Author Topic: Defensive Holding  (Read 12035 times)

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GoGoGo

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Defensive Holding
« on: April 26, 2011, 12:34:43 PM »
Would anyone call Defensive holding and if so where would the penalty be marked off from? Using Fed rules.

1-10-A20  A12 drops back and passes to A88 who catches the ball at the A30 and runs where he is tackled inbounds at mid-field. B24 committed defensive holding at the A35 during the run after the ball was caught.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 07:24:47 AM by GoGoGo »

stevestod

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2011, 01:02:50 PM »


I would call it if it was a safety issue or really obvious; you have to use some common sense.  wouldn't you tack it on the end on the run.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2011, 01:50:45 PM »
On the play example as posted, no.  I'm not real sure what advantage was gained

Would I ever call it, yes and I have.  I've had LB's grab TE's as they got by them.  Last season I had an undersized LB jump on a running back and ride him as he went downfield in a pattern.
Defensive holding doesn't happen very often and its usually pretty obvious when you flag it.

LarryW60

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2011, 03:02:05 PM »
I had one team where the MLB repeatedly hooked his arm around the waist of any TE the dragged across in front of him.  I thought I saw it once and didn't flag it (we're taught to not flag what we THINK we see) but kept an eye out and sure enough he did a literal take-down of the TE two plays later.  Flagged for IUH - Defense.

In the OP, as a wing official I'm following the play and so probably wouldn't even see the holding that far behind the play.

Wont_Do_To_Tell

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2011, 04:46:55 PM »
It's difficult to determine, at the LOS, whether or not the hold will affect the play or not.  If a WR is held a the LOS, do you not drop your flag or do you to wait and see how the play develops and then if you feel it affected the play, come back and throw it?

I think it'll look terrible if you waited for the WR, who was held at the LOS, to get 20 yrds downfield to then determine that he may have had a chance to make a play on the ball if he had not been held and then run back up and chunk a flag. 

If do enforce the penalty, on this play in question, it would be from the end of run.  1 and 10 at the A40.

FredFan7

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2011, 10:51:53 PM »
It's difficult to determine, at the LOS, whether or not the hold will affect the play or not.  If a WR is held a the LOS, do you not drop your flag or do you to wait and see how the play develops and then if you feel it affected the play, come back and throw it?

I think it'll look terrible if you waited for the WR, who was held at the LOS, to get 20 yrds downfield to then determine that he may have had a chance to make a play on the ball if he had not been held and then run back up and chunk a flag. 

If do enforce the penalty, on this play in question, it would be from the end of run.  1 and 10 at the A40.


On that play, throw it right away.  We can't divine whether the WR was the primary receiver, secondary receiver, or a decoy.  Neither could the defense and they were getting an unfair advantage.   ^flag ^flag ^flag

FredFan7

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2011, 10:52:54 PM »
In the OP, I wouldn't flag it. 

GoGoGo

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2011, 06:28:45 AM »
In the OP does "A" have a choice of taking the result of the play or 10 yards from the LOS OR does the 10 yards for holding get tacked on to the end of the run?

IMHO - I say the yardage gets tacked onto the end of the run because the hold happened after the catch and anything that happened after the catch is now part of a running play and the basic spot for fouls during a running play is the end of the related run.

Anything that happened from the snap until the pass is caught is part of a loose ball play and once the ball is caught the loose ball play now turns into a running play. = Is this statement true?   hEaDbAnG   hEaDbAnG
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 07:14:40 AM by GoGoGo »

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2011, 07:01:44 AM »
Quote
the basic spot for fouls during a loose ball play is the end of the run.

The premise of your last post is correct but you might want to read over what you wrote again.

GoGoGo

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2011, 07:07:00 AM »
LOL - Thanks - I will edit and correct that.

The mind was going faster than the fingers. I knew what I wanted to write but it didn't come out that way. I should have proof read it.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 07:09:37 AM by GoGoGo »

hoochycoochy

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2011, 10:31:38 AM »
I had one team where the MLB repeatedly hooked his arm around the waist of any TE the dragged across in front of him.  I thought I saw it once and didn't flag it (we're taught to not flag what we THINK we see) but kept an eye out and sure enough he did a literal take-down of the TE two plays later.  Flagged for IUH - Defense.

In the OP, as a wing official I'm following the play and so probably wouldn't even see the holding that far behind the play.
  Not to be picky but wouldn't this technically be holding? 

9-2-3c...Use his hands or arms to hook, lock, clamp, grasp, encircle or hold in an effort to restrain an opponent other than the runner. 

Wont_Do_To_Tell

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2011, 12:58:07 PM »
Anything that happened from the snap until the pass is caught is part of a loose ball play and once the ball is caught the loose ball play now turns into a running play. = Is this statement true?   hEaDbAnG   hEaDbAnG

Yes, i would agree.  I believe if the penalty is called AFTER the catch is made then, if on B, it's tacked on the end of the run. 

GoGoGo

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2011, 01:21:48 PM »
So how do I explain to my rules guy that he is wrong and I am correct?

My rules guy is telling me I am wrong and that "A" has a choice of the result of the play or the 10 yard penalty marked off from the original LOS. To make things worse he is telling members of the chapter that his ruling is correct and then they believe him. OUCH.........

It is hard as heck to teach an old dog new tricks.   ^flag    pHiNzuP   hEaDbAnG   hEaDbAnG   pi1eOn




Offline jg-me

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2011, 01:41:34 PM »
As with many issues of this type, send him to rule 2. Check the defnition of when a pass ends and then to the definition of play types for penalty enforcment. It should be clear to him after that.

LarryW60

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2011, 01:44:15 PM »
  Not to be picky but wouldn't this technically be holding? 

9-2-3c...Use his hands or arms to hook, lock, clamp, grasp, encircle or hold in an effort to restrain an opponent other than the runner. 
Could be, but Illegal Use of Hands - Defense is indicated using the same "Holding" signal and pointing towards the defense.  The penalty is the same 10 yards so the only ones who would care are the statisticians.

Mike L

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2011, 02:45:46 PM »
Quote
Would anyone call Defensive holding

Yes, if B somehow gained an advantage which usually only happens before the pass. After the catch it would have to be really ugly, rising to the level of a personal foul, for me to call it.


So how do I explain to my rules guy that he is wrong and I am correct?

Tell him to review rules 10-3 & 10-6.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 03:00:22 PM by Mike L »

hoochycoochy

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2011, 02:53:56 PM »
Could be, but Illegal Use of Hands - Defense is indicated using the same "Holding" signal and pointing towards the defense.  The penalty is the same 10 yards so the only ones who would care are the statisticians.
I would think that as an official you'd care since IUH and holding aren't the same thing. 

LarryW60

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2011, 03:15:29 PM »
I would think that as an official you'd care since IUH and holding aren't the same thing. 
??? So you're saying if you're holding someone, you're not using your hands illegally?  >:D

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2011, 09:08:06 AM »
Illegal use of the hands, Defensive Holding and illegal blocking are distinct penalties produced by extremely similar actions that apply to an infinite variety of different situations.  Each produces it's own unique conclusion, based on the specific action involved as well as the situation at the time of the foul. 

Which application is appropriate is determined by NF:10-3-4 (Basic Spots) and 10-3-3 (Types of Play). 

As for the "rule guy" who misunderstands that there is a menu choice, The only suggestion I would make is referr (or escort) him to (through) the  "Enforcement" explanation of the "All-but-one" philosophy at the end of Rule 10 which explains "spots"and when they apply.  Review of the Case Book plays in section "Basic Spots for Penalty Enforcement" (pages 89-93) may also help his understanding.

The facts that the yardage assessments and even signals are similar does NOT suggest that these penalty situations, or the terms used to describe them,  are interchangeable.

hoochycoochy

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2011, 09:39:16 AM »
??? So you're saying if you're holding someone, you're not using your hands illegally?  >:D
No, I'm saying that in 9-2, Arts. 1a, 2, 3a, b, d describes IUH and Arts. 1c; 3c describes holding.  What you described above sure seems to be holding per 3c. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 09:45:16 AM by hoochycoochy »

Offline VALJ

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2011, 10:35:19 PM »
If it has an effect on the play, darn right I will (and have) called it.  TE goes out in his pass pattern and hitches; the LB on his side grabs him by the shoulderpads and throws him to the ground.   ^flag

Offline Bob M.

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2011, 02:56:22 PM »
REPLY: In the original play, 99 times out of 100, you're probably better off keeping the flag in your pocket. But that one time when the hold is to take down a lead blocker for the runner, give that one careful consideration.

And let's just say that your "rules guy" needs to brush up a little on his enforcement rules.
Bob M.

theuref

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Re: Defensive Holding
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2011, 06:14:43 PM »
DID IT AFFECT THE PLAY , OR WAS IT ON THE OTHER SIDE, ADD PENALTY TO END OF THE RUN