A/B x Offense/Defense

[dvasques]

I know Team A is the one who puts the ball in play and B the opponent. And Offense is the team who has possession and Defense the opponent.

What I don't know is why was this decided to be like it is.

I can think of the NFL example of holding. OH is 10yds, DH is 5yds so you have to call them A and B and not Off and Def to avoid confusion.

But there is no such difference of yards on enforcements in NCAA (that I can think of). So why was it decided to call A and B instead of Offense and Defese.

The regular audience will allways call the team who puts the ball in play offense and the opponent will always be defense. Hence defensive touchdowns and not offensive TD post posesion.

What was the reason to call A and B?

[jg-me]

At least one reason would be because it is necessary to make penalty administration clear. On plays with a COP both teams will be on offense and defense during the same play. Let’s say B holds prior to the COP and A holds after the COP. Both have committed DH. By designating the two teams as something other than their ball possession status, the rules are able to explain offsetting fouls with minimal confusion. Definitely an aid when studying rules. In real life we can use the actual names of the schools or the color of their uniforms rather than referencing A and B.

[Kalle]

Basically what jg-me said, but to perhaps make things more clear:

Consider rule 9-3-3, Holding and Use of Hands or Arms: Offense. The rule applies only to the players of the team in possession (ie. offense), but the penalty language then refers to team A (the team that put the ball in play). If you lose the term "team A", you will have to rewrite the penalty statement in a much more difficult way (something like "penalties for fouls by the team that put the ball in play before the change of team possession behind the neutral zone are enforced from the previous spot. Safety if the foul by the team that put the ball in play before the change of team possession behind that team's goal line.").

[ElvisLives]

For a bit more of a historical perspective, the references to Team A (or Team B) have not always been in the penalty statements. For a very long time, there was no need to make such identification, because the enforcements were the same, regardless of when/where the foul occurred. For "holding" fouls, specifically, once the passing game rose to such a high level at FBS football, the rules committee decided that penalizing offensive holding from the spot of the foul (in all cases) was too much penalty for Team A, when the foul was behind the neutral zone, considering that most of these fouls were pass blocking fouls, and happen some 3-8 yards behind the NZ to begin with. In effect, Team A was getting penalized 13 - 18 yards for such fouls. For these penalties, it became necessary to begin referencing Team A, since they only apply to the team that put the ball in play, and before a change of team possession (i.e., Team A). All other holding fouls, regardless of which team was in possession, obeyed the 3 & 1 principle. Offense/defense was (and still is) important, because of the 3 and 1 principle.
(By the way, even before they developed the varying enforcement spots for Team A fouls, holding penalties were 15-yards. By the same "too much penalty" logic, the rules committee reduced holding to a 10-yard penalty.)
There are a number of other fouls and penalties that also are dependent upon whether they are committed by "Team A" or "Team B". Illegal motion can only apply to Team A. All "loss-of-down" penalties can only apply to Team A. Kick-Catch Interference can only apply to Team B. There are more, but you get the idea.
I'll have to go back and look at my older rule books, but I think there were relatively few references to Team A and Team B "in the old days." Neither a good, nor a bad, thing - just different.

[bama_stripes]

Kick-Catch Interference can only apply to Team B.

Showing my NCAA ignorance here, but do they no longer use “R”/“K” designations?  If not, does the A/B designation change after the ball is kicked?

[ElvisLives]

Showing my NCAA ignorance here, but do they no longer use “R”/“K” designations?  If not, does the A/B designation change after the ball is kicked?

NCAA has never used “K” and “R” as designations. Team A is Team A, and Team B is Team B for the entire down, for all downs (free kicks and scrimmage downs).
However, when reporting fouls to the referee, or when the Referee makes an announcement, the terms “Team A” and “Team B” should never be used. Always use:
Offense
Defense
Kicking team
Receiving team

Occasionally, the R may need to use these in his announcement:
Passing team
Return team
Fumbling team
Recovering team
Team name(s)*

*Be danged sure you have the correct name of the team, including any local preference. Our referee once announced, “Timeout, Nevada, Reno...” and the crowd erupted in an enormous chorus of booooooooos.” They staunchly consider themselves THE university in Nevada, and want to be referenced as Nevada, only.

[bama_stripes]

OK, thanks. The reason I asked was because I was puzzled by “Kick-Catch Interference can only apply to Team B.”

[CalhounLJ]

OK, thanks. The reason I asked was because I was puzzled by “Kick-Catch Interference can only apply to Team B.”

I’m no NCAA guy either,but I think he meant team A. That is, if it’s team A that kicks.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ElvisLives]

I’m no NCAA guy either,but I think he meant team A. That is, if it’s team A that kicks.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Ooops. Yes, I meant Team A. I was thinking that KCI can only happen TO a team B player.
 
BTW, KCI can only apply to a free or scrimmage kick made by Team A. An "Illegal Kick" (punt, drop kick, or place kick) by either team would be dead the instant the ball is kicked, so no KCI possibility. While the ball remains alive when "Illegally Kicking the Ball" occurs (kicking of a loose ball by either team), KCI can only apply to a "free or scrimmage kick" (which, by definition, must be made legally - otherwise they are illegal kicks - dead instantly - or illegally kicking the ball, neither of which are "free or scrimmage kicks," so KCI does not apply). 

[dvasques]

I understand how A/B help make things clearer if you're thinking that offense is the team in posession of the ball.

But if you call Offense the team that put the ball in play (which is how the general public calls) and defense the opponent, then the example of 9-3-3 doesn't make sense.
I mean, maybe the rules would have to be written differently, but 9-3-3 would be the same. Only you'd say "Offensive penalties behind the neutral zone are enforced from the previous spot". Since offense is the team that put the ball in play, there's no confusion there.

I'm sure I'm missing something and that's why I'm asking you, guys. And I'll read all comments more carefully and try to understand where is the confusion if you don't use A/B but use Offense/Defense as fixed terms instead.

And all this is only to try and explain to aspiring officials the reason why officials have A and B as terms, without saying "because the book tells you so"

[dvasques]

I guess maybe a better question would be

Why do we call offense the team in posession of the ball?


Why not call it like fans, players and commentators call it? When you have an COP and a TD nobody calls it an offensive TD. It's a defensive TD.
We call it TB by the offense, which is Team B.

[ElvisLives]

I guess maybe a better question would be

Why do we call offense the team in posession of the ball?


Why not call it like fans, players and commentators call it? When you have an COP and a TD nobody calls it an offensive TD. It's a defensive TD.
We call it TB by the offense, which is Team B.

Because the term 'offense' is the attacking team. The term 'defense' means the defending team. And those terms are always relative to whichever team has the ball at that moment, and NOT to the romantic designations that are assigned to them by their coaches or the media. Although Tom Brady is always called an offensive player by coaches/fans/media/broadcasters, every time he threw an interception, he instantly became a defensive player. A touchdown scored by Team B is an offensive touchdown, whether that is a kick return, an interception return, or a fumble return. So, all touchdowns and field goals are offensive scores. A safety is the only defensive score. As officials, we don't care what statisticians consider offensive or defensive scores.

The rules distinguish offense/defense from Team A/Team B, because, fundamentally, offensive fouls are penalized differently than defensive fouls. By the 3 and 1 principle, offensive live-ball contact/UNR/UNS fouls behind the Basic Spot are enforced from the spot of the foul. Defensive live-ball contact/UNR/UNS fouls are penalized from the Basic Spot. And that is regardless of Team A or Team B. (Yes, there are exceptions for Team A offensive fouls behind the NZ, but the fundamental rule is the natural 3 & 1 principle.)

Example 1: B99 intercepts A11's pass and returns the ball to the A-30 where he is tackled and the ball becomes dead. During B99's return, B80 blocked A75 below the waist at the 50. By the 3 & 1 principle, that BBW penalty will be enforced from the spot of the foul (50), because it is an offensive foul behind the Basic Spot.

Example 2:  B99 intercepts A11's pass and returns the ball to the A-30 where he is tackled and the ball becomes dead. During B99's return, A75 blocked B80 below the waist at the 50. By the 3 & 1 principle, that BBW penalty is enforced at the Basic Spot (A-30), because it is a defensive foul.

Please. Please. Please! I beg you. Pay NO attention to media, broadcasters, coaches, statisticians, or average fans with regard to anything remotely associated with the rules of the game, or officiating the game.  They only know enough to cause confusion (as in this case). 

[dvasques]

I don't pay attention to the general public words. The thing is I was trying to find a way to explain the reason why we have those terms. And the only explanation I found was the holding penalty in NFL. That is 5 for defense and 10 for offense and that would create the need to define offense as the team who has posession and create A/B to solve that mess.

But the 3 and 1 really explains it. I hadn't gotten that from your earlier post but now I got it.

Thanks!!!