Author Topic: Encroachment  (Read 1183 times)

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Offline Derek Teigen

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Encroachment
« on: April 04, 2022, 11:06:21 AM »
what are your thoughts on the following situation?

short yardage situation, a defender is lining up in the neutral zone.  Coach is next to me and I tell coach if your player doesn't back out by the snap it's encroachment.  Would anybody go as far as to say would you like a time out to address it?


Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2022, 11:23:57 AM »
I wouldn't offer that up.  I might tell the coach he needs to get back, and almost always, they start yelling at the player to back up, and probably 90% of the time, they get back before the snap.  This is also something you can be a bit proactive on, if he's creeping up on the NZ, let the coach know and they usually get it resolved. 

That said, the friendly warning offered to the coach is not an obligation of any official, but helps keep the game running smoothly. 

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2022, 11:36:04 AM »
That said, the friendly warning offered to the coach is not an obligation of any official, but helps keep the game running smoothly.

A SUBTLE/GENERAL warning can be very helpful in avoiding problems. A non-specific warning can avoid accusations (WATCH the line, people) addresses EVERYONE.

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2022, 11:58:54 AM »
Ok that's helpful Bossman last year came up with shout  'look down the line!'  If I see 10 or 12 on the field I will always tell a coach ' count your players.'

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2022, 12:32:04 PM »
"Hey ##, back up".

Asking a coach if he wants a timeout to "fix" an encroachment is like breaking out a 12 gauge shotgun to swat a fly.



Offline KWH

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2022, 01:05:30 PM »
"Hey ##, back up".

Asking a coach if he wants a timeout to "fix" an encroachment is like breaking out a 12 gauge shotgun to swat a fly.

Agree completely with HL's response!  No flag, just tell the coach and it should solve itself.
Helpful hint: If IMMEDIATELY after informing the coach, should the coach yell: "JOHNSON - BACK THE F*CK UP!"
PLEASE CONSIDER THIS ACTION A COACHING MOMENT AND NOT A FLAG!
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Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2022, 02:28:06 PM »
i laughed at the analogy of the shot gun to swat the fly....but I'm thinking key short yardage situation and the game is on the line so it's a pretty big fly.  I would hate to call an encroachment in that situation but then if a defender is lining up and the play goes off and he impacts the play such that the line to gain is not reached or he causes a fumble or even worse an injury...I can't let that go.

its for that reason I have resolved to always call encroachment but I don't want to IF we can get the lines in order before the snap goes off.  I will give them every opportunity to get back before the snap but if they are in the neutral zone I will blow it dead at the snap.  I will try to yell 'look down the line!!" or 'Watch the line people!'  those are good suggestions. 

I guess as I am thinking this through a coach on my side who would hear me yelling about the lines could assess whether or not they need a timeout to prevent the yardage penalty and resulting 1st down...the coach on the other side wouldn't though.  it would be a touch situation.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2022, 03:23:24 PM »
its for that reason I have resolved to always call encroachment but I don't want to IF we can get the lines in order before the snap goes off.  I will give them every opportunity to get back before the snap but if they are in the neutral zone I will blow it dead at the snap.  I will try to yell 'look down the line!!" or 'Watch the line people!'  those are good suggestions. 

I guess as I am thinking this through a coach on my side who would hear me yelling about the lines could assess whether or not they need a timeout to prevent the yardage penalty and resulting 1st down...the coach on the other side wouldn't though.  it would be a touch situation.

Loud & clear cautions to EVERYONE should eliminate bogus favoritism accusations.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2022, 05:52:39 PM »
Quote
but I'm thinking key short yardage situation and the game is on the line so it's a pretty big fly.  I would hate to call an encroachment in that situation but then if a defender is lining up and the play goes off and he impacts the play such that the line to gain is not reached or he causes a fumble or even worse an injury...I can't let that go.

If the snapper's hand(s) is/are on the ball and you've got a player lined up in the NZ, it's a foul by the book.   If you wish to utilize some preventive officiating and alert a B player, the prime factor should be if the snap is imminent or not.  The play does not "go off" on an encroachment.  Its a DBF no matter when you blow the whistle so there is no play to impact.





Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2022, 08:08:56 PM »
If the snapper's hand(s) is/are on the ball and you've got a player lined up in the NZ, it's a foul by the book.   If you wish to utilize some preventive officiating and alert a B player, the prime factor should be if the snap is imminent or not.  The play does not "go off" on an encroachment.  Its a DBF no matter when you blow the whistle so there is no play to impact.

yes, what I have been doing is trying to get the lines in order but if they are not and there is a player in the neutral zone I will blow my whistle immediately on the snap, almost as if I was going to blow my whistle just before the snap but the ball is hiked but on the whistle everybody stops, so yes there is no play to impact because the play never develops.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2022, 06:23:43 AM »
Back when I ran the line, I would talk directly to the player, but never to the coach. If a player initially lined up in the nz, I would yell ďback upĒ a couple of times. If he didnít, I flagged it. I never liked the idea of ďhelpingĒ the coach on my side, simply because itís a one way street. If/when the other team did the same thing, I couldnít ďhelpĒ their coach because I wasnít on the same side. Of course, if the other wing did the same thing I did, it would cancel out the potential advantage. But still, I kept my comments directed to the players.

I also didnít (and still donít) like the idea of throwing a dead ball foul at the snap. Sometimes itís unavoidable, but as has been mentioned here, encroachment is dead ball. Call the foul while the ball is dead. Itís only five yards, and both teams get the message quickly.


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Offline ncwingman

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2022, 12:53:52 PM »
I also didnít (and still donít) like the idea of throwing a dead ball foul at the snap. Sometimes itís unavoidable, but as has been mentioned here, encroachment is dead ball. Call the foul while the ball is dead. Itís only five yards, and both teams get the message quickly.

I agree that this is in a weird category under NFHS. If the player is lined up in the neutral zone, it is *already* a foul. If a player jumps into the neutral zone, he can't "get back" before the snap -- lining up slowly isn't different.

I'm not saying you should be flag happy, but it's different than, say, lining up with 12. They can "fix" that before the snap if they can communicate well.

If it's borderline, he's getting a talking to early in the game, but you don't wait until the snap is imminent later in the game if he didn't learn his lesson early.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2022, 01:06:39 PM »
I agree with Calhoun that preventive officiating should be aimed at the player, not the coach. IMHO, lining up in the NZ gives the player a only couple of inches advantage while jumping the snap gives the player unfair momentum and should be called. A quiet phrase  such as : " ..You're CLOSE to being in the neutral zone" ; ":You were CLOSE to holding, keep your hands in" ; etc.is safer than : "You were holding that time, DON'T do it again." Which translates to the opposing coach as : "I'm letting you off from holding"... >:( Boy, I bet he won't let my players off  >:( hEaDbAnG. Some coaches think that you are biased before the game  starts, don't add fuel to the flame.  :puke:

Offline PABJNR

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2022, 06:39:33 AM »
Nice thing about O2Oís if a player is getting close to warranting a foul on the LOS I can discretely tell my U to back so and so up.  I will usually tell the HC we told so and so to back up, so if you do have to flag the HC knows you were communicating and trying to work with the players. 

So and so also sometimes goes by Big Bubba.


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Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2022, 10:15:31 AM »
ok...all good suggestions and this is how I am going to approach it this fall.

1.  pre-game with crew importance of keeping lines in order.
2.  work with and communicate with U and off wing on radio phone if we see someone getting close to being in the neutral zone.
3.  If a player lines up in the neutral zone shout:  "Look Down the Line!"  or 'Watch the Line People!'  Don't coach the coaches!!
4.  If the player doesn't respond---- blow the play dead BEFORE the snap occurs.

Judgment call but a player 'slightly' in the neutral zone we will talk to.  A player obviously in the neutral zone must be flagged before the snap as this player has an advantage and could impact the play. 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2022, 10:20:13 AM by Derek Teigen »

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2022, 01:18:22 PM »
Not bad but I would recommend that if you can identify the player, just call him out.  "Hey 72, back up"- will get you a quicker response than a nebulous "look down the line". 

Offline blandis

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2022, 10:51:32 PM »
Don't explain officiating 101 in the game to a coach just before the snap, maybe later. The best encroachment I ever saw: Team K lining up for a kickoff. One of the Team K players, a lineman, is acting like he is going to run up to kick it. His plan is to fake it so that the actual kicker comes in from the other side and kicks it. Well, this lineman fake kicker trips and full-on belly flops in front of the ball and hits the ball with his helmet accidentally knocking it off the tee. I managed not to laugh while announcing the foul.

Offline refjeff

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2022, 07:00:45 PM »
Should we allow the offensive line to encroach on short yardage plays?


Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2022, 07:57:30 PM »
Should we allow the offensive line to encroach on short yardage plays?
Is this a real question?


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Offline HLinNC

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2022, 05:51:51 AM »
I think it is a turning around of the original question, albeit to a question that was asked nearly 3 months ago.

Offline refjeff

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2022, 07:07:49 AM »
Is this a real question?


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Yes.

 Reading the posts, the consensus is that in short yardage situations we should allow the defense to line up in neutral zone.  Should we give the offense the same advantage?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2022, 09:59:49 AM »
Yes.

 Reading the posts, the consensus is that in short yardage situations we should allow the defense to line up in neutral zone.  Should we give the offense the same advantage?

Gotcha. IMO, I really don't think that's the substance of the posts. I think the issue is whether to give B the opportunity to get out of the NZ before the snap by warning the coaching staff, as opposed to waiting until the ball is snapped, then blowing and throwing. It's not like anyone is advocating for allowing the play to continue without penalty.

On that note, I'll ask a question RE: your response. If, when the OT approaches the line of scrimmage and goes down into a 3 point stance, realizes his hand is in the NZ, and readjusts to correct that, are you going to let him? Or are you gonna blow and throw?
That's the essence of the question.

Offline refjeff

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2022, 10:59:16 AM »
Good points.  I am going to give players the opportunity to back out of the neutral zone.

If I talk to a coach it's going to be after the play.

If it's 1st & 10 and a player is a couple of inches in the neutral zone I'm going to ignore it.  If it's short yardage I will whistle and flag when I feel the snap is imminent.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2022, 11:19:11 AM »
Good points.  I am going to give players the opportunity to back out of the neutral zone.

If I talk to a coach it's going to be after the play.

If it's 1st & 10 and a player is a couple of inches in the neutral zone I'm going to ignore it.  If it's short yardage I will whistle and flag when I feel the snap is imminent.

yep. I agree fully.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Encroachment
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2022, 11:33:45 AM »
Quote
Reading the posts, the consensus is that in short yardage situations we should allow the defense to line up in neutral zone.

 I agree that we do tend to give B a chance to get out if they've erroneously gotten into the NZ a smidge.  I wouldn't call it a consensus that the posts agree with allowing B to line up in the NZ.