Author Topic: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......  (Read 1377 times)

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Online Ralph Damren

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Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« on: May 25, 2022, 02:03:34 PM »
I feel most can agree that the most challenging plays we are faced with involve kicks. I've listed some that I've watched or ruled on . I would like to hear your opinion for a call....

NCAA game, I was  :o ECO :
  (1) A punting from own 20, 4th & 10;
  (2) Snap goes sailing over punter's head and into A's end zone;
  (3) A1, the punter, fields ball in end zone and punts a 'grounder';
  (4) A2, Big ole' Bubba, fields the grounder at A's 15;
  (5) Both teams begin to leave the field as Bubba whips the ball forward to surprised  sNiCkErS umpire;
  (6) Ump quickly drops the ball.. many tweeters tweet  :o :o :o :o :o :o (six man crew;
  (7)  ^talk ^talk ^talk confer.....
          YOU MAKE THE CALL  :sTiR:

NFHS game I refed several years ago :
  (1) Kickoff from K's 40;
  (2) R1 fields kick from R's 10;
  (3) R69 punches K2 @ R's 45
  (4) R1 fumbles ball at R's 20;
  (5) R2 scoops up the loose ball at B's 21 and takes it for a ^good touchdown.
           YOU MAKE THE CALL     :sTiR:

NFHS game I refed a few years ago :
  (1) K's ball @ K's 3, 3rd down and 10;
  (2) A1 tries quick kick from end zone;
  (3) kick is blocked, as ball bounces still in end zone when K1 kicks the loose ball;
  (4) illegal kick goes OOB @ K's 8
          YOU MAKE THE CALL          :sTiR:
         
Give your best shot at these and respond with some of your own if you wish ^good ^no ^TD ^flag
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 02:16:40 PM by Ralph Damren »

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2022, 02:23:27 PM »
I feel most can agree that the most challenging plays we are faced with involve kicks. I've listed some that I've watched or ruled on . I would like to hear your opinion for a call....

NCAA game, I was  :o ECO :
  (1) A punting from own 20, 4th & 10;
  (2) Snap goes sailing over punter's head and into A's end zone;
  (3) A1, the punter, fields ball in end zone and punts a 'grounder';
  (4) A2, Big ole' Bubba, fields the grounder at A's 15;
  (5) Both teams begin to leave the field as Bubba whips the ball forward to surprised  sNiCkErS umpire;
  (6) Ump quickly drops the ball.. many tweeters tweet  :o :o :o :o :o :o (six man crew;
  (7)  ^talk ^talk ^talk confer.....
          YOU MAKE THE CALL  :sTiR:

Need more info. This could be as simple - although ugly - as an inadvertent whistle. But, that assumes either the ball was actually held by the U, or the whistles occurred BEFORE the ball landed on the ground after bouncing off the U.  In either of those cases, Team A would have the option to repeat the down, or accept the result of the down. No doubt in my mind the down would be repeated.

However, if the ball simply bounced off the U, and it landed on the ground, then that would be an incomplete forward pass, and B would take over at the previous spot. Ouch. Yeah, Team A would be livid, and think that we should treat this as a fumble, and, therefore, a live loose ball, with an inadvertent whistle. Nope. Not the way it works. Coach, you need to be smarter, and you need to train your players better.

Lucky that ball wasn't thrown backwards. Then you'd have the live loose ball scenario. 



NFHS game I refed several years ago :
  (1) Kickoff from K's 40;
  (2) R1 fields kick from R's 10;
  (3) R69 punches K2 @ R's 45
  (4) R1 fumbles ball at R's 20;
  (5) R2 scoops up the loose ball at B's 21 and takes it foe touchdown.
           YOU MAKE THE CALL     :sTiR:

Offline GA Umpire

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2022, 03:48:48 PM »
NFHS game I refed several years ago :
  (1) Kickoff from K's 40;
  (2) R1 fields kick from R's 10;
  (3) R69 punches K2 @ R's 45
  (4) R1 fumbles ball at R's 20;
  (5) R2 scoops up the loose ball at B's 21 and takes it for a ^good touchdown.
           YOU MAKE THE CALL     :sTiR:
       
Give your best shot at these and respond with some of your own if you wish ^good ^no ^TD ^flag
I'll try.

Flag on R69 for a personal foul, ejection for R69 because of the punch.
Penalty will be administered from the R20 (spot of the fumble), half the distance to the 10. 
1st and 10 for R at that spot.  R69 ejected.

Offline GA Umpire

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2022, 03:56:28 PM »

NFHS game I refed a few years ago :
  (1) K's ball @ K's 3, 3rd down and 10;
  (2) A1 tries quick kick from end zone;
  (3) kick is blocked, as ball bounces still in end zone when K1 kicks the loose ball;
  (4) illegal kick goes OOB @ K's 8
          YOU MAKE THE CALL          :sTiR:
         
Give your best shot at these and respond with some of your own if you wish ^good ^no ^TD ^flag
I'll try again.

Team B can decline the penalty and take the result of the play. 3rd and 5 from the 8.  The status of the ball remains a fumble as the kick was illegal.
Team B can accept the penalty.  Safety, two points for Team B as the penalty is administered from the spot of the illegal kick.
Team A will free kick from their own 20.

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2022, 04:47:23 AM »

Good job, Elvis, after conferring the ref signaled  ^no and awarded the ball to B at the previous spot. Our PA announcer informed the wild masses : " Er... the penalty is declined, ____'s ball ,1st and ten." Many  :o ??? :!# were scratching their heads . Protocol sent me into the officials' room at halftime , and I inquired. They answered......

It was a forward pass heading towards the ump's  sNiCkErS waist sNiCkErS (he had a large one) ,so the  ^no meant incomplete pass. With both teams heading towards the sidelines, big ole' Bubba had a clear path for a  ^good. Instead of becoming the homecoming hero, he passed it up to have a passing record of 0-1  tR:oLl

I then inquired if there was any IRs beyond the LOS (the ump was)  ???.....They responded : "Go back to your @#$%^&* perch  ;D ! "

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2022, 05:12:55 AM »
I'll try.

Flag on R69 for a personal foul, ejection for R69 because of the punch.
Penalty will be administered from the R20 (spot of the fumble), half the distance to the 10. 
1st and 10 for R at that spot.  R69 ejected.

Good job, GA Ump. IMHO, this is a great example of the 'WHEN' of the'WHO,WHAT,WHEN, WHERE' components of penalty enforcement as there was three possible situations:
(1) If the foul had occurred before R had gained possession, we would re-kick from R'45.
(2) If the foul had occurred after R2 had recovered the fumble, ABO - R's ball @R's 30.
(3) But the foul occurred during R1's related run, it is enforced from the spot of the fumble.

I had my beanbag there and LJ confirmed that foul occurred during that piece of the play . R's coach called for a R/C conference and asked : "GEE WILLICERS (or something theresuch} that seems like an really long penalty  ??? ??? /"

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2022, 05:31:35 AM »
I'll try again.

Team B can decline the penalty and take the result of the play. 3rd and 5 from the 8.  The status of the ball remains a fumble as the kick was illegal.
Team B can accept the penalty.  Safety, two points for Team B as the penalty is administered from the spot of the illegal kick.
Team A will free kick from their own 20.
Good try, but remember the change in 2-24-9. Don't feel bad, I got it wrong in the real game, too . pi1eOn

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2022, 08:41:35 AM »

I then inquired if there was any IRs beyond the LOS (the ump was)  ???.....They responded : "Go back to your @#$%^&* perch  ;D ! "

Certainly a reasonable question to ask, but moot, as Team B would have declined the penalty and still taken possession of the ball at the previous spot.
Do they have pupus up there in the 'perch'? (Pupus are Hawaiian finger foods. We'd have pupus and beverages in the parking lot with 'local' friends and family after our games over there. Mmmmmmm.)

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2022, 10:38:37 AM »
Certainly a reasonable question to ask, but moot, as Team B would have declined the penalty and still taken possession of the ball at the previous spot.
Do they have pupus up there in the 'perch'? (Pupus are Hawaiian finger foods. We'd have pupus and beverages in the parking lot with 'local' friends and family after our games over there. Mmmmmmm.)
I've tailgated many times, during those times I've sampled many tasty things  both there and in the perch. I don't believe I've ever had pupus at either. The closest would be pizza.

I enjoy the beverage at the tailgate more than the beverages at the pressbox  eAt& eAt& eAt& eAt& eAt& eAt& eAt& eAt& eAt& eAt& eAt& eAt& eAt&

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2022, 01:56:22 PM »
Guys, we still don't have an answer to the illegal kick question  :!#.......

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2022, 02:09:31 PM »
Guys, we still don't have an answer to the illegal kick question  :!#.......

That's Fed. I'm staying out of that.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2022, 04:08:20 PM »
Quote
Guys, we still don't have an answer to the illegal kick question  :!#.......

If  B/R takes the penalty, it is a safety.  Illegal Kicking foul would be penalized from the EZ.
If B/R declines the penalty, A's ball at the A8, 4th and 5.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2022, 04:55:36 PM »
If  B/R takes the penalty, it is a safety.  Illegal Kicking foul would be penalized from the EZ.
If B/R declines the penalty, A's ball at the A8, 4th and 5.

Wow. Come on over Texas site for a different ruling using NCAA rules.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2022, 05:48:50 PM »
I feel most can agree that the most challenging plays we are faced with involve kicks. I've listed some that I've watched or ruled on . I would like to hear your opinion for a call....


NFHS game I refed a few years ago :
  (1) K's ball @ K's 3, 3rd down and 10;
  (2) A1 tries quick kick from end zone;
  (3) kick is blocked, as ball bounces still in end zone when K1 kicks the loose ball;
  (4) illegal kick goes OOB @ K's 8
          YOU MAKE THE CALL          :sTiR:
         
Give your best shot at these and respond with some of your own if you wish ^good ^no ^TD ^flag

So, we have a legal kick that was illegally kicked. Since the kick crossed the NZ, If R declines the penalty, itís their ball at the K 8.  If R accepts the penalty, the basic spot is the previous spot, but with the foul occurring behind the basic spot, the foul will be enforced at the spot of the foul, which is in the end zone. So award R a safety.
OR, I guess because this was a scrimmage kick, R could take the ball at the K8 and have the illegal kick tacked on. Half the distance to the 4. First and 10 for R/A.


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« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 05:55:04 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2022, 07:38:30 PM »
Minor correction to Calhoun -- the kick didn't cross the NZ (which was the 10, and the ball only made it back to the 8), however that's not relevant to the ruling. Since the legal kick was illegal kicked, it retains its status as a kick and any scrimmage kick that becomes dead out of bounds between the goal lines is awarded to R at that spot (6-2-7). I agree with the rest, including the options for penalty enforcement (safety or half the distance from the 8).

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2022, 09:02:04 PM »
Minor correction to Calhoun -- the kick didn't cross the NZ (which was the 10, and the ball only made it back to the 8), however that's not relevant to the ruling. Since the legal kick was illegal kicked, it retains its status as a kick and any scrimmage kick that becomes dead out of bounds between the goal lines is awarded to R at that spot (6-2-7). I agree with the rest, including the options for penalty enforcement (safety or half the distance from the 8).

No, the previous spot was the A-3 (K-3), so the ball did, ultimately, cross the NZ.

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2022, 06:34:00 AM »
Calhoun nailed it  aWaRd !!!

In the real world (Houlton,Maine) , I  ^flag for the illegal kick BUT forgot that we had just passed a rule that made THAT illegal kick to be treated as a legal kick and now ,with the tack-on penalty, have brought the ball down to K's 4 and R's ball  :-[. Depending on game situation, either 2 points + the ball (safety) or getting the ball at their 4 would be viable choices and needed to be made by R's coach. 10-4-2 Exception covers this .

It took me several plays to realize that I ,too, had kicked this  pi1eOn. It took me halfway (128 miles Houlton-Bangor) to admit this to my crew on our ride home. I bought the first and only round and our favorite gathering spot  eAt&.

EPILOGUE: R won the game 40-6. I made the mistake of : "SAFETY, LET'S KICKOFF FROM THE 20, NOTHING ELSE TO SEE HERE... :-[ ".  A mistake I'll never make again  :-[.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2022, 08:13:46 AM »
So, it appears that NFHS and NCAA align on these rules. That's a bit amazing, don't ya think?  :D

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2022, 08:53:28 AM »
So, it appears that NFHS and NCAA align on these rules. That's a bit amazing, don't ya think?  :D
Our change came it two parts : Tack-on rule - 2018 & illegal kick rule -2014. The supporting plays that prompted these changes....

Tack-on :  Short punt, R watching ball roll WHEN K's big ole' Bubba levels lil' teeny Smitty = decline previous spot foul to get good field position.

Illegal kick : Legal forward pass kicked out of air by Hans ( a European soccer star, turned D-back in hopes of dating the prom queen). Officials wrongly made the 'right' call of incomplete pass after illegal kick had reached Earth...shoulda' been a fumble.

Along with rule changes, often come unintended consequences and IMHO, both have. In NFHS code, tack-on would apply to a missed FG...shanked FG thru EZ w/IF = R @ R's 25. I believe NCAA excludes FGA. Illegal kick could be applied to a blocked FG where K IKs bouncing ball thru the pipes. That would cause the IK to become a legal FGA and force R to accept the penalty to prevent the score.

I'LL SUPPORT THOSE YOUNGER AND SPRYER THAN ME TO FIGHT THOSE BATTLES... tR:oLl

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2022, 11:55:09 AM »
Quote
Wow. Come on over Texas site for a different ruling using NCAA rules.

I struggled with this one.  No way I'm crawling through that minefield.  Thanks anyway.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2022, 12:31:39 PM »
I struggled with this one.  No way I'm crawling through that minefield.  Thanks anyway.

Well, the good news s is that, for this specific set of circumstances, NFHS and NCAA appear to align, if that is of any consolation.  ;D

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2022, 12:56:33 PM »
I struggled with this one.  No way I'm crawling through that minefield.  Thanks anyway.
Understood, I got it wrong  :-[ on the field. After the game I felt better....
(1) It didn't have any impact on the outcome of the game;
(2) R's coach got it wrong, too, as he felt I knew what I was talking about  :) !

HERE'S ANOTHER TESTER......

(1) A fumbles at A's 5;
(2) B recovers at A's 5 w/ 0:04 to go in half;
(3) they quickly rush their regular FG unit in and split the pipes as time expires.
(4) I calmly signal  ^good and prepare for my halftime nap.

During my nap, I awoke in fear, had I kicked another one  :!#

.....What should I have been looking for  ??? ???

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2022, 02:02:14 PM »
Understood, I got it wrong  :-[ on the field. After the game I felt better....
(1) It didn't have any impact on the outcome of the game;
(2) R's coach got it wrong, too, as he felt I knew what I was talking about  :) !

HERE'S ANOTHER TESTER......

(1) A fumbles at A's 5;
(2) B recovers at A's 5 w/ 0:04 to go in half;
(3) they quickly rush their regular FG unit in and split the pipes as time expires.
(4) I calmly signal  ^good and prepare for my halftime nap.

During my nap, I awoke in fear, had I kicked another one  :!#

.....What should I have been looking for  ??? ???

With NFHS 3-4-3b in mind, Exact clock status at recovery. (Good idea) to give both audible & visual RFP and be aware of exact clock  status when kickers foot hit the ball.  I hope you went back to sleep with a clear conscience.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 02:05:44 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2022, 03:42:45 PM »
Uh, I remembered that, Al . What I had forgotten was our spiffy new rule to hamper A-XI. I had proposed NCAA's " If a scrimmage kick is apparent" but was voted down, I guess maybe it was too simple. Our new rule (7-2-5 Exception) took 11 lines regarding the numbering exception. my halftime nightmare :

(1) FG team rushed in;
(2) I sent BJ & wing under the pipes;
(3) kick sailed thru pipes;
(4) off to your halftime hideaway.

It was there that I  hEaDbAnG recalled ONLY the snapper can have a numbering exception during downs 1-3  :puke: . I hadn't looked  :-[.

Before the 2nd half began, I asked the kicker's coach.....

ME : "Your score stands, BUT what were the numbers of your linemen on your FG ?"
COACH : "My regular kicking team, linesmen had numbers of 88,51,45,39, 62 , 44 & 17 ::) "
ME : "Remember our spiffy new rule, only the snapper can have an exception unless it's on 4th down  :-[ !"
COACH : "I didn't remember that part, I'm a guessing you didn't either  ;D "
ME : "AYUH, 'spect so  tR:oLl

There wasn't a need to rush, as COP started clock on the snap.

SEE IT, THINK IT, CALL IT......LESS BAD WILL HAPPEN
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 05:57:08 AM by Ralph Damren »

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Don't kick yourself if you kick a kick play......
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2022, 07:49:21 AM »
Try this one, guys. Actually occurred a few years ago in a JV game up here......

SCENE : 4th & 10 @ A's 40, when:

(1) K1 punts;
(2) kick blocked by R1;
(3) R2 scoops up ball and begins to advance;
(4) R2 is tackled @ K'20 & fumbles;
(5) K1 retrieves fumble and kicks again;
(6) 'kick' goes OOB @ K's 45.

USING CURRENT RULES, YOU MAKE THE CALL  ^good ^no ^TD  ^talk z^ ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag