foul reporting to referee

[Tom.OH]

Our goal is to get the call right and on occasion we have dueling flags for "a tie" on quick trips into the NZ. With a quick conference, the white hat can correct the situation by ruling false start on A. B can be moving forward prior to the snap while A can't. Another reason why wings shouldn't use the penalty signal.

That is my feeling also, FS trumps encroachment

[VALJ]

Depends on whether the B player breaks the NZ before A moves.

[Rulesman]

Depends on whether the B player breaks the NZ before A moves.

Beat me to it.

[bkdow]

I'd rather run in anyway.  It gets boring on the wing!  I need someone to talk to once in a while and the Umpire and R seem to be having so much more conversation!!  Maybe that's why I throw so many flags 

[FBUmp]

You think I (and every other coach worth his salt) doesn't know that trick?  And when I see one wing throw it on the defense and one throw it on the offense, your crew is about to have a bad day. 

AB, don't make the mistake of assuming too much. Just because some officials do this, it does not mean everybody does it. Just because the new LJ throws his flag and it lands on your opponent's side of the field, it doesn't mean the foul is on them. He may just be happy he was able to see the foul and kill the play.

Just because the U grabs his whistle, it doesn't mean a TD has been scored. It only means he sees the ball across the goal line. That does not mean the wing official did not have a knee down.

We use signals to communicate with each other. Personally, I don't care of the coach thinks he knows what a signal is. And if he wants to be an BUTT ("...your crew is about to have a bad day") I can give as good as I get.

[prab]

AB, don't make the mistake of assuming too much. Just because some officials do this, it does not mean everybody does it. Just because the new LJ throws his flag and it lands on your opponent's side of the field, it doesn't mean the foul is on them. He may just be happy he was able to see the foul and kill the play.

Just because the U grabs his whistle, it doesn't mean a TD has been scored. It only means he sees the ball across the goal line. That does not mean the wing official did not have a knee down.

We use signals to communicate with each other. Personally, I don't care of the coach thinks he knows what a signal is. And if he wants to be an BUTT ("...your crew is about to have a bad day") I can give as good as I get.

What he said!

[Atlanta Blue]

AB, don't make the mistake of assuming too much. Just because some officials do this, it does not mean everybody does it. Just because the new LJ throws his flag and it lands on your opponent's side of the field, it doesn't mean the foul is on them. He may just be happy he was able to see the foul and kill the play.

Usually, you can tell the difference between a wing that is simply dropping the flag (or worse off, throwing it high in the air), and one that is deliberately trying to determine the side on which he is dropping it.  If he can do it so subtly that I can't tell it was intentional, good for him!

Just because the U grabs his whistle, it doesn't mean a TD has been scored. It only means he sees the ball across the goal line. That does not mean the wing official did not have a knee down.

I fully realize that.  But when the ump grabs his whistle and the wing somes in digging in the pile, someone has screwed up.  Now, if the wing comes in marking a spot and sells the knee down, great, the ump's grab means nothing.  But a wing that comes in digging after getting the signal either isn't paying attention, or doesn't know what hes doing.

We use signals to communicate with each other. Personally, I don't care of the coach thinks he knows what a signal is. And if he wants to be an BUTT ("...your crew is about to have a bad day") I can give as good as I get.

Of course, you will win the battle and have the last word tonight.  But I'll win the war.  We needn't go into details here, but I've only taken my complaints to the highest levels twice, and in both cases, I was the one shown to be correct. 

There's a difference between a coach that whines all the time, and one that is judicious in his complaints, and can back them up.  The latter gets listened to.

[Rulesman]

Of course, you will win the battle and have the last word tonight.  But I'll win the war.  We needn't go into details here, but I've only taken my complaints to the highest levels twice, and in both cases, I was the one shown to be correct. 

There's a difference between a coach that whines all the time, and one that is judicious in his complaints, and can back them up.  The latter gets listened to.

And did it change the outcome?

[Atlanta Blue]

And did it change the outcome?

I wasn't going to go there, but you asked.  In both cases, the crew was reprimanded, and their playoff games were taken away from them.

[Legacy Zebra]

If I may, what was so egregious that it warranted that kind of reaction? Surely it was bigger than the types of things discussed in this thread.

[Atlanta Blue]

If I may, what was so egregious that it warranted that kind of reaction? Surely it was bigger than the types of things discussed in this thread.

Of course it was.  As I said, I don't whine just to whine.  If I escalate an issue to the state level, then it was something significant, that wasn't handled right.  Something like this, I might mention it to the association president to let him know, and they always get back to me after talking with the crew. 

Some coaches whine incessantly, even to the state, and therefore, when they really do have a legitimate complaint, they don't get heard (the boy who cried wolf).  But if you rarely complain, back up your complaints with video and an include an unemotional explanation with facts instead of opinions, you get heard.

Reputation is everything.  Greatest football compliment I was ever given came from the state's head of officials when I was being introduced at a clinic, "If Coach here is in your ear and telling you something's wrong, you better call timeout and get to your referee, because odds on, you've got a problem."

[Rulesman]

I wasn't going to go there, but you asked.  In both cases, the crew was reprimanded, and their playoff games were taken away from them.

But did it change the outcome?

[Atlanta Blue]

But did it change the outcome?

Of our games, no, the damage was done.

Of their future, absolutely.  So ultimately, they did have a bad day.

[Rulesman]

Of course, you will win the battle and have the last word tonight.  But I'll win the war.

But did it change the outcome?

Of our games, no, the damage was done.

Of their future, absolutely.

My point being nothing was accomplished other than the satisfaction of getting your "revenge." And we wonder why officials mistrust coaches.

[AlUpstateNY]

If officials aren't using the "drop the flag on the side of the team that fouled", then this is the next thing that we would see (or touch the side of the face of the team that fouled, or use the arm of the side of the fouling team across your chest or to the belt buckle, seen those too).

And if you signal white and your partner signals red, you've just told the coaches that the two of you couldn't even agree on who fouled.  Sure, you can explain how you reached your decision, but why even put yourself in that spot, it's not a good conversation to have to have.  If there's two flags down, don't signal anything and just go report.  That way, the coaches never know you weren't on the same page.

I thought eavesdropping on conversations between other people was a sign of bad manners.  One would think conversations between field officials, either by voice or by signal, were intended to be limited to field officials, since we ALWAYS have the option to include coaches, or ask for their advice, when we think it may be helpful, or beneficial to the game.

[wvoref]

My point being nothing was accomplished other than the satisfaction of getting your "revenge." And we wonder why officials mistrust coaches.

Would have to hope that for this to progress to this level the incident was much more egregious (as stated in a previous post) than the run of the mill disagreement.  Would hope this went through the chain of command, crew chief, assigner, local board etc. before reaching the state level.  And even then could only imagine taking it to state level if the crew was found wrong at the lower levels and still refused to acknowledge it and learn from it.  If that were the case I don't feel "revenge" was what was accomplished.  If it was a mistake that the crew acknowledged (admittedly probably well after game had ended) and learned from then this would seem more like a revenge motive.  Only other valid reason to approach state would be to use this play situation as a learning experience for all officials but without an attempt at retribution.

[Atlanta Blue]

My point being nothing was accomplished other than the satisfaction of getting your "revenge." And we wonder why officials mistrust coaches.

Mistrust?  So we are just supposed to accept whatever the official says, no matter how wrong they may be?

It's bad enough they took away the formal protest of a rules misinterpretation (which used to exist in Georgia until about 8 years ago).  Official is dead wrong on a rule interp.  I'm just supposed to say, "Thank you, sir" and move on?  Sorry, not going to happen.  That official doesn't deserve to work playoffs, just figure it's my responsibility to make sure the state knows it. 

[Rulesman]

So we are just supposed to accept whatever the official says, no matter how wrong they may be?

No more than officials are supposed to accept whatever a coach says, no matter how wrong they may be. And they can be wrong.

Last year, an entire coaching staff - all 7 of them - insisted a crew gave the opponent 5 downs in a series. After reviewing the film, including down, distance and a copy of the play-by-play, we found the "extra" down came because - cue the band - they thought OPI still carries a LOD. Really?

I guess the crew could have reported the coaching staff to the state and kept them from coaching in the playoffs.

Your crew won your battle; you won your war (your words), and the crew suffered consequences. Too bad those battles and wars are only fought on one front.

[AlUpstateNY]

Sometimes it makes sense and pause to reflect that football is a game, played by scholar athletes, that is an additional part of their basic learning experience.  It's NOT a contest between supervisory adults as to who happens to be smarter, or who shouts louder. 

When there is a disagreement related to any matter, there is a defined protocol designed to resolve the disagreement (You might review NFHS 3-5-2c) from which after THE decision is reached, the game moves on. 

Any individual coach should be focused on whether he, has earned the right to participate in post season play, rather than worry about what is necessary for a game official to advance.  I stronglt suggest the extreme rarity of ANY official working a perfect game is similar to the extreme rarity of any coach, achieving coaching perfection.  People who live in glass houses, on either side of a sideline, should think twice before throwing any rocks.

[Atlanta Blue]

No more than officials are supposed to accept whatever a coach says, no matter how wrong they may be. And they can be wrong.

Oh, they can be quite wrong about the rules, quite often.  I find it embarrassing to hear how wrong coaches can be.  Unfortunately for officials, yes, you pretty much have to listen to what they say, within reason.  You don't have to agree with it, you don't have to rule in their favor, but if they do it it properly, you have to listen.  Comes with the job.

Last year, an entire coaching staff - all 7 of them - insisted a crew gave the opponent 5 downs in a series. After reviewing the film, including down, distance and a copy of the play-by-play, we found the "extra" down came because - cue the band - they thought OPI still carries a LOD. Really?

Wrong, but not outrageous.  They just weren't up to date.  But you couldn't straighten that one out?

And believe me, they were closer to "up to date" than the H who this past season told me Illegal Procedure certainly was a penalty in HS football, and he pulled out his signal card to prove it to me.  Sure enough, his card said signal 19 was Illegal Procedure.  I think it also said Lyndon Johnson was President, but he didn't let that get in the way of his ignorance.

I guess the crew could have reported the coaching staff to the state and kept them from coaching in the playoffs.

If you think that will get you anything other than laughed out of the office, then have at it.

Look, coaches make tons of mistakes, I'm not defending them.  And if they were to do something egregious (shoving an official, or an opposing player, or instructing his players to intentionally injure an opponent, etc,), then they absolutely should be reported to the state and banned from coaching in the playoffs.  But if an officiating crew completely ignores or misinterprets a rule, and refuses to look it up or allow it to be looked up, then they too should be reported and removed, as they obviously aren't competent to do the job at that level.

Your crew won your battle; you won your war (your words), and the crew suffered consequences. Too bad those battles and wars are only fought on one front.

But they aren't.  There are a number of coaches around our state that served suspensions last year because the officiating crew filed a report.  Far more than the other way around.  And I'm betting most all of them deserved it.

[NorCalMike]

If the officials make an egregious mistake, coaches should report it to the appropriate people and if that causes the officials to miss out on playoffs, I have no problem. AB should report the mistake especially if the official will not acknowledge the mistake. It is not about revenge. It is about having the best officials available work playoff games. No official works perfect games. Errors are going to occur but when the error is huge and affects the game significantly there should be consequences to the officials.

[Rulesman]

It is not about revenge.

Right! Then explain the quote: "Of course, you will win the battle and have the last word tonight.  But I'll win the war."

[Atlanta Blue]

Right! Then explain the quote: "Of course, you will win the battle and have the last word tonight.  But I'll win the war."

Here is the evolution of that comment, which is way off where we started. I said if officials have disagreeing signals that a coach can see, the crew is setting themselves for a bad night, needlessly. FBUmp said go ahead, he can give as good as he gets. That is when I pointed out, "You will win the battle, but I will win the war."  If an official decides he's going to "give it to a coach" when they have made an egregious error, then yes, I will escalate the issue to the state. As I said. In 14 years, I have done it twice, and both times, I was shown to be correct and the officials incorrect.

It's not just an official making a mistake, heck, that happens every game. But the official that "gives as good as he gets" when wrong needs to miss the playoffs. As far as I'm concerned, he should lose his Varsity schedule for the year. That's a FAR different situation than an official that remains respectful, admits there is a chance of being wrong, and is willing to look into it. That official gets respect. The former gets reported.

[ECILLJ]

  he should lose his Varsity schedule for the year. 

How did we go from proper mechanics for an encroachment/false start to losing a varsity schedule for a year?

I am thankful I work the cornfields of the Midwest and not the red clay of Georgia.

[Ralph Damren]

A word about our "secret signals".... ( I've never really considered them secret as they are published in the Officials Manual - pg 23 & Simplified & Illustrated -pg 206), they are used as aids to both officials and players, alike. When a wideout asks : "Am I OK??"; we respond : "If my fist is pointing towards your backfield, you are off the line; if it's at my side then you're on." The touching signal ,if kick is touched downfield by R; the tapping of the cap if the TE is covered, etc,etc are other examples of signals to aid the game and aren't intended to be secret. Three underused words that somehow defuse combative situations are "please" and "thank you". IMHO, our job as zebras isn't to argue with coaches, but to listen and respond. We are neutral and the coach is not. Once you've heard enough let him know it's time to move on. Enough from my soapbox.... ... time to watch a soccer game