Enforcement puzzle

[mbyron]

NFHS rules:

Ohio's director of officiating development for football visited our association meeting last night and posed this question to the group:

A snaps the ball with 6 men on the line. During the run, A1 fumbles. B1 recovers the ball and starts running. During B1's run, B2 commits an illegal block in the back. Near the goal line, B1 fumbles the ball, which bounces into and then out of the back of the end zone.

What happens next?

[Kirby]

I believe the ball was fumbled into and out of A's end zone. If so...

One interpretation:

The FED has codified in the rules that the penalty for Rouging-the-Passer will be enforced from the previous spot if the result of the play is a touchback. Which basically interprets a touchback as a change of possession. The result of this play is a touchback. Using the Roughing-the-passer interp, team B is not in possession at the end of the down. Therefore, enforcement for this play would be offsetting fouls, Team A's ball at the previous spot.

Will be interested to see other replies.

[BoBo]

If B declines A illegal formation penalty, they get the ball with clean hands, as that result B is now in possession of the ball. By B fumbling the ball into the endzone and out of it it will result in a touchback so A would decline the B penalty thus getting the ball 1st and ten at the 20.

With that all being said if explained correctly B should accept the illegal formation penalty and A should decline the B flag and A's ball 1st and ten at the 20 as a result of the touchback.

[ECILLJ]

I agree with BoBo.

[Kirby]

If B declines A illegal formation penalty, they get the ball with clean hands, as that result B is now in possession of the ball. By B fumbling the ball into the endzone and out of it it will result in a touchback so A would decline the B penalty thus getting the ball 1st and ten at the 20.

With that all being said if explained correctly B should accept the illegal formation penalty and A should decline the B flag and A's ball 1st and ten at the 20 as a result of the touchback.

Bobo, I must be missing something here. If you somehow end up with A declining the penalty for B's foul and B accepting the penalty for A's foul, the basic spot for penalty enforcement is the previous spot. How do you enforce the penalty, but still wind up with A getting the ball via the result of the play (touchback)?

[hoochycoochy]

B's fumble into the EZ is not a COP.  A COP is defined in 2-34-3:  "A change of possession occurs when the opponent gains player possession during the down".  This means that the only way A could have gained possession of B's fumble is for one of their players to catch or recover B's fumble, just as B recovered A's fumble.   

In this play, B got the ball with clean hands.  They can decline the IF and keep the ball or they can accept the IF and we'll replay the down.  IF B declines the IF, the basic spot is the end of the run but their foul occurred behind the basic spot (I'm assuming) and will be penalized from the spot of the foul.  IF the IBB takes place ahead of the end of the run, then we'll penalize from the end of the run. 

EDIT:  I got ahead of myself.  A does have an option to decline the BIB resulting in a touchback.  A's ball 1/10 at the 20. 

[BoBo]

First off in the original play I am assuming when B fumbles it is going into team A end zone.

I think we can all agree if B accepts the penalty for IF and A accepts the penalty BIB we will be replaying the down.

If team B declines the penalty for IF, by rule the have recovered the ball with "clean hands". The penalty for BIB occurs behind the runner who is going into the endzone to score. If he were to score a TD or tackled before scoring we would enforce the penalty from the penalty flag aka spot of the foul. 10 yards 1st and 10 team B

BUT

The catch here is the fumble. Lets say there is no flag and the team B player going into the endzone of team A fumbles the football into and out of the endzone we have a touchback rewarded to team A.

SO

Team A would in the play have to decline the penalty of Team Bs BIB to take the results of the play.

With that all being said and as I have probably confused you and myself-

1. If team B accepts the penalty of IF on team A, then team A will accept the penalty on team B BIB and replay the down.

2. If team B declines the penalty of IF on team A, then team could decline the penalty of BIB on team B and should get the ball 1st and 10 on the 20 yard line.

I took my time this go around and typed slower and hopefully cleared up any mistakes with my first response.


sidenote if for some reason Team B declines, and team A accepts BIB then team B would get the ball 10 yards from the spot of the foul for BIB and 1st and 10.

[Wont_Do_To_Tell]

I too am assuming B fumble forward into A's endzone, thus the result of the play is a touchback.

Saying that, since B was "last in possession" and B's foul was after the "change of possession", B would have the option to accept or decline the Ill. Formation foul on A.  They may or may not, depending on the field position A had at the beginning of the down and score.  Regardless, if B accepts the Ill Form, then A will then have the option to decline or accept the block in the back. If both A and B accept the fouls, we have a Double Foul and we replay the down. 

[RickKY]

Assuming B funbled into and through A's enzone...

Both penalties are declined:  Result of the play means A gets new series at A-20.
Both penalties accepted:  A replays down at previous spot
There is no scenario that gives B the ball.  The location of the previous spot relative to the A-20 would be the factor in determining if B accepts A's penalty or not.

[takemeaway10]

Scenario 1: B accepts the Illegal Formation. A accepts the IBW. Double foul, offsetting penalties, A's ball, replay the down.
Scenario 2: B accepts the penalty. A declines the penalty. Five yards back from the LOS, A's ball, replay the down.
Scenario 3: B declines the penalty. A accepts the penalty. Ten yards back from the spot of the foul, B's ball, 1st & 10.
Scenario 4: B declines the penalty. A declines the penalty. Touchback, A's ball, 1st & 10 at their own 20 yd. line.

[Bob M.]

Scenario 1: B accepts the Illegal Formation. A accepts the IBW. Double foul, offsetting penalties, A's ball, replay the down.
Scenario 2: B accepts the penalty. A declines the penalty. Five yards back from the LOS, A's ball, replay the down.
Scenario 3: B declines the penalty. A accepts the penalty. Ten yards back from the spot of the foul, B's ball, 1st & 10.
Scenario 4: B declines the penalty. A declines the penalty. Touchback, A's ball, 1st & 10 at their own 20 yd. line.

REPLY: For scenarios 1 and 2, as soon as B accepts the penalty for A's illegal formation foul, it's a double foul--replay. A gets no choices after that. It's over once B accepts the penalty and we replay

[takemeaway10]

I see. To be honest, I wasn't aware that there was a rule regarding double fouls when fouls occur after a change of possession until this question came up.

[Magician]

REPLY: For scenarios 1 and 2, as soon as B accepts the penalty for A's illegal formation foul, it's a double foul--replay. A gets no choices after that. It's over once B accepts the penalty and we replay

Bob...why do I keep reading these threads thinking there is one key point everyone is missing but before I can get to the bottom of the thread you have made my exact point?

[Bob M.]

Bob...why do I keep reading these threads thinking there is one key point everyone is missing but before I can get to the bottom of the thread you have made my exact point?

REPLY: Because it seems both you and I have too much time on our hands (but don't tell my wife...or my boss).

[RickKY]

Why does B get the first option in this case?

[hoochycoochy]

Because 10-2-2 applies.  This is the clean hands rule.  B got it with clean hands and therefore has the first choice whether to accept A's illegal formation, which would result in a double foul (10-2-1b?) or to decline the IF in which case A now has the option to accept or decline the IBB.  A would decline and since now both fouls are declined, we have a touchback as a result of the play and A will be awarded a new series.  The only good outcome for B in this play is to accept the IF which creates the double foul and replay the down. 

[Bob M.]

I see. To be honest, I wasn't aware that there was a rule regarding double fouls when fouls occur after a change of possession until this question came up.

REPLY: Just remember that for the team NOT last gaining possession, it doesn't matter when their foul(s) were committed--before or after the COP. 10-2-2 doesn't care. All that matters to 10-2-2 is that the team last gaining possession fouled AFTER gaining that possession (unless of course their foul is subject to PSK enforcement).