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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: Ralph Damren on December 15, 2023, 01:55:20 PM
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As always, I enjoy in reading and value your opinions. I often use some of them in the upcoming debates. Please offer yours.
(1) Equipment Cops: more coloring rules on home jerseys, Pants covering thigh pads only needed. Sweat bands,any eye shadow and play cards can be worn anywhere. Equipment missing = TO charged to player's team.
(2) Holder's knee only nears to be NEAR ground.
(3) Major PF's are : Targeting, RTP/S/H,K, horse collar & DBPF by same player; on 2nd = :thumbup.
(4) Drop kick only if as ball touches ground.
(5) Reciever remains 'defensless' for first two steps.
(6) Fumble OOB W/less than 2 min.= start clock on RFP.
(7) Run clock during 1st down by A.
(8) Forward fumble > OOB > spot of fumble . Clock starts whwn ball back inbounds.
(9) Foul on K only if free kick is beyond field of play when touched by OOB R.
(10) Late in half/game, FGA prior to 4th down= OK with # exception.
(11) IFP if QB went beyond LOS, then behind to pass.
(12) Make IG a spot foul w/o any yardage.
(13) Reduce DPI to 10 /yds AND add AFD.
(14) Add AFD if DPI
(15) DBPF > USC , 2 USC + :thumbup
(16) Fouls by B > B's 30, consider if full 15 would create 1st down.
(17) PF if by B = AFD.
(18 - 25) Proposals aimed at correcting/ clairfy/re-writing Rule 10.
Thank you for taking time tp respond. Happy Holidays to you and yours aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd
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As always, I enjoy in reading and value your opinions. I often use some of them in the upcoming debates. Please offer yours.
(1) Equipment Cops: more coloring rules on home jerseys, Pants covering thigh pads only needed. Sweat bands,any eye shadow and play cards can be worn anywhere. Equipment missing = TO charged to player's team.
(2) Holder's knee only nears to be NEAR ground.
(3) Major PF's are : Targeting, RTP/S/H,K, horse collar & DBPF by same player; on 2nd = :thumbup.
(4) Drop kick only if as ball touches ground.
(5) Reciever remains 'defensless' for first two steps.
(6) Fumble OOB W/less than 2 min.= start clock on RFP.
(7) Run clock during 1st down by A.
(8) Forward fumble > OOB > spot of fumble . Clock starts whwn ball back inbounds.
(9) Foul on K only if free kick is beyond field of play when touched by OOB R.
(10) Late in half/game, FGA prior to 4th down= OK with # exception.
(11) IFP if QB went beyond LOS, then behind to pass.
(12) Make IG a spot foul w/o any yardage.
(13) Reduce DPI to 10 /yds AND add AFD.
(14) Add AFD if DPI
(15) DBPF > USC , 2 USC + :thumbup
(16) Fouls by B > B's 30, consider if full 15 would create 1st down.
(17) PF if by B = APD.
(18 - 25) Proposals aimed at correcting/ clairfy/re-writing Rule 10.
Thank you for taking time tp respond. Happy Holidays to you and yours aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd
1. That appears to be the way it is administered now.
2. No. The current rule is fine.
3. No.
4. No. The current rule is sufficient. I have not seen one in 50 years anyway.
5. No.
6. OK.
7. OK.
8. No. The current rule is sufficient.
9. Yes.
10. OK, but define "late".
11. OK.
12. OK.
13. NO. Unless Lod is returned to OPI.
14. See #13.
15. No.
16. No.
17. No.
18. Yes.
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Ralph, are these 18 propose rules changes going to consider changing for 2024.
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1.NO 2. NO 3. NO 4. NO 5. NO. 6.NO. 7. NO. 8. NO. 9. NO. 10. NO. 11. NO. 12. NO. 13. NO.14 YES. 15. NO. 16. NO. 17. YES. 18-25. YES.
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Ralph, are these the only propose rules changes there going to considered for 2024. What about unsportmanlike conduct foul by defense automatic 1st down. Also on the 2023 NFHS Rules questionnaire. Encroachment being a live ball foul.
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1. No
2. No
3. No
4. Yes
5. No
6. Yes
7. No
8. Yes
9. No
10. Yes
11. Yes
12. Yes
13. No
14. Yes
15. Yes
16. Yes
17. Yes
18-25 - Only if first vetted by the Refstripes discussion board :)
26. Require players to wear pull over knee pads along this type of thing (out of the box thought but none the less)
https://kneesafe.com/knee-pad-types/
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As always, I enjoy in reading and value your opinions. I often use some of them in the upcoming debates. Please offer yours.
(1) Equipment Cops: more coloring rules on home jerseys, Pants covering thigh pads only needed. Sweat bands,any eye shadow and play cards can be worn anywhere. Equipment missing = TO charged to player's team.
I can't recall a year when there hasn't been equipment rule changes. I think most coaches and officials are tired of them. In my area of the country, the only equipment issue seems to be hard to read numbers, which will hopefully be helped by the jersey rules that are already going into effect in 2024. So, the only changes that I support are:
- Play cards worn anywhere that they're allowed in college
- Get rid of the UNS against a coach for equipment. Continue to make them certify that everyone is legally and properly equipped, so that they're legally responsible. Then just send the kid out if he's not wearing proper equipment.
(2) Holder's knee only nears to be NEAR ground.
No
(3) Major PF's are : Targeting, RTP/S/H,K, horse collar & DBPF by same player; on 2nd = :thumbup.
No!
(4) Drop kick only if as ball touches ground.
No, not necessary.
(5) Reciever remains 'defensless' for first two steps.
No, not necessary. I thought that last year's clarification was fine.
(6) Fumble OOB W/less than 2 min.= start clock on RFP.
OK. No strong feelings on this.
(7) Run clock during 1st down by A.
OK. But I don't think it's necessary. I'd put in a rule to wind after going OOB above 2 minutes, before I'd do this.
(8) Forward fumble > OOB > spot of fumble . Clock starts whwn ball back inbounds.
Yes
(9) Foul on K only if free kick is beyond field of play when touched by OOB R.
No
(10) Late in half/game, FGA prior to 4th down= OK with # exception.
Yes. This rule was originally written way too complicated. Just say that it's ok when in scrimmage kick formation and a kick is obvious.
(11) IFP if QB went beyond LOS, then behind to pass.
Yes
(12) Make IG a spot foul w/o any yardage.
Yes
(13) Reduce DPI to 10 /yds AND add AFD.
No! I'm ok with AFD, but not reducing it to 10 yds. You could make it the same as college if you want to (spot foul when less than 15), but I think that rule is too complicated for many high school officials and coaches.
(14) Add AFD if DPI
Yes! Just add an AFD to DPI and be done with it.
(15) DBPF > USC , 2 USC + :thumbup
I think this means that they're proposing the college rule. Dead ball action clearly after the play = UNS. And if that's what you mean, then Yes.
(16) Fouls by B > B's 30, consider if full 15 would create 1st down.
No
(17) PF if by B = APD.
Don't care.
(18 - 25) Proposals aimed at correcting/ clairfy/re-writing Rule 10.
Sounds scary that there 8 proposals just to try to correct the Editorial Committee's mess-up. But yeah, that needs fixing either with a rule change or a better job by the Editorial Committee.
Thank you for taking time tp respond. Happy Holidays to you and yours aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd
I'm generally in favor of rules that bring things closer to college. And the main reason for that is that from what I've observed, people just don't know the high school rules as well as they should. That includes coaches, players, and officials. I've been disappointed to see some of the things that officials come up with in games I've watched. So keep things safe, simple, and as close as possible to what they see on Saturday.
That's not a knock against anyone on here. I know that you all work at knowing the rules. But I'm talking about what I've observed in general around my state.
Thanks Ralph! Happy Holidays!
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As always, I enjoy in reading and value your opinions. I often use some of them in the upcoming debates. Please offer yours.
(1) Equipment Cops: more coloring rules on home jerseys, Pants covering thigh pads only needed. Sweat bands,any eye shadow and play cards can be worn anywhere. Equipment missing = TO charged to player's team.
I don't like the charged time out, but being lax on everything else I am a fan.
(2) Holder's knee only nears to be NEAR ground.
Meh... don't change it.
(3) Major PF's are : Targeting, RTP/S/H,K, horse collar & DBPF by same player; on 2nd = :thumbup.
I'm not sure I like this. Maybe TGT only. Lots of these are incidental and don't warrant ejection, IMO.
(4) Drop kick only if as ball touches ground.
Did this really need addressed? lol
(5) Reciever remains 'defensless' for first two steps.
No, leave it alone.
(6) Fumble OOB W/less than 2 min.= start clock on RFP.
No, no need in HS.
(7) Run clock during 1st down by A.
No.
(8) Forward fumble > OOB > spot of fumble . Clock starts whwn ball back inbounds.
No need in HS.
(9) Foul on K only if free kick is beyond field of play when touched by OOB R.
Yes, to comply with the case book plays and get rid of IP in this scenaro.
(10) Late in half/game, FGA prior to 4th down= OK with # exception.
Maybe add "It's obvious a kick would be attempted" to the SKF rule instead of using downs.
(11) IFP if QB went beyond LOS, then behind to pass.
Sure.
(12) Make IG a spot foul w/o any yardage.
No need to change a fundamental for this one.
(13) Reduce DPI to 10 /yds AND add AFD.
No.
(14) Add AFD if DPI
Sure
(15) DBPF > USC , 2 USC + :thumbup
If this is saying that you have the option to convert DBPF's to UNS, then yes.
(16) Fouls by B > B's 30, consider if full 15 would create 1st down.
No (I'm not sure what this is saying).
(17) PF if by B = AFD.
Sure.
(18 - 25) Proposals aimed at correcting/ clairfy/re-writing Rule 10.
Yep, it needs it for sure.
Thank you for taking time tp respond. Happy Holidays to you and yours aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd
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Thanks, guys, for your response. There seems to need some clairity around 16 & 17.....
(16) Fouls by B inside of B's 30 , we would consider - but not measure - if the full 15 would create a new series...A @ B's 20, 3rd & 12, ^flag 15 yarder on B Ball would be moved to B's 10, BUT where the full 15 would have created a new series = 1/10 @ 10.......Anyone a CPA ;) ???
(17)All personal fouls by B create an automatic first down....Pardon my poor 'shorthand' pi1eOn
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Let's just adopt the Rules; we're headed that way anyway
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I meant to include the word "NCAA" rules
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1 - Indifferent (I'll do what I'm told)
2 - Sure
3 - No
4 - Indifferent (so rare)
5 - Indifferent (realistically enforced similar to that already)
6 - I like as a college guy too, but it's another weird exception
7 - No (at least not until all of college does - it makes so little difference with an efficient R)
8 - Yes
9 - No (rare)
10 - Sure
11 - Sure
12 - Indifferent
13 - Big no
14 - Yes (usually is, occasionally hurts A when close to scoring without this change)
15 - Yes only if DBPF is clearly late (non-football act)... not because he got hit 1 step OOB
16 - Sure - maybe better than 14
17 - Yes
18-25 - Please!
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For the first time in a +/- 40-yr career, there’s nothing that I have strong feelings about changing (assuming Rule 10 will be fixed). #9 would come closest. I’d also like to adopt the NCAA “immediate continuing action” provision for an IW, but I’m not holding my breath.
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As always, I enjoy in reading and value your opinions. I often use some of them in the upcoming debates. Please offer yours.
(1) Equipment Cops: more coloring rules on home jerseys, Pants covering thigh pads only needed. Sweat bands,any eye shadow and play cards can be worn anywhere. Equipment missing = TO charged to player's team.
Tired of being the equipment police
(2) Holder's knee only nears to be NEAR ground.
Don't care
(3) Major PF's are : Targeting, RTP/S/H,K, horse collar & DBPF by same player; on 2nd = :thumbup.
No, we can eject if we think it is warranted
(4) Drop kick only if as ball touches ground.
So rare who cares
(5) Reciever remains 'defensless' for first two steps.
No leave it a judgement
(6) Fumble OOB W/less than 2 min.= start clock on RFP.
Not needed
(7) Run clock during 1st down by A.
Yes
(8) Forward fumble > OOB > spot of fumble . Clock starts whwn ball back inbounds.
No
(9) Foul on K only if free kick is beyond field of play when touched by OOB R.
No
(10) Late in half/game, FGA prior to 4th down= OK with # exception.
Might as well, I bet most crews don't enforce it now
(11) IFP if QB went beyond LOS, then behind to pass.
Yes
(12) Make IG a spot foul w/o any yardage.
Don't care one way or another
(13) Reduce DPI to 10 /yds AND add AFD.
No
(14) Add AFD if DPI
Wishy Washy on this
(15) DBPF > USC , 2 USC + :thumbup
No
(16) Fouls by B > B's 30, consider if full 15 would create 1st down.
I'm a CPA and don't want to do the math
(17) PF if by B = AFD.
NO
(18 - 25) Proposals aimed at correcting/ clairfy/re-writing Rule 10.
Isn't it obvious Rule 10 has to be fixed
Thank you for taking time tp respond. Happy Holidays to you and yours aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd
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I don't like having the clock run on first downs at the NFHS level. You get some really bad chain crews and moving the chains is a bit more of a "production" than at the NCAA or NFL level. Would hate to see the clock affected by this in crunch time, or just as bad, team snaps before the chains get there and we forget where the LTG should be.
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Let's just adopt the NCAA rules; we're headed that way anyway
As has been noted many times before, that's never going to happen since the #1 source of income for NFHS is the fees for the various forms of the rulebooks (hardcopy, electronic, etc).
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Do yall pay any kind of dues or membership for NFHS? I get it's a big revenue stream for them, but dang. seems crazy to not have them freely available.
Just for comparison purposes, in Texas we pay I think $75/year for membership in TASO, which gets us a hard copy of the NCAA rulebook.
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1.NO
2. NO
3.EMPHATIC NO!
4. YES
5. NO
6.NO
7.YES
8. NO
9.NO
10. YES
11.EMPHATIC NO! Should remain ok as long as QB behind los when he passes.
12. NOOOOOOOOOOO!
13. No
14. Yes
15. ???
16.NO
17.NOOOOOOO!
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Do yall pay any kind of dues or membership for NFHS? I get it's a big revenue stream for them, but dang. seems crazy to not have them freely available.
Just for comparison purposes, in Texas we pay I think $75/year for membership in TASO, which gets us a hard copy of the NCAA rulebook.
My state (AZ) and most others purchase the rulebooks from the NFHS and you in turn pay the state for it in your dues.
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Do yall pay any kind of dues or membership for NFHS? I get it's a big revenue stream for them, but dang. seems crazy to not have them freely available.
Just for comparison purposes, in Texas we pay I think $75/year for membership in TASO, which gets us a hard copy of the NCAA rulebook.
Our Chapter likely pays for NFHS Membership, and our Chapter dues include provision of all related NFHS publications and access to NFHS major publications (Rule, Case Book, etc. as well as any necessary NFHS publications and/or updates/changes). Level Rule differences pose an additional personal challenge to working simultaneously at multiple levels ( like being able to converse in multiple languages).
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This applies to any set of rules for American football, for the sake of cosmetic dignity:
- Require jersey sleeves or matching color undershirt sleeves to extend to the elbow of both arms.
- Require legs to be covered from the top of the shoes to the pants - NO EXPOSED LEG SKIN.
- Require the full circumference of the jersey, or matching color undershirt, to be tucked into the pants - NO EXPOSED BODY SKIN, under any playing condition, i.e., while inactively standing or actively performing.
- Require all players to have a single mouthpiece attached to their facemask, and worn in the mouth on every down, OR
- Eliminate the requirement for a mouthpiece.
- Eliminate all blocks below the waist. (Oh, yeah, NF already has that...)
- Prohibit the reduction in field lighting to less than 25 lumens at the field level whenever squad members, in or out of uniform, of either team are on the field.
- Prohibit any band from playing or making any discernable noise once the ball is ready for play for the opening kickoff until the game is declared over, except during a charged team timeout, media timeout, or between periods.
- Require all game sites to have visible play clocks.
- Require all game sites to have a referee's field microphone, with lapel style microphone (head/ear mounted microphones not permitted).
- Require both teams to each have a minimum of 3 balls persons, with at least one stationed on each sideline during the game. (The third person would be a 'runner' to keep their balls balanced between both sidelines).
- Require that all pre-game activity - including the national anthem and school songs - is completed and the field is completely clear not later than 5 minutes before kickoff - subject to penalty. And,
- Require that the visiting team enter the field NLT 4:30 before kickoff and captains must be at the 50 yard line at their sideline NLT 4:00 before kickoff - subject to penalty. And,
- Require that the home team enter the field NLT 4:00 before kickoff and captains must be at the 50 yard line at their sideline NLT 3:30 before kickoff - subject to penalty.
- Coin toss shall be executed at 3:00 before kickoff - no exceptions.
- The Home team shall ensure that there will be separate game clock and play clock operators, and that both shall report to the officials dressing room at 60 minutes prior to the game for a brief conference with the Referee - subject to penalty.
- Home team shall ensure that there will be a chain crew of not fewer than four persons above the age of 12, and that they shall report to the field, with the full set of down and line-to-gain equipment NLT than 30 minutes before the kickoff for a conference with the Head Line Judge - subject to penalty.
- The Home team shall ensure that a licensed peace officer with jurisdiction at the game site is on duty when the game officials arrive on site, and who shall remain in close proximity of game officials throughout the contest, and shall escort the game officials between their dressing facility and the field, and from their dressing facility to their vehicles, and who shall ensure the safe arrival and departure of the game officials to/from the game site, and beyond, as may be necessary.
- The Home team shall ensure that the designated game administrator meets with the game officials when they arrive on site, and is available to assist the game officials throughout the contest.
- The Home team shall ensure that there is a secure dressing facility for the game officials that does not require the game officials to pass through any team dressing room, coaches offices, training room, or any other space that may be occupied or available to any other person during the time the game officials are on site.
- If the secure dressing facility for the game officials is greater than 50 yards from the playing field, the Home team shall ensure that there is transportation to and from the field, on demand.
I can probably think of more, but these are the things that are, typically, in 'policy' manuals, but need to be in the Rules.
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This applies to any set of rules for American football, for the sake of cosmetic dignity:
- Require jersey sleeves or matching color undershirt sleeves to extend to the elbow of both arms.
- Require legs to be covered from the top of the shoes to the pants - NO EXPOSED LEG SKIN.
- Require the full circumference of the jersey, or matching color undershirt, to be tucked into the pants - NO EXPOSED BODY SKIN, under any playing condition, i.e., while inactively standing or actively performing.
- Require all players to have a single mouthpiece attached to their facemask, and worn in the mouth on every down, OR
- Eliminate the requirement for a mouthpiece.
- Eliminate all blocks below the waist. (Oh, yeah, NF already has that...)
- Prohibit the reduction in field lighting to less than 25 lumens at the field level whenever squad members, in or out of uniform, of either team are on the field.
- Prohibit any band from playing or making any discernable noise once the ball is ready for play for the opening kickoff until the game is declared over, except during a charged team timeout, media timeout, or between periods.
- Require all game sites to have visible play clocks.
- Require all game sites to have a referee's field microphone, with lapel style microphone (head/ear mounted microphones not permitted).
- Require both teams to each have a minimum of 3 balls persons, with at least one stationed on each sideline during the game. (The third person would be a 'runner' to keep their balls balanced between both sidelines).
- Require that all pre-game activity - including the national anthem and school songs - is completed and the field is completely clear not later than 5 minutes before kickoff - subject to penalty. And,
- Require that the visiting team enter the field NLT 4:30 before kickoff and captains must be at the 50 yard line at their sideline NLT 4:00 before kickoff - subject to penalty. And,
- Require that the home team enter the field NLT 4:00 before kickoff and captains must be at the 50 yard line at their sideline NLT 3:30 before kickoff - subject to penalty.
- Coin toss shall be executed at 3:00 before kickoff - no exceptions.
- The Home team shall ensure that there will be separate game clock and play clock operators, and that both shall report to the officials dressing room at 60 minutes prior to the game for a brief conference with the Referee - subject to penalty.
- Home team shall ensure that there will be a chain crew of not fewer than four persons above the age of 12, and that they shall report to the field, with the full set of down and line-to-gain equipment NLT than 30 minutes before the kickoff for a conference with the Head Line Judge - subject to penalty.
- The Home team shall ensure that a licensed peace officer with jurisdiction at the game site is on duty when the game officials arrive on site, and who shall remain in close proximity of game officials throughout the contest, and shall escort the game officials between their dressing facility and the field, and from their dressing facility to their vehicles, and who shall ensure the safe arrival and departure of the game officials to/from the game site, and beyond, as may be necessary.
- The Home team shall ensure that the designated game administrator meets with the game officials when they arrive on site, and is available to assist the game officials throughout the contest.
- The Home team shall ensure that there is a secure dressing facility for the game officials that does not require the game officials to pass through any team dressing room, coaches offices, training room, or any other space that may be occupied or available to any other person during the time the game officials are on site.
- If the secure dressing facility for the game officials is greater than 50 yards from the playing field, the Home team shall ensure that there is transportation to and from the field, on demand.
I can probably think of more, but these are the things that are, typically, in 'policy' manuals, but need to be in the Rules.
Sadly, "Policy Manuals" much like common sense and good ideas, rarely live up to consistent intentions.
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(1) Equipment Cops: more coloring rules on home jerseys, Pants covering thigh pads only needed. Sweat bands,any eye shadow and play cards can be worn anywhere. Equipment missing = TO charged to player's team. Never understood why eye shadow was such a big deal. I'm good with allowing that.
(2) Holder's knee only nears to be NEAR ground. No. Leave as-is.
(3) Major PF's are : Targeting, RTP/S/H,K, horse collar & DBPF by same player; on 2nd = :thumbup.
maybe targeting and DBPF
(4) Drop kick only if as ball touches ground. Nah
(5) Reciever remains 'defensless' for first two steps. With 2023 rule, isn't receiver defenseless until he establishes himself as a runner? (completes the catch) Seems like this would be along those same lines...
(6) Fumble OOB W/less than 2 min.= start clock on RFP.
(7) Run clock during 1st down by A. Nah
(8) Forward fumble > OOB > spot of fumble . Clock starts whwn ball back inbounds.
(9) Foul on K only if free kick is beyond field of play when touched by OOB R.
(10) Late in half/game, FGA prior to 4th down= OK with # exception. Louisiana already has this rule, as long as the ball is kicked. (not just kick formation, literally need to kick the ball or it's a foul). Very rare occurrence, I didn't see it once all year.
(11) IFP if QB went beyond LOS, then behind to pass. So rare not sure it needs tweaking. But if this becomes a topic, it should include QB beyond LOS can lateral to teammate behind LOS who can then pass ball. Both should be included.
(12) Make IG a spot foul w/o any yardage. Meh. Leave as is I guess
(13) Reduce DPI to 10 /yds AND add AFD.
(14) Add AFD if DPI
(15) DBPF > USC , 2 USC + :thumbup
(16) Fouls by B > B's 30, consider if full 15 would create 1st down. Might want to consider 1st down facet on 15, 10, and 5 yd fouls, not just 15's. Same concept.
(17) PF if by B = AFD. Nah
(18 - 25) Proposals aimed at correcting/ clairfy/re-writing Rule 10.
Thank you for taking time tp respond. Happy Holidays to you and yours aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd
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(1) "All your players legally equipped and know that equipment rules are for their safety?" "A-yup" "Then if they don't wear knee pads and get hurt, it's on you/them." "A-yup". Charged timeout is excessive. Remove for a play if something is dangerous.
(2) Sure
(3) I'm not a fan of automatic ejection. Allow for ejection for repeated sub-flagrant fouls, sure, but I'd be hesitant for mandating it.
(4) Uh... is this a problem? I've never seen a drop kick attempted.
(5) If we're clarifying the existing rule, sure -- "Time to become a runner" = 2 steps?
(6) Sure, if paired with #8
(7) Only if we include the under-2:00 exception. First down clock stoppages are a strategy that would be too disruptive to remove entirely.
(8) Sure, if by back in bounds is "marked RFP" -- akin to the current first down silent wind.
(9) Yes. R should not be able to cause the kick to go OOB.
(10) Under 2 in the half, sure. FGA are so rare that I'd hate to penalize the team for a numbering violation because it was 3rd down.
(11) No.
(12) Yes
(13) I'd be for DPI to be a spot foul up to 15 yards.
(14) Not a fan of AFD on DPI. Maybe only if foul results in half the distance enforcement?
(15) No, for collateral damage. Let's say B56 hits a defenseless receiver, not targeting -- if the receiver missed the ball, it was a dead ball foul, but if he caught it, it was live ball? Could he be ejected if it was incomplete, but not if it was caught? I'd be willing to allow for a sub-flagrant category that can count as one of two for ejection, but not just "any DBPF". Invite me to the meeting and I'll work out a better proposal ;D
(16) Do we count the full 15, or is an AFD if 15 would have been a first down? I would vote AFD+half the distance if 15 would have been a first down (and this fixes my issues with DPI earlier as well). I might add the AFD if it was a GTG situation as well.
(17) Not universally. See #16.
(18 - 25) Uggh... please
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#4 being on the ballot reminds me of the year we all wanted to fix the illegal formation rule to count backs instead of linemen. Instead, we got a rule change regarding prosthetic limbs falling off.
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1. Official's TO & send them out, but eliminate eye black, play cards, even knee pads over the knee.
2. no
3. no
4. don't care, it never happens.
5. I hate Ohio's changing interpretation enough already.
6. no
7. yes
8. no
9. yes
10. yes
11. yes
12. no
13. yes
14. yes
15. no
16. no
17. no
18-25. YES
no
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#4 being on the ballot reminds me of the year we all wanted to fix the illegal formation rule to count backs instead of linemen. Instead, we got a rule change regarding prosthetic limbs falling off.
If I remember right that was in response to a RB losing his prosthetic in a game in Ohio the previous season.
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If I remember right that was in response to a RB losing his prosthetic in a game in Ohio the previous season.
It was. The officials quicky killed the play and treated it as an inadvertant whistle. The proosal stemmed from that and seemed like a good solution to a rare event.
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#4 being on the ballot reminds me of the year we all wanted to fix the illegal formation rule to count backs instead of linemen. Instead, we got a rule change regarding prosthetic limbs falling off.
The challenge might become the judgement machenics of this :o. It would seem that having the referee lay on his side ,peering at the ball arriving at Planet Earth , but beware of blocked kicks :!# !
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(1) YES
(2) NO
(3) NO.
(4) DONT CARE NEVER SEE IT USED.
(5) NO COACHES HAVING A HARD TIME WITH THE RULE NOW
(6) YES.
(7) NO
(8) YES Forward fumble > OOB > spot of fumble . Clock starts whwn ball back inbounds.
(9) YES
(10) NO
(11) YES ABOUT TIME
(12) NO
(13) NO
(14) NO
(15) NO
(16) YES
(17) NO
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As always, I enjoy in reading and value your opinions. I often use some of them in the upcoming debates. Please offer yours.
(1) Equipment Cops: more coloring rules on home jerseys, Pants covering thigh pads only needed. Sweat bands,any eye shadow and play cards can be worn anywhere. Equipment missing = TO charged to player's team.
(2) Holder's knee only nears to be NEAR ground.
(3) Major PF's are : Targeting, RTP/S/H,K, horse collar & DBPF by same player; on 2nd = :thumbup.
(4) Drop kick only if as ball touches ground.
(5) Reciever remains 'defensless' for first two steps.
(6) Fumble OOB W/less than 2 min.= start clock on RFP.
(7) Run clock during 1st down by A.
(8) Forward fumble > OOB > spot of fumble . Clock starts whwn ball back inbounds.
(9) Foul on K only if free kick is beyond field of play when touched by OOB R.
(10) Late in half/game, FGA prior to 4th down= OK with # exception.
(11) IFP if QB went beyond LOS, then behind to pass.
(12) Make IG a spot foul w/o any yardage.
(13) Reduce DPI to 10 /yds AND add AFD.
(14) Add AFD if DPI
(15) DBPF > USC , 2 USC + :thumbup
(16) Fouls by B > B's 30, consider if full 15 would create 1st down.
(17) PF if by B = AFD.
(18 - 25) Proposals aimed at correcting/ clairfy/re-writing Rule 10.
Thank you for taking time tp respond. Happy Holidays to you and yours aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd
Actually, if you really wanted to correct problems with #1, Making it a "CHARGED" Team T/O would likely reduce the actual frequency (liability) to 1 per team/per season. There might well be an initial "Great hue & cry", but the vast majority of Coaching Staffs, suffering an initial such penalty would be FOREVER motivated to guarantee NEVER suffering a repeat. Sometimes, you just have to get some people's attention.
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I'll be totaling up your opinions later this week and indicating mine. If anyone has anything left to say (post) please do so soon. Thanks to all for sharing your thoughts.
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Regarding Rules Changes:
Please eliminate the phrase "basic spot" from the Rules Book. The traditional use of the term basic spot was a step along the way when using the "all but one" principal for determining the enforcement spot. The current definition (Rule 2) is meaningless and the phrase only adds confusion to our enforcement thought process. Table 10-4 would be better to me if the column heading was changed from BASIC SPOT to ENFORCEMENT SPOT. Any other "special cases" (i.e. exceptions) could be handled by just stating the enforcement spot.
5. absolutely not re the 2 step
9. makes sense to me
10. ok with numbering exception anytime for field goal attempt -- most officials are oblivious to it anyway.
13. DPI should be spot foul and auto 1st down with a 15 yard max
Thanks for your considerations.
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Regarding Rules Changes:
Please eliminate the phrase "basic spot" from the Rules Book. The traditional use of the term basic spot was a step along the way when using the "all but one" principal for determining the enforcement spot. The current definition (Rule 2) is meaningless and the phrase only adds confusion to our enforcement thought process. Table 10-4 would be better to me if the column heading was changed from BASIC SPOT to ENFORCEMENT SPOT. Any other "special cases" (i.e. exceptions) could be handled by just stating the enforcement spot.
I've said the same thing. I don't think they should get rid of ABO. You still need to teach that.
The rule book used Basic Spot when they mean Enforcement spot quite often. I wouldn't totally eliminate Basic spot because that's still an important concept.
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I feel that "basic spot" only has significance to those of us that have used it and understood it for many years. If we were starting from scratch I don't think it is necessary. Look at the current definition --- it says it is a point of reference but doesn't say what that reference point is --- or how you determine where it is and how you use it on the field.
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I feel that "basic spot" only has significance to those of us that have used it and understood it for many years. If we were starting from scratch I don't think it is necessary. Look at the current definition --- it says it is a point of reference but doesn't say what that reference point is --- or how you determine where it is and how you use it on the field.
The current definition is a mess because they got rid of ABO and tried to patch over the holes that were left.
What they need to do is go back to the 2022 rule book as a starting point and try again. Basic spot, as a concept, can't be eliminated without fundamentally rewriting how penalties are enforced.
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13. DPI should be spot foul and auto 1st down with a 15 yard max.
While I agree in theory, this would be problematic in practice. Imagine training inexperienced officials to not only recognize and judge DPI, but to also accurately hit a spot with their flag.
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While I agree in theory, this would be problematic in practice. Imagine training inexperienced officials to not only recognize and judge DPI, but to also accurately hit a spot with their flag.
What? None of your fouls are ever enforced from the spot of the foul (so nobody ever has to get their flag on, at least, the correct yard line)? What about intentional grounding (or other illegal forward passes)? Blocking/personal fouls by the offense behind the end of the run (and beyond the NZ, when there is one)? If they need any of those spots, how are they any different than a DPI spot?
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What? None of your fouls are ever enforced from the spot of the foul (so nobody ever has to get their flag on, at least, the correct yard line)? What about intentional grounding (or other illegal forward passes)? Blocking/personal fouls by the offense behind the end of the run (and beyond the NZ, when there is one)? If they need any of those spots, how are they any different than a DPI spot?
Fouls that happen during a play, all types of plays, can happen at various points along the play. Most often a flag is thrown when the improper behavior is noticed and the play continues, and the violation is identified, by signal, when the play is complete. That process has worked forEVER and is recognized & accepted. The foul is recognized as providing an unfair advantage to one team, who often continues advancing the play, and/or provides a penalty for fouling. the fouled team, who has a CHOICE. They can add the penalty from the spot of the foul, and repeat the down, or decline the penalty and accept the result of their play.
Pass Interference is somewhat different, in that the interference at one point, often disrupts the ability of the fouled team to successfully complete the remained of their plan, and a heavy (15 yards) is added to the point where the play started and the down repeated. If the play was successfully completed, the offended team again, has the choice to accept the previous spot penalty, and repeat of the down or the result of the play. In a considerable majority of instances, the result of either decision results in a 1st Down.
Automatically declaring the result of DPI, in all circumstances, an automic 1st down, seems an excessive addition to an already serious penalty.
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Fouls that happen during a play, all types of plays, can happen at various points along the play. Most often a flag is thrown when the improper behavior is noticed and the play continues, and the violation is identified, by signal, when the play is complete. That process has worked forEVER and is recognized & accepted. The foul is recognized as providing an unfair advantage to one team, who often continues advancing the play, and/or provides a penalty for fouling. the fouled team, who has a CHOICE. They can add the penalty from the spot of the foul, and repeat the down, or decline the penalty and accept the result of their play.
Pass Interference is somewhat different, in that the interference at one point, often disrupts the ability of the fouled team to successfully complete the remained of their plan, and a heavy (15 yards) is added to the point where the play started and the down repeated. If the play was successfully completed, the offended team again, has the choice to accept the previous spot penalty, and repeat of the down or the result of the play. In a considerable majority of instances, the result of either decision results in a 1st Down.
Automatically declaring the result of DPI, in all circumstances, an automic 1st down, seems an excessive addition to an already serious penalty.
Thanks, Al. That's helpful. ::)
But that is not at all what my question and comments are about. This is not about the wisdom or fairness of the penalty itself. This is about identifying the spot of the foul, when necessary. If the penalty (for any applicable foul) is enforced at the spot of the foul (as is noted above in bold italics), how does anybody know where that spot is? That is what this discussion is all about. If other fouls are sometimes penalized from the spot of the foul, then the necessity of marking those spots, as accurately as practical, is no different than marking the spot of the foul for DPI. The technique of placing a foul marker at least on the related yard line - if not the precise 2D spot on the field - is one that every official will need to have, regardless if DPI is, or is not, a spot foul. I am confident that, with patient training, inexperienced officials can pick up this skill quite quickly, and adeptly. They'll have to - for all of those other fouls that are, at least sometimes, penalized from the spot of the foul. I am not saying that the rule change should, or should not, be adopted. I am only saying that the ability of officials to mark the spot of the foul should not be something that dictates whether the rule change is considered.
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With the impending power outages we Mainers face, I felt today would be a good day to post the results and my opinions. Please note that not everyone answered every proposal, hence not all totalled the same number of votes.....
(1) EQUIPMENT POLICE STUFF : 5-5; I'd favor making knee pads optional and not to worry about eye shadow.
(2) HOLDER'S KNEE ONLY NEEDS TO BE NEAR GROUND : 2-9 ; no.
(3) 2 MAJOR PFs = PLAYER :thumbup : 0-10 ; no,the bookkeeping on this would add a burdensome duty to z^.
(4)DROP KICK ONLY IF BALL IS KICKED AS IT HITS THE GROUND : 2-6 ; no.
(5) RECIEVER REMAINS DEFENSLESS FOR 2 STEPS : 2-9 ; no, why give a reciever a head start after he's landed?
(6) FUMBLE OOB W/LESS THAN 2 MIN.=CLOCK ON RFP :4-5; no, I not in favor of changes that require us to worry about more.
(7) RUN CLOCK THRU a MAKING THRU 1ST DOWN : 6-6; no, this would require 40" play clock from end of play in hopes the chain crew could keep up with excited kids.
(8)FORWARD FUMBLE >OOB>SPOT OF FUMBLE & CLOCK STARTS WHEN BALL RETURNS TO INBOUNDS : 5-6; no, see #6.
(9) FOUL ON K ONLY IF FREE KICK IS OVER/BEYOND FIELD 0F PLAY WHEN TOUCHED BY OOB R : 6-6; yes, this was the intent when current rule was passed in 2001 and fair.
(10) LATE IN HALF/GAME, FGA ATTEMPT PRIOR TO 4TH DOWN =OK WITH NUMBERING EXCEPTION : 8-3; YES.
(11) IFP IF QB WENT BEYOND LOS THEN bEHIND TO PASS : 9-3; yes.
(12) MAKE IG A SPOT FOUL W/O ANY YARDAGE : 5-6; no, IG rule has stretched enough.
(13) REDUCE DPI TO 10 YARDS +ADD APD : 2-9; NO,SEE #14.
(14) ADD AFD TO DPI : 8-2; yes, games can be played by B inside of 30.
(15) DBPF > USC > 2 USCs > :thumbup : 4-6 ; no, often poor timing, not anger cause late hits.
(16) FOULS BY B INSIDE OF B'S 30, CONSIDER IF FULL 15 CREATES 1/10 : 4-7; no, need CPA for white hat.
(17) PF BY B = AFD : 3-8, no, offsets balance.
(18-25) PATCH UP RULE 10 : all :sTiR:
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(18-25) PATCH UP RULE 10 : all :sTiR:
Just please, for the love of God, if you do anything with Rule 10, just get rid of that damn table and bring back all but one with exceptions.
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Just please, for the love of God, if you do anything with Rule 10, just get rid of that damn table and bring back all but one with exceptions.
I'm biased when I attend these meetings, as my first consideration is :" Will it be easy for the officials ??". Most will agree that last year's re-write was very complex to learn for newies. I tried to stress to all our officials that they needed to grab three new concepts :
(1) Fouls by A behind LOS = previous spot.
(2) Fouls by B when run ends behind LOS = previous spot.
(3) EXCEPTIONS ; ball fouls...IFP, IG, IB, IK =spot of foul; A foul in own EZ = safety.
I may try to mention that at our 'campfire meeting" ( informal gathering night before floor vote),but have my two proposals to lobby for first.
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I find the table helpful as it puts all the common things in one place. If the column heading of "Basic Spot" was changed to "Enforcement Spot" it would be even better. When I read basic spot and wonder what exactly does it mean I go to the Rule 2 definition --- and that doesn't help at all. Just eliminate the term "basic spot" and say what spot to enforce the foul from.
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(3) EXCEPTIONS ; ball fouls...IFP, IG, IB, IK =spot of foul
Exception to the exceptions — for some unknown reason, Illegal Touching wasn’t included. hEaDbAnG
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Exception to the exceptions — for some unknown reason, Illegal Touching wasn’t included. hEaDbAnG
Agree. Would like to see that included in the exceptions as another "ball" foul.
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INHO, illegal touching wasn't included as it also includes a ineligible reciever touching a forward pass downfield.
IMHO, I thought the Patriots would win the Super Bowl pi1eOn.
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IMHO, I thought the Patriots would win the Super Bowl pi1eOn.
Uh, I think they got 6 of those, all with the same anonymous QB. aWaRd
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INHO, illegal touching wasn't included as it also includes a ineligible reciever touching a forward pass downfield.
But we’re talking about Team A fouls behind the previous spot.
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But we’re talking about Team A fouls behind the previous spot.
I'll ask, hopefully someone will answer.
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Ralph, are these the only propose rules changes there going to considered for 2024. What about unsportmanlike conduct foul by defense automatic 1st down. Also on the 2023 NFHS Rules questionnaire. Encroachment being a live ball foul.
I missed posting the proposal on encroachment. It would make encroachment ON A FREE KICK alive ball foul. This usually occurs on an attempted onside kick and contact is already happening when blown dead. This would be treated as a tack-on if on K nd recovered by R.
I'd support this. What say you ??? :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:
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Ralph, I would support this rule change making encroachment on free-kick a live ball foul.
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Ralph, what pct of officials and coaches participating voted for the propose 2024 rule changes.
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I missed posting the proposal on encroachment. It would make encroachment ON A FREE KICK alive ball foul. This usually occurs on an attempted onside kick and contact is already happening when blown dead. This would be treated as a tack-on if on K nd recovered by R.
I'd support this. What say you ??? :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:
I think this is more efficient and improves safety. There's a lot of contact on an onside kick and by the time we see the encroachment, blow the whistle, and teams process, the contact is occuring. So right now we have two rounds of contact where we might be able to just do one if R recovers.
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Ralph, what pct of officials and coaches participating voted for the propose 2024 rule changes.
55% of coaches and 57% of officials voted for live - ball encrochment. IMHO, the stated question was vague as only free-kick encroachment is proposed as live-ball. While scrimmage down encroachment has came up a few times,it has never gained much support. When the rule was changed in 1975 making it a dead ball foul, my job as a :o wide-eyed :o wingman became much easier. Judging if B jumping in and out of the NZ caused A to flinch was always a challange ::). I wouldn't support going back to that.
:sTiR:
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Ralph, the propose rule change making encroachment on a live-ball foul. It's only for onside kicks or for all free -kicks. What your your opinion on this passing this year. Also what pct of officials and coaches on prospose rule change on DPI Automatic 1st down. All personal fouls by Automatic 1st.
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I missed posting the proposal on encroachment. It would make encroachment ON A FREE KICK alive ball foul. This usually occurs on an attempted onside kick and contact is already happening when blown dead. This would be treated as a tack-on if on K nd recovered by R.
I'd support this. What say you ??? :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:
Create a definition for this of "Offside" (live ball foul) as to differentiate between "Encroachment" (dead ball foul). We don't want 2 different types of encroachment.
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I'd support that too.
Can we also get a delay of game foul for any coach behind the official who yells "He's offsides!" when all players are still two yards behind the line and the ball has already been kicked? That seems to be a new tactic in my area to "get the idea in my head" or something...
Create a definition for this of "Offside" (live ball foul) as to differentiate between "Encroachment" (dead ball foul). We don't want 2 different types of encroachment.
Ooh! Can we add the phrase "Unabated to the quarterback" to the rule book?
I'd agree to the split definition -- being *in* the neutral zone at the snap (or free kick) is offsides and is a live ball foul ("at the snap" also allows for a player to get back), being *beyond* the neutral zone prior to the snap (or free kick) is encroachment and a dead ball foul (part 2 -- in the zone and making contact with an opponent is dead ball encroachment as well).
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ncwingman, The encroachment making it a live ball is only on free-kicks. I think that propose rule will change. I would like to change the encroachment from dead ball to live ball offside. On scrimmage downs. I disgree with ralph on judging if B jumping in and out of NZ causing A to flich . If B jumps in the NZ and get back without contacting the offense linesman that nothing. If A flinches that a false start. It's kind of funny the there changed free-kicks from live-ball offside to dead-ball encroachment in 1977. 47 years it looks light the free-kicks might go back to live-ball offside in 2024. I never though that the might change to free-kicks to live-ball offside from dead-ball encroachment. But then I didn't think the fouls by A or B behind the LOS would be a previous spot foul. The NFHS was the last to code to change the ABO TO previous spot. NCAA changed to previous spot in 2001. The NFL changed to previous spot in 1975. I agree we have to have 2 difference types. Encroachment dead-ball on scrimmage downs. Offside on free-kicks. In 1976 they changed offside live-ball on scrimmage downs. To encroachment dead-ball on scrimmage downs. So that change has been 48 years. Maybe next year they might change back the encroachment dead-ball on scrimmage downs. To live-ball offside on scrimmage downs.
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Ralph, please tell me it is “Offside,” and not “Offsides.” Singular. Not plural.
Please. PLEASE.
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ncwingman, The encroachment making it a live ball is only on free-kicks. I think that propose rule will change. I would like to change the encroachment from dead ball to live ball offside. On scrimmage downs. I disgree with ralph on judging if B jumping in and out of NZ causing A to flich . If B jumps in the NZ and get back without contacting the offense linesman that nothing. If A flinches that a false start. It's kind of funny the there changed free-kicks from live-ball offside to dead-ball encroachment in 1977. 47 years it looks light the free-kicks might go back to live-ball offside in 2024. I never though that the might change to free-kicks to live-ball offside from dead-ball encroachment. But then I didn't think the fouls by A or B behind the LOS would be a previous spot foul. The NFHS was the last to code to change the ABO TO previous spot. NCAA changed to previous spot in 2001. The NFL changed to previous spot in 1975. I agree we have to have 2 difference types. Encroachment dead-ball on scrimmage downs. Offside on free-kicks. In 1976 they changed offside live-ball on scrimmage downs. To encroachment dead-ball on scrimmage downs. So that change has been 48 years. Maybe next year they might change back the encroachment dead-ball on scrimmage downs. To live-ball offside on scrimmage downs.
Allowing B to enter the neutral zone and get back without penalty, but penalizing A for moving if he does is unfair to A. The best option is to leave it like it is.
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CalhounLJ If B enter the neutral zone and get back without penalty, but penalizing for for moving if he does is unfair to A. How is that unfair B didn't cause to to move A did by himself. I can see if B entered the neutral zone and making A committed a false start then I would agree with your statement. I like college and pro rule.
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Allowing B to enter the neutral zone and get back without penalty, but penalizing A for moving if he does is unfair to A. The best option is to leave it like it is.
:thumbup
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bama-stripes, it doesn't matter the high school code will never go back to live-ball offside on scrimmage downs. At least they might change free-kicks to live-ball-ball offside. Will have to wait and see if that one of those propose rules changes for the 2024 football season.
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bama-stripes, it doesn't matter the high school code will never go back to live-ball offside on scrimmage downs. At least they might change free-kicks to live-ball-ball offside. Will have to wait and see if that one of those propose rules changes for the 2024 football season.
I would think that B, moving before the actual snap/or movement by A, gives B and advantage over his A target, who is required to wait for the snap before responding.
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Sorry for not respond to you guys since last Saturday. I left for the Bangor airport at Sunday morn at 4 AM. Ole' Dell, my trusty computer, is a desktop and doesn't make. road trips. Just got home late last night after playing musical airports - Indy>Phila > Columbus,Ohio > D.C. > Bangor. You haven't lived until you've slept on the floor in Columbus airport :puke:. Problem: Snowing in Bangor ! :o.
I don't feel I can comment on your questions until NFHS Press Relase in a couple of weeks. Sorry, guys.
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You haven't lived until you've slept on the floor in Columbus airport.
You call that living? You are confused, my friend. That snow has messed with your mind. You may need to trade snow for west Texas dust storms! Combine the dust with rain, and you literally have mud storms! Way more fun. Oh. Wait. It was 5 degrees here Tuesday morning. That ain't fun, even if we were blessed enough to not have moisture with it.
To get you back on track, I will ask again: In NFHS, is it "Offsides" (plural)? Or "Offside" (singular)? Please tell me it is the singular "Offside." PLEASE!
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You call that living? You are confused, my friend. That snow has messed with your mind. You may need to trade snow for west Texas dust storms! Combine the dust with rain, and you literally have mud storms! Way more fun. Oh. Wait. It was 5 degrees here Tuesday morning. That ain't fun, even if we were blessed enough to not have moisture with it.
To get you back on track, I will ask again: In NFHS, is it "Offsides" (plural)? Or "Offside" (singular)? Please tell me it is the singular "Offside." PLEASE!
Actually, it's neither. NFHS uses the term "encroachment". The term "offside(s)" does not appear in any NFHS football rules related documents that I am aware of. In the context of football rules it is an NCAA/NFL exclusive term.
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Actually, it's neither. NFHS uses the term "encroachment". The term "offside(s)" does not appear in any NFHS football rules related documents that I am aware of. In the context of football rules it is an NCAA/NFL exclusive term.
Well, first, glad you are ‘back in the saddle,’ and safe at home. Second, good to know about NFHS terminology. But, if you ever adopt a rule change that uses the term “Offside,” please make sure everyone knows that it is the singular (Offside), and not the plural. Been waging that war on the NCAA side of the fence for a very long time. Redding tried to fix it. Shaw is trying to fix it. I don’t know where anybody gets the idea that the plural is correct. It isn’t. Singular. SINGULAR! Offside. How easy is that?
Stay warm!
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While I can't tell you what's hot and what's not, I can tell you that Steve Shaw, a NCAA rules guru, spoke. An early question was : "Why doesn't the NCAA have a rule regarding knee pads and the lack thereoff ??? ???" His answer was :"We do, the coaches just won't enforce it :o :o !" There seemed to be something misplaced with such a pecking order :o ::) hEaDbAnG.
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While I can't tell you what's hot and what's not, I can tell you that Steve Shaw, a NCAA rules guru, spoke. An early question was : "Why doesn't the NCAA have a rule regarding knee pads and the lack thereoff ??? ???" His answer was :"We do, the coaches just won't enforce it :o :o !" There seemed to be something misplaced with such a pecking order :o ::) hEaDbAnG.
Thankfully, the knee pad /pants / hip pads / tailbone protector issues didn’t become issues until after my retirement from FBS. But, we still had mouthpieces and socks to deal with during my days. Having ‘been there, done that’ for those issues, I can testify that officials want to do the right thing, but there is no support for them regarding uniform and equipment rules. Coaches don’t care. They will allow anything, if they think they can get even the tiniest competitive advantage, or at least they match what the other team is getting away with, and don’t get put at a disadvantage.
The only way to get change on these rules is for an official to decide his career is over, anyway, so why not go out with a bang, and bring attention to these issues, by, on the first play of a game a national TV, sending out every player who’s knees aren’t covered and padded, who don’t have a mouthpiece, hip pads, or tailbone protectors, and not allow them to re-enter until the violation is corrected. Oh. What? You don’t have 11 players that are compliant? Well, then, I guess that’s a forfeit. What’s that you say? The other team doesn’t have 11 compliant players either? Then I guess that’s a double forfeit. Bye.
No one wants to be that guy. But, no one will stand up and support us when we try to make them get into compliance. They just tell us we’re being too technical.
So, there. That’s why you see what you see in NCAA football.
Here is a scenario that might elicit change: BC A33 is being tackled by an opponent pulling on his pony tail, which causes A33’s bare kneecap to strike B77 directly on the tip of B77’s unpadded coccyx, breaking B77’s coccyx and dislocating A33’s kneecap. As he falls to the ground, A33’s helmeted head is contacted forcibly by the unpadded hip bone of B99, breaking B99’s hip bone. A33, not wearing a mouthpiece, bites his tongue severely, and sustains a severe concussion by the contact with B99’s hip. As there are no ‘contact’ or UNS/UNR fouls during the down, the only action following the down is the removal of A33, B77, and B99 from the game for their injuries. None are able to return to the game. A33, B77, and B99 - all pre-season All-Americans and top ten NFL draft prospects, are medically prevented from playing for at least the next 21 days, to recover from their injuries, causing them to miss their conference championship games, and dramatically reducing their ‘stock’ in the draft.
That might get folks to re-thinking these things. Nah.
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CalhounLJ If B enter the neutral zone and get back without penalty, but penalizing for for moving if he does is unfair to A. How is that unfair B didn't cause to to move A did by himself. I can see if B entered the neutral zone and making A committed a false start then I would agree with your statement. I like college and pro rule.
I'm not sure I understand your question. It seems like you have contradicted yourself with the next to last sentence. "I can see if B entered the neutral zone and making A committed a false start." That's what I'm talking about...
It's unfair to A Because the act of B charging across the neutral zone will surely cause A to want to block him, causing A to false start. What you will see if this were to pass would be B players jumping in and out in an effort to try and get A to move. It would create an unfair advantage for B.
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RALPH, way to early what 2025 propose rules changes would you like see changed next year!
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CalhounLJ, If B enters the neutral & doesn't get back causing A to committed a false start that encroachment. But in 13 years of working line judge/headlinesman I never saw a committed a false start if B enters the neutral zone & get back. It's doesn't matter the nfhs rules committee will never change the rule back. from encroachment dead-ball. To offside live-ball. Maybe the free-kicks might change this from enchroachment dead-ball. To offside live-ball. Will just have to wait to see the 2024 football changes sometime in February.
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The only way to get change on these rules is for an official to decide his career is over, anyway, so why not go out with a bang, and bring attention to these issues, by, on the first play of a game a national TV, sending out every player who’s knees aren’t covered and padded, who don’t have a mouthpiece, hip pads, or tailbone protectors, and not allow them to re-enter until the violation is corrected. Oh. What? You don’t have 11 players that are compliant? Well, then, I guess that’s a forfeit. What’s that you say? The other team doesn’t have 11 compliant players either? Then I guess that’s a double forfeit. Bye.
If I remember correctly, knee pads were a POE in NCAA a few years ago (a quick google search says it was in 2018) -- and I remember watching the first game of the season of the local college where the crew took it to heart and removed multiple players on both teams in the first couple plays. Suddenly, it all stopped -- after about play 5, never again. I think somebody told them to knock it off, and the immediately rescinded the POE and it was never mentioned again. I do NOT think they players learned their lesson and started covering their knees, mostly because I was standing on the sideline and could easily see they were not.
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If I remember correctly, knee pads were a POE in NCAA a few years ago (a quick google search says it was in 2018) -- and I remember watching the first game of the season of the local college where the crew took it to heart and removed multiple players on both teams in the first couple plays. Suddenly, it all stopped -- after about play 5, never again. I think somebody told them to knock it off, and the immediately rescinded the POE and it was never mentioned again. I do NOT think they players learned their lesson and started covering their knees, mostly because I was standing on the sideline and could easily see they were not.
And that’s the way that cookie crumbled.🤷🏻♂️
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While I can't tell you what's hot and what's not, I can tell you that Steve Shaw, a NCAA rules guru, spoke. An early question was : "Why doesn't the NCAA have a rule regarding knee pads and the lack thereoff ??? ???" His answer was :"We do, the coaches just won't enforce it :o :o !" There seemed to be something misplaced with such a pecking order :o ::) hEaDbAnG.
I’m sure Steve meant “The coaches don’t want it enforced.”
BTW: Did you get an answer as to why Illegal Touching behind the LOS was exempted from spot-of-foul enforcement?
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I’m sure Steve meant “The coaches don’t want it enforced.”
BTW: Did you get an answer as to why Illegal Touching behind the LOS was exempted from spot-of-foul enforcement?
As we Mainers would say : " 'Spect that says the coaches rule the roost :puke: ,AYUH". Maybe televised NCAA football games should have a leading disclaimer reading "Don't Try This at Home."
From someone I figured would know : "Most illegal touching fouls occur by ineligible recievers illegally touching a forward pass downfield."
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No to pretty much everything. The goal should be to eliminate gray area. Adding exceptions and special scenarios to 45 different rules makes it extremely difficult for new officials. Hell, for lots of veteran officials as well. The game in HS and below is drastically different than NCAA, but so are the officials. Strive for simplification, uniformity, and standardization above all else.
YES - (11) IFP if QB went beyond LOS, then behind to pass. This just makes sense, and the rule as is has never made sense to anyone watching football.
(18 - 25) Proposals aimed at correcting/clarify/re-writing Rule 10. Cautiously yes, depending on what the "clarification" is.
As always, I enjoy in reading and value your opinions. I often use some of them in the upcoming debates. Please offer yours.
(1) Equipment Cops: more coloring rules on home jerseys, Pants covering thigh pads only needed. Sweat bands,any eye shadow and play cards can be worn anywhere. Equipment missing = TO charged to player's team.
(2) Holder's knee only nears to be NEAR ground.
(3) Major PF's are : Targeting, RTP/S/H,K, horse collar & DBPF by same player; on 2nd = :thumbup.
(4) Drop kick only if as ball touches ground.
(5) Reciever remains 'defensless' for first two steps.
(6) Fumble OOB W/less than 2 min.= start clock on RFP.
(7) Run clock during 1st down by A.
(8) Forward fumble > OOB > spot of fumble . Clock starts whwn ball back inbounds.
(9) Foul on K only if free kick is beyond field of play when touched by OOB R.
(10) Late in half/game, FGA prior to 4th down= OK with # exception.
(11) IFP if QB went beyond LOS, then behind to pass.
(12) Make IG a spot foul w/o any yardage.
(13) Reduce DPI to 10 /yds AND add AFD.
(14) Add AFD if DPI
(15) DBPF > USC , 2 USC + :thumbup
(16) Fouls by B > B's 30, consider if full 15 would create 1st down.
(17) PF if by B = AFD.
(18 - 25) Proposals aimed at correcting/ clairfy/re-writing Rule 10.
Thank you for taking time tp respond. Happy Holidays to you and yours aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd
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No to pretty much everything. The goal should be to eliminate gray area. Adding exceptions and special scenarios to 45 different rules makes it extremely difficult for new officials. Hell, for lots of veteran officials as well. The game in HS and below is drastically different than NCAA, but so are the officials. Strive for simplification, uniformity, and standardization above all else.
YES - (11) IFP if QB went beyond LOS, then behind to pass. This just makes sense, and the rule as is has never made sense to anyone watching football.
(18 - 25) Proposals aimed at correcting/clarify/re-writing Rule 10. Cautiously yes, depending on what the "clarification" is.
You got your wish, Jason, almost. The only rule passed was that home team jerseys all needed to be of the same color. Scrambling QB >beyond LOS > behind LOS > forward pass didn't make it out of sub-committee for a final vote. Clarification is only a 'nice' way of saying CORRECTION. We'll all know what was done when the books arrive.