Author Topic: LOS Halftime Sideline Change  (Read 24646 times)

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Offline twref

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LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« on: December 14, 2015, 05:29:49 PM »
NCAA Line of Scrimmage Officials change sidelines at halftime-has proven good for both coaches and officials.  Do people think this would be a good mechanic on Federation games?  Please don't tell me that Friday night Line Judge's cannot figure out the chains, Head Linesman's cannot learn to run downfield at the snap on scrimmage kicks, measurement responsibilities or where to stand and keys on kickoffs.  Thoughts? 

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2015, 05:59:14 PM »
A solution looking for a problem.

And what makes you think it's been a universal success in the NCAA?  Feedback I have heard is that it's a non-issue. It's not a problem, but neither was the old way.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2015, 08:46:46 PM »
NCAA officials I've spoken with hate it. It's not needed in Fed, either, IMO.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline HLinNC

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2015, 09:26:50 PM »
No need.  No benefit gained.  Why not flip the U and the R if its such a great concept?

Offline GAHSUMPIRE

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2015, 09:27:30 PM »
This is the first I heard about this. Do you know who came up with it, and why? I am curious, because I just don't see the reason to do that. What problem is this designed to address?  And is it ONLY the HL & LJ? If you are switching, why not the FJ & SJ too- or instead?

I guess I could see it for training, but with everything else going on, why introduce more variables to the situation?

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2015, 02:19:48 AM »
I will say this: HS officials are much more susceptible to... hmm, "persuasion"... than college officials. It's unfortunate, but I think most of us know a few HS officials that have the propensity to be persuadedt  by the birds chirping on their sideline more easily than they should be. College officials are (in theory) better and more confident, have consistent video review and grading, etc. which leads to them being less susceptible in this regard.

So could moving these officials from one side to the other help? Perhaps - it'd at least level the playing field. But it doesn't really solve the problem - it just moves it from one team to the other every 24 minutes.

I've done the whole swapping things side in my limited college experience. I like it. I like working with both coaching staffs throughout the game and I feel like especially when I work short wing the change in mechanics is exciting and keeps things fresh. Almost like an entirely new game.

Offline VALJ

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2015, 07:20:31 AM »
A solution looking for a problem.

And what makes you think it's been a universal success in the NCAA?  Feedback I have heard is that it's a non-issue. It's not a problem, but neither was the old way.

I agree. College chain crews tend to be a bit more reliable than high schools, and every official who's worked the chains more than once can remember those crews that took the entire first half to finally pay attention do what we wanted them to do, right?  And back in my LJ days, one of the things I like about being LJ was NOT dealing with those darn chains in the first place. In some places they were great, but when we're working with the kids who were more interested in texting their girlfriend than paying attention... yeesh.

And is it ONLY the HL & LJ? If you are switching, why not the FJ & SJ too- or instead?

Both the short and deep wings swap sides of the field.  At our FCS games, the L and F work the chain side of the field in the first half, and the H and S work the chain side of the field in the second, so all four wing officials are on both sides of the field over the course of the game.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2015, 07:41:27 AM »
This is a proposal to the manual committee and where this is a print year, we may see it in black & white next year.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2015, 07:49:09 AM »
As a crew chief, I've swapped the wings at halftime on rare occasions.  In all instances, it was because I felt there was strong potential for an ugly confrontation.  However, I'm not in favor of doing this on a regular basis.

Offline bossman72

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2015, 07:52:08 AM »
I personally like it.

I heard PA doesn't switch sidelines because some assignors (in areas where they don't use crews) assign wing guys to a specific sideline to prevent problems with coaches.

The only thing I wish NCAA did was have the chains stay with the HL.  It's goofy going from managing the chains to not managing the chains.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2015, 07:52:15 AM »
This is the first I heard about this. Do you know who came up with it...?
NFL
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Jim D

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2015, 08:07:31 AM »
The NFL does it the smart way - they move the chains with the HL at half time.  I think it's important for the HL and the chain crew to establish a bond/process/rhythm - what ever you want to call it.  Each crew and each HL is a little different and it's hard enough to get both on the same track without starting all over again at half time.

I don't agree that it's been a great success at the NCAA level - it's been maybe just OK.  If you really want to do it at the Fed level, do it like the NFL does. 

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2015, 08:36:23 AM »
The NFL moves the chains with the H because there is an auxiliary set of chains on the opposite side.  The press box (statisticians, TV, spotters, etc) need the chains opposite the press box.  In addition, coaches want them opposite for film purposes.

When the NCAA first adopted the mechanic, the plan was to move the chains with the H.  It was QUICKLY decided that was not practical for all the above reasons.  So unless you have an second set of chains on the opposite sideline, it isn't practical to move the chains with the H.

Offline FLAHL

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2015, 08:47:42 AM »
No need.  No benefit gained.  Why not flip the U and the R if its such a great concept?

Or have the teams switch sides.   nAnA


Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2015, 09:56:38 AM »
For any of you that are long of tooth (like me), you may remember back in the '50s : Ike was in the White House, Elvis couldn't be shown from the waist down on TV, OUR NY/Maine Football Giants couldn't stop the Colts in O.T., and the Head Linesman swapped positions with the (then) field judge at half time and brought his chains with him. We had tool boxes, fishing boxes, pencil boxes, and lunch boxes back then but no press boxes.

            .....those were the daze.... yEs:

Offline Rulesman

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2015, 11:44:20 AM »
Maybe so, but switching sides at the Fed level is still a bad idea.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2015, 12:00:48 PM »
Maybe so, but switching sides at the Fed level is still a bad idea.

ABSOLUTELY,  This is nowhere near being broke, and does NOT need "fixing".

Offline Curious

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2015, 12:18:46 PM »
The NFL moves the chains with the H because there is an auxiliary set of chains on the opposite side.  The press box (statisticians, TV, spotters, etc) need the chains opposite the press box.  In addition, coaches want them opposite for film purposes.

When the NCAA first adopted the mechanic, the plan was to move the chains with the H.  It was QUICKLY decided that was not practical for all the above reasons.  So unless you have an second set of chains on the opposite sideline, it isn't practical to move the chains with the H.

THIS is what I think should happen :thumbup

No need to change the responsibilities of the officials - just change their side of the field. I must admit, on too many crews I've observed, at the HS level, there is varied sense among wing men of what should be called - or not.  Often the L is a "newer" official.  If either situation exists, when the official is hesitant or has rabbit ears, those tendencies at lease would stay consistent throughout the particular contest....   

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2015, 08:35:41 AM »
THIS is what I think should happen :thumbup

No need to change the responsibilities of the officials - just change their side of the field. I must admit, on too many crews I've observed, at the HS level, there is varied sense among wing men of what should be called - or not.  Often the L is a "newer" official.  If either situation exists, when the official is hesitant or has rabbit ears, those tendencies at lease would stay consistent throughout the particular contest....

There's always the alternative, that when a sideline official (newer or seasoned) is dealing with an overly abusive, or excessively annoying sideline, of assisting him in dealing with the problem directly, or by privately requesting the Head Coach cleaning up HIS problem, to avoid you having to take steps that may be far more punitive and cause lasting embarrassment to his school and/or his staff.

Offline Curious

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2015, 10:45:40 AM »
There's always the alternative, that when a sideline official (newer or seasoned) is dealing with an overly abusive, or excessively annoying sideline, of assisting him in dealing with the problem directly, or by privately requesting the Head Coach cleaning up HIS problem, to avoid you having to take steps that may be far more punitive and cause lasting embarrassment to his school and/or his staff.

I'm really not even sure what this means.....

We're discussing whether the change of sides for the chains makes sense or not.  Part of my reasoning is simply to have both sidelines feel they are getting the same treatment.  How many times have we heard from a coach, "call it both ways"; or "you called the same thing a hold here but the other guy let it go".

The argument for the change of sides has nothing to do with an abusive coach.
   

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2015, 10:49:32 AM »
I don't think the changing of the wings is necessary, nor do I think it's a good idea.  Why not switch out the R at halftime just so there is an equal look by someone else?

But regardless of moving the wings, it is impractical to move the chains.  They need to be opposite the press box for cameras, announcers, statisticians and coach's film.

And if you aren't going to move the chains, now you need each wing to be versed in chain management, and that simply isn't true on many (most?) high school crews.

Offline Curious

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2015, 11:15:38 AM »
I don't think the changing of the wings is necessary, nor do I think it's a good idea.  Why not switch out the R at halftime just so there is an equal look by someone else?

C'mon AB; All R's have TWO "good sides" pHiNzuP

But regardless of moving the wings, it is impractical to move the chains.  They need to be opposite the press box for cameras, announcers, statisticians and coach's film.

I did think about that aspect (press box, etc); but in most places these days, don't you think there is enough room for the chains to be visible; plus it is a further incentive for the H to keep the sideline back where they belong.

And if you aren't going to move the chains, now you need each wing to be versed in chain management, and that simply isn't true on many (most?) high school crews.

Can't argue here (except our crew...where we move the wings and BJ around regularly...lot's of experience)

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2015, 12:23:38 PM »
I did think about that aspect (press box, etc); but in most places these days, don't you think there is enough room for the chains to be visible; plus it is a further incentive for the H to keep the sideline back where they belong.
It's not a matter of room.  When watching from the press box, we want the play in front of us with the chains as part of the view.  It becomes really critical on film.  Having them on the side closest to the pressbox does cut down the view, and they don't show up on film.

When the NCAA first went to the switching of sides of the wings, they were going to switch the chains as well.  TV, coaches and SIDs all quickly raised such a storm that the idea of moving the chains was quickly abandoned.

The NFL moves the chains with the H, but they also keep an auxiliary set of chains on the opposite sideline.  So unless you want to add an auxiliary set to every high school field (at $500-800 per set, in addition to another chain crew), it's isn't practical. 

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2015, 02:42:22 PM »
I'm really not even sure what this means.....

We're discussing whether the change of sides for the chains makes sense or not.  Part of my reasoning is simply to have both sidelines feel they are getting the same treatment.  How many times have we heard from a coach, "call it both ways"; or "you called the same thing a hold here but the other guy let it go".

The argument for the change of sides has nothing to do with an abusive coach.

Would you prefer "ANNOYING" coach?  Your "reasoning", "simply to have both sidelines feel they are getting the same treatment" is absurd.  How coaches "feel" is NOT a valid concern for field officials, and paying attention to such nonsense only serves to acknowledge questioning of our integrity, which can easily rise to constitute being ABUSE.  Questioning our integrity, regardless of creativity, is unacceptable.

When STUPID comments like, ""call it both ways"; or "you called the same thing a hold here but the other guy let it go" become repetitive, or otherwise exceeds your ability to totally ignore them, you might consider the advice suggested above, and have a private conversation with the Head Coach, providing him the opportunity of taking corrective action BEFORE you have to. 

Appropriate corrective action, regardless of who has to initiate it, eliminates the need, and hopefully the notion, that there is some logical reason for moving the chains across the field.

Offline bossman72

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Re: LOS Halftime Sideline Change
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2015, 03:00:23 PM »
It's not a matter of room.  When watching from the press box, we want the play in front of us with the chains as part of the view.  It becomes really critical on film.  Having them on the side closest to the pressbox does cut down the view, and they don't show up on film.

When the NCAA first went to the switching of sides of the wings, they were going to switch the chains as well.  TV, coaches and SIDs all quickly raised such a storm that the idea of moving the chains was quickly abandoned.

The NFL moves the chains with the H, but they also keep an auxiliary set of chains on the opposite sideline.  So unless you want to add an auxiliary set to every high school field (at $500-800 per set, in addition to another chain crew), it's isn't practical. 


NCAA should just mandate an aux down box and LTG marker.  Just about every D1 school has one.  Sub-D1 would have to hire a couple more students