Football Free kick formation

[prab]

We have a team in our area which goes immediately from the try to its KO positions (no sideline huddle, pep talk etc.) and waits for the other team to get into its own KO formation. This team's coach is aware that the rules call for a one minute long official time out after a try.  At the one minute mark he is asking why we aren't sounding the RFP.  If this team is now going to be R, what do we tell this coach when we are allowing K extra time to get into legal formation before sounding the RFP? 

[HLinNC]

If this team is now going to be R, what do we tell this coach when we are allowing K extra time to get into legal formation before sounding the RFP?

"Because that is what <insert your state office here> told us to do Coach.  Now please get back in the box.  Thank you."

[prab]

"Because that is what <insert your state office here> told us to do Coach.  Now please get back in the box.  Thank you."

If your state has provided guidance in this area (specifically, told you to ignore the one minute limitation on official time outs after a try) then at least you have something to say to the coach.  Our state has not provided any guidance/instructions for such a situation.

[HLinNC]

Might be a good idea to ask them to provide some clarity.  Or conversely, drop some DOG's on meandering K.
Our director did tell us to be lenient and helpful during the first few weeks as the teams adjust.

[bama_stripes]

We give each team a 15-second warning, just like we do after any other TO, and rarely have a problem.  I would certainly support a DOG penalty if one team keeps dawdling after being warned.

Also, we deem the one-minute interval to have started as soon as the whistle blows on the XP attempt.  By the time the teams run off the field & the under-post officials have made it upfield, the 15-second warning isn't far off.

[AlUpstateNY]

The simplest answer might be, "The Referee will sound the RFP when he deems both teams and the field officials are all ready for play to commence".  If there is unnecessary delay caused by either team, the Referee has remedies available, when he deems they are appropriate.

[ECILLJ]

In Illinois we have been instructed to hold the RFP whistle until we get everyone lined up correctly. They stressed to us that this rule will be handled with preventative officiating.

[sj_31]

As always, I'll preface this by apologizing in advance if there is already a thread on this...

New rule for 2014 re: 4 on either side of the kicker. Unlike NCAA where it's a "snapshot" at the kick, in Fed it's from the time of the RFP to the kick. Are the traditional "bunch formations/huddles" and then they 'break' just out of the question? Obviously we're not going to ticky-tack this and coach them up especially at the beginning of the season but at the same time the rule was passed for a reason. I assume that the rules committee is indicating that they want these types of pre-kick actions gone.

How are we all going to officiate this from a practical standpoint? Tell the coaches ahead of time that this is a foul this year or are you going to let the kicker "call a play" after the whistle and then they break to their kickoff lanes. Obviously any trickery or surprise onside from this formation is an automatic DB foul for encroachment if they're not perfectly legal.

Thoughts/comments?

[HLinNC]

In NC, at least,  the huddle is dead because you have to have at least 4 on each side of the kicker and once the kicker is designated, you've got to be able to officiate the 4 per side.

See also- http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=11021.0

[sj_31]

The kicker isn't designated until toe meets ball (2-32-8) so what do you do before then?

[HLinNC]

For this situation, the Fed has bent the rules.  There are several discussion threads about it here.

[Ralph Damren]

I plan on telling our guys (officials & coaches) that when the official hands the ball to the kicker, he is the guy expected to do the kicking. If someone else decides to kick we need to be sure that the surprise kicker comes from the side of the expected kicker where there are at least 5 players and that the expected kicker is not more than 5 yards deep. The 3 states that experimented with this reported little confusion and few penalties after the first couple of weeks.

[Atlanta Blue]

Ralph can correct me if I'm wrong, but I was told part of the reason for this rule was to prevent the bunch kickoff.  Problem is, if done right, this doesn't eliminate the bunch kickoff at all.  If the huddle has no player more than 5 yards deep, and the huddle keeps 4 on either side of the kicker, nothing makes them spread out, nothing prevents the bunch, it can be done just as before.

If you can't see there are 4 on either side, that's not a foul.  You have to see that there AREN'T 4 on each side for there to be a foul.  And in that bunch kick, you may not have any idea who the kicker is until he kicks the ball.  If there were then less than 4 on one side of that player, then the play is "retroactively" killed, which also violates the principle that no foul causes the ball to be dead.

FED didn't "bend" the rules here, they butchered them and pieced them back together to fix something that could have easily been prevented by using the word BALL instead of KICKER.

[VALJ]

At our state clinic last night, we were instructed that if K likes up with three on one side of the player who lines up deep as a kicker, to give them a few seconds to try to correct it, and if there's nobody moving to fix the problem shut the play down right away.  For a seven-man crew, the R is going to be the best one to determine this, so it's primarily his call. 

I also think that a good amount of preventive officiating will be in order for the first few weeks of the regular season.  Ultimately, though, if a team gets popped for this once or twice, they'll pay a lot more attention to this and we should have minimal issues as the season progresses.

Not entirely unrelated - the instructor mentioned that there was also a proposal during the rules committee meeting to just eliminate kickoffs entirely that wasn't dismissed out of hand.  Ralph, if you can discuss without giving anything away, how much traction did this idea have?  Is this something that should be on our radar for the next few years as a possibility?

[Ralph Damren]

There was a third rule proposal that would have eliminated the bunch kick by requiring at least 3 yards between each K player. It was very confusing to understand and considered unofficiateble by many and died on the vine. So the K players could bunch as long as there was 4 on each side of the kicker. While plays reflecting some rule changes rarely occur, we are assured of this change occurring at least twice a game (in a 0-0 tie ), so we need to be prepared for it and give the players time to adjust.

[bkdow]

We've had this rule for two years as a test case state.  Our crew, plus the games I filled in on other crews, did not have a single penalty.  We only had one that was close because the player next to the kicker ran behind the kicker about the time the ball was kicked (and it was a deep kick).  There is a lot of discussion about this across the board, however, I don't think it will cause the angst that some thing it will.

[HLinNC]

I don't think it will cause the angst that some thing it will.

I think any angst will result in those coaches who dream up ways to circumvent it.

[bossman72]

We were instructed by the PIAA that if one person is lined up deep past 5 yards, he is the ONLY person that can be the kicker (else, there will be a violation of the 5 yard run-up rule).  So therefore, he cannot have less than 4 players to one side of him at ANY TIME after the ready.

If all K players are within 5 yards of the restraining line, then we must wait until he kicks the ball before we can determine 4 on each side of the kicker.

[Rulesman]

I think any angst will result in those coaches who dream up ways to circumvent it.

+1

[OkieZebra]

The directions we got in Oklahoma were that we could only call the foul when we knew the kicker, so we have to wait until the ball was kicked to make a call (even if someone is lined up past the 35, he isn't the kicker until he kicks it). The only thing we've been told to shut down early is multiple people on or behind the 35.

[HLinNC]

so we have to wait until the ball was kicked to make a call (even if someone is lined up past the 35, he isn't the kicker until he kicks it).

You Okies not get the memo that the Fed suspended the definition of a kicker for this instance? 
 
 

[OkieZebra]

If it isn't sent in smoke signals, we didn't get it.

[mantle]

So what we are saying is that once the ready for play is given, all 11 players are frozen. If there are not at least 4 players on each side of the kicker, we have a dead ball foul immediately after RFP whistle.(assuming the kicker is behind the 35 yard line.) (If all 11 players are inside the zone, we have a dead ball foul when the ball is kicked if less that four are on one side) If more that one player is in contact with the 35 yard line at the RFP we have an immediate dead ball foul. After the RFP whistle, kickers have 25 seconds to kick the ball but no one can move. Only after the kicker is determined do we have a possible dead ball foul.

[ECILLJ]

but no one can move. 

They are allowed to move after the RFP, but they must have at least four on each side of the kicker (ball) when the kick is made and only the kicker can be on or behind the 35 yard line between the RFP and the kick.

[Rulesman]

They are allowed to move after the RFP, but they must have at least four on each side of the kicker (ball) when the kick is made and only the kicker can be on or behind the 35 yard line between the RFP and the kick.

Because of the way a kicker is defined, a better way to say it might be that K must have at least four on each side of the kicker (ball) when toe meets leather, and if one player is on or behind the 35 yard line between the RFP and the kick he must become the kicker.