Author Topic: 10 seconds runoff when incomplete illegal forward pass.  (Read 4266 times)

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Offline frank.malone

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10 seconds runoff when incomplete illegal forward pass.
« on: February 16, 2019, 04:19:09 AM »
Hello,
according the 3.4.4 rule, there are a 10 sec substraction when the foul is an incomplete illegal forward pass.
My doubt is why. If we read the 3.4.4.b: the 10 second rule does not apply if the game clock is not running when the foul occurs or if the foul does not cause the game clock to stop immediately.
The incomplete pass stops the clock so, the foul itself does not cause the stop of the clock. Why the rule includes this case to the 10sec substraction?
I can understand it if the illegal forward pass is made to stop the clock, rule 7.3.2-f,g and h. but the illegal forward pass according rule 7.3.2-a,b,c,d and e is not made to conserve time.

Any suggestions will be very appreciate.

Regards
Frank.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: 10 seconds runoff when incomplete illegal forward pass.
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2019, 09:01:27 AM »
Frank,

Although, highly unlikely, a scenario like this could happen:

A, 2/10, B-15, A=14, B=21, 0:07 (4), A has exhausted their times out.  A11 takes the snap and advances to the B-10, where he is surrounded by opponents, and his tackle at that point is imminent.  Although he may know it will be a foul and a penalty, A11 throws the ball forward into the ground, for an incomplete forward pass.  The game clock is stopped for the incomplete pass and to complete the penalty for the illegal forward pass, with 0:02 on the game clock.

Without the 10-second subtraction (which also means the clock would start on the referee's signal) Team A would be able to run another play, effectively, gaining an extra "time out."  But, with the 10-second subtraction, the game is over, negating the unfair game clock tactic.

Other scenarios can be presented that still leave some time on the game clock, and the game would continue, but only after subtracting 10 valuable seconds from the game clock, and starting the game clock on the Referee's signal.  Also, if, after the 10-second subtraction, the game clock is at 0:02 or 0:01, Team will not be able to "spike" the ball to stop the clock.  Sadly, with a score differential of 3 or less, Team A might be able to use the administrative interruption to get their field goal team in place while the penalty is being completed, and then kick the game winning field goal, even with just 1 second on the game clock when the Referee's signals to start the clock.  That doesn't seem entirely fair, either.  But "them's the rules" as we say in West Texas.

But, that would take a really, really smart and aware player to pull that off.  Like, say, Tom Brady....
     

Offline bossman72

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Re: 10 seconds runoff when incomplete illegal forward pass.
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2019, 10:18:02 PM »
Hello,
according the 3.4.4 rule, there are a 10 sec substraction when the foul is an incomplete illegal forward pass.
My doubt is why. If we read the 3.4.4.b: the 10 second rule does not apply if the game clock is not running when the foul occurs or if the foul does not cause the game clock to stop immediately.
The incomplete pass stops the clock so, the foul itself does not cause the stop of the clock. Why the rule includes this case to the 10sec substraction?
I can understand it if the illegal forward pass is made to stop the clock, rule 7.3.2-f,g and h. but the illegal forward pass according rule 7.3.2-a,b,c,d and e is not made to conserve time.

Any suggestions will be very appreciate.

Regards
Frank.

Frank,

The incomplete pass IS the foul.  Therefore, it (the foul) caused the clock to stop immediately.

That's why we have a runoff for an incomplete illegal forward pass and not for a completed one.

Offline theunofficialofficial

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Re: 10 seconds runoff when incomplete illegal forward pass.
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2019, 07:14:51 PM »
Frank,

Although, highly unlikely, a scenario like this could happen:

A, 2/10, B-15, A=14, B=21, 0:07 (4), A has exhausted their times out.  A11 takes the snap and advances to the B-10, where he is surrounded by opponents, and his tackle at that point is imminent.  Although he may know it will be a foul and a penalty, A11 throws the ball forward into the ground, for an incomplete forward pass.  The game clock is stopped for the incomplete pass and to complete the penalty for the illegal forward pass, with 0:02 on the game clock.

Without the 10-second subtraction (which also means the clock would start on the referee's signal) Team A would be able to run another play, effectively, gaining an extra "time out."  But, with the 10-second subtraction, the game is over, negating the unfair game clock tactic.

Other scenarios can be presented that still leave some time on the game clock, and the game would continue, but only after subtracting 10 valuable seconds from the game clock, and starting the game clock on the Referee's signal.  Also, if, after the 10-second subtraction, the game clock is at 0:02 or 0:01, Team will not be able to "spike" the ball to stop the clock.  Sadly, with a score differential of 3 or less, Team A might be able to use the administrative interruption to get their field goal team in place while the penalty is being completed, and then kick the game winning field goal, even with just 1 second on the game clock when the Referee's signals to start the clock.  That doesn't seem entirely fair, either.  But "them's the rules" as we say in West Texas.

But, that would take a really, really smart and aware player to pull that off.  Like, say, Tom Brady....
   


I had this exact situation occur last year in a game. Close game before half (A = 14 B = 21) , A 1/10 B-18 0:15 on clock and running. A23 runs to the B-5, knowing time is short and as he is being tackled he pitches the ball forward to B2 standing at the B-1 B2 drops the ball and it lands incomplete. The clock read 0:02 seconds. Bean bags and flags go flying.  z^ z^ z^ z^ z^  came together and put it all together and we went to half time.

Offline Morningrise

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Re: 10 seconds runoff when incomplete illegal forward pass.
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2019, 07:57:15 AM »
The incomplete pass stops the clock so, the foul itself does not cause the stop of the clock.

That was my reaction, too, when the rule was added. The officials signal and the clock stops *when* a player commits a false start, but it doesn't stop *when* he lets an illegal forward pass leave his hand. The play continues, maybe for one more second if the pass falls incomplete, but maybe indefinitely if the pass is caught. Or maybe it gets muffed one thousand times and *finally* hits the ground. The point is, the fouling action happens at time X but the officials signal and the clock stops *later* at time Y.

So why does IFP still count as a foul that stops the clock? Because the rules specifically say to count it as such.

That's what they want the penalty for an IFP to be. If you're saving time by dumping the ball, then you're fouling in order to stop the clock, and they want that to result in a runoff. Don't worry about the fact that it's not really a blow-and-throw. They want it to be a runoff anyway.

Offline theunofficialofficial

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Re: 10 seconds runoff when incomplete illegal forward pass.
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2019, 11:20:58 AM »
That was my reaction, too, when the rule was added. The officials signal and the clock stops *when* a player commits a false start, but it doesn't stop *when* he lets an illegal forward pass leave his hand. The play continues, maybe for one more second if the pass falls incomplete, but maybe indefinitely if the pass is caught. Or maybe it gets muffed one thousand times and *finally* hits the ground. The point is, the fouling action happens at time X but the officials signal and the clock stops *later* at time Y.

So why does IFP still count as a foul that stops the clock? Because the rules specifically say to count it as such.

That's what they want the penalty for an IFP to be. If you're saving time by dumping the ball, then you're fouling in order to stop the clock, and they want that to result in a runoff. Don't worry about the fact that it's not really a blow-and-throw. They want it to be a runoff anyway.


So remember that an IFP does not always have to be incomplete. You can have a runner beyond the LOS throw a forward pass that is caught and run for an apparent touchdown. The clock does not stop automatically in this situtation, it is live ball foul. So by putting the language in that this penalty does have a 10s zap closes the loop on it.

Offline Morningrise

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Re: 10 seconds runoff when incomplete illegal forward pass.
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2019, 02:13:33 PM »
Actually, the illegal forward pass *does* have to fall incomplete for there to be a runoff. (3-4-4-a-2, 3-4-4-a-3)

Actually, wait a minute... 3-4-4-a-2 mentions intentional grounding, 3-4-4-a-3 mentions incomplete illegal forward passes e.g. a "forward lateral" hitting the ground. But it is technically possible to have a foul for "intentional grounding" that never actually hits the ground.

3rd and 15 at the A-40 with 0:54 remaining in the half. QB A11 never escapes the tackle box. About to be sacked at the A-32, he throws a pass where no eligible receiver is in the area. Instead, A77 catches the pass and takes it to the house. The referee explains that his flag is for intentional grounding, not illegal touching or ineligible downfield, because the latter two fouls only apply to legal forward passes, whereas intentional grounding is an illegal forward pass.

That wouldn't count for a ten-second runoff because of 3-4-4-a-2, would it? I'm pretty sure that's not the intent of the rule - it talks elsewhere about causing the clock to stop "immediately," not when A77 finishes rumbling down the field - but you never know.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: 10 seconds runoff when incomplete illegal forward pass.
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2019, 02:15:56 PM »

So remember that an IFP does not always have to be incomplete. You can have a runner beyond the LOS throw a forward pass that is caught and run for an apparent touchdown. The clock does not stop automatically in this situtation, it is live ball foul. So by putting the language in that this penalty does have a 10s zap closes the loop on it.

T-U-O, I don't believe this is correct.  The rule specifically requires the illegal forward pass to be incomplete (or intentional grounding, which would be incomplete from behind the NZ).  The rule was designed to prevent a blatant abuse of the clock rules.  Throwing an illegal completed pass is not a blatant attempt to abuse the clock, because the foul does not stop the clock immediately, as it does when the pass in incomplete.  Because an incomplete illegal forward pass is included in the list of qualifying fouls, that means this foul does, indeed, cause the clock to stop (at least in these cases).  And that is why the 10-second subtraction is an available option for the offended team, under the qualifying circumstances.  Completing a pass to a teammate or an opponent does not qualify for the 10-second subtraction.

Is there an opportunity there to take advantage of the clock rules?  Maybe.  But it would take an incredibly astute and gifted player to recognize those circumstances and make the play.  I doubt even Tom Brady is that good.

Robert

Offline Magician

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Re: 10 seconds runoff when incomplete illegal forward pass.
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2019, 02:51:41 PM »
I've always had the thought ZAP10 applies when the foul is the reason the clock stopped or it was an intentional grounding to conserve time (which theoretically they all are in the last minute) because that makes sense. Don't let them gain an advantage by fouling even if the foul wasn't done intentionally to stop the clock.

Online Kalle

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Re: 10 seconds runoff when incomplete illegal forward pass.
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2019, 01:36:20 AM »
That wouldn't count for a ten-second runoff because of 3-4-4-a-2, would it? I'm pretty sure that's not the intent of the rule - it talks elsewhere about causing the clock to stop "immediately," not when A77 finishes rumbling down the field - but you never know.

I have a very bad track record in anticipating what the NCAA rules makers want :) but I agree, I would not enforce a runoff in that scenario. The foul was just another live-ball foul, and none of those qualify for runoff.