association always say during their pregame that if anyone on the crew has a question about anything, stop the game and talk it out. 

I don't think that I'm a "good referee" yet, and I damn well *know* that I want the rest of the crew thinking and questioning me if they think something's amiss.  I specifically say that, and ask for help, and remind them that we all share responsibility for things like penalty enforcement.

[AlUpstateNY]

Only two things can happen when you question a Referee, and both of them are good;

1. He can confirm he was right and explain whatever it is you're questioning so that you learn something that he was able to teach you, which should enhance your impression of him and increase your knowledge and understanding of some finer point of the game.

2. He can realize he was incorrect (or incomplete) and correct something he may have been wrong about BEFORE it causes any damage or liability avoiding the embarrassment of going through the effort of a sunsequent correction, and possible censure (depending on the significance of the matter at hand), and make both you and the Referee look professional, competent and dedicated to doing the right thing.

There isn't a downside to this type interaction.