Author Topic: Correcting a down  (Read 32211 times)

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Offline riffraft

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2015, 10:33:10 PM »
The rules and the case books seem to agree.  The Referee has the authority to correct the number of the next down.  If a 5th down was awarded the "correction" would revert back to where the ball was before the "extra" play was run and B would be awarded the ball because A hadn't gained a first down.
Any other error by the down box, scoreboard, or officials may be "corrected" by the Referee declaring the proper next down.  Whatever happened on the disputed down stands.  NO DO-OVERS !!

We certainly aren't going to allow a do-over if the home team down box or scoreboard conveniently displayed the wrong down at a critical point of the game and the play just doesn't work out in their favor.

The rules book and the case book do have a slightly different time frame as to when it is too late for a correction.  Case book says until a new series is awarded.  Rules book says until the ball becomes alive after a new series is awarded.

We were told in our state meeting that with a change of possession (such as a punt on 3rd down, when the box says 4th down) that as long as the team now in possession has snapped the ball there is a do-over.  The key being that a new series has not been awarded and that is interpreted as the ball not being snapped on the new 1st down.  So we are having do-overs, so again do screw up the down

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2015, 08:44:55 AM »
...as long as the team now in possession has snapped the ball there is a do-over.  The key being that a new series has not been awarded and that is interpreted as the ball not being snapped on the new 1st down.
??? These statements contradict each other.
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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2015, 11:45:16 AM »
We were told in our state meeting that with a change of possession (such as a punt on 3rd down, when the box says 4th down) that as long as the team now in possession has snapped the ball there is a do-over.

Opening a "Do-over" door is absolute INSANITY, and will create far more problems than it would otherwise be necessary to correct.  Yes, it is a situation that every official is responsible to avoid, and which great pains and constant mechanics have been designed to, and are effectively, correcting.

However it is, and well should be, the RESPONSIBILITY of every Coach to be aware of the correct down BEFORE calling any play, and when and if there is any question regarding the display of down, Coaches have the ability to question the accuracy of the display WITHOUT PENALTY, when they are correct.  Team statisticians are available to Coaching Staffs to help avoid any misunderstandings.

This clearly is a solution in search of a problem, and will be counterproductive. 

wvoref

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2015, 12:28:33 PM »
Opening a "Do-over" door is absolute INSANITY, and will create far more problems than it would otherwise be necessary to correct.  Yes, it is a situation that every official is responsible to avoid, and which great pains and constant mechanics have been designed to, and are effectively, correcting.

However it is, and well should be, the RESPONSIBILITY of every Coach to be aware of the correct down BEFORE calling any play, and when and if there is any question regarding the display of down, Coaches have the ability to question the accuracy of the display WITHOUT PENALTY, when they are correct.  Team statisticians are available to Coaching Staffs to help avoid any misunderstandings.

This clearly is a solution in search of a problem, and will be counterproductive.


Agree with everything you said and used the exact same sentiments as you did in your final paragraph. Only problem is I'm not sure rules committee is on same page we are.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2015, 12:55:39 PM »
The down is 100% the responsibility of the officials, not the coach.  Sure, the coach can ask for it to be corrected if he believes it is wrong.  But if a coach asks the official for the down, he has to be able to rely on that information, as the official is the SOLE keeper of that fact.  Want proof of that?  Take this situation:  R says it's 4th down.  Coach says it's 3rd down.  Coach shows the R the play sheet that shows what plays he has run this series, and the statistician's report.  R says, "Sorry, you must have missed one, it's 4th down."  So what down is it?  It's 4th down, because that's what the referee said it is.  The officials are the SOLE keeper of the correct down.  Coaches have ZERO responsibility for the down.

I ask the official what down it is.  I'm told it's third down.  I run a play and fail to reach the LTG.  As I send out my punt team, the R says, "You know, I know I told you it was third down, but it was really 4th.  B's ball."   Sorry, that needs to be corrected.  In legal terms, its called "detrimental reliance".

If the speed limit is posted as 55, and I'm going 55, the police can't give me a ticket and say, "I know what the sign says, but it's really 35 in this area."

yes, replaying downs is going to be ugly, and this is certainly a can of worms.  But it's ridiculous to say the coach has sole responsibility for knowing the correct down.


Offline FLAHL

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2015, 02:29:07 PM »
If we as officials truly screw up the down, I'll enforce whatever the NFHS says, just like we do with an IW.

I am more concerned about what happens when we all know what down it is, but the box says something else. THAT is the can of worms that I hope we avoid opening.

wvoref

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2015, 06:16:55 PM »
If we as officials truly screw up the down, I'll enforce whatever the NFHS says, just like we do with an IW.

I am more concerned about what happens when we all know what down it is, but the box says something else. THAT is the can of worms that I hope we avoid opening.

That is the responsibility of the Referee to insure the down box is correct before giving the RFP.  Now when it is incorrect it is the HL I inform so that he can get it corrected but under ordinary circumstances I don't want my HL turning his.back to the field of play to check the down box.  This doesn't eliminate responsibility of the rest of the crew to help Ref and even to insure he has the right down.

And yes I agree with AB that we officials are sole determinants of down number and if we screw up some correction should be made.  But if we have the down number wrong I would hope the "offended" coach would at least question us prior to the ball being snapped, and if we aren't cognizant enough to recognize our mistake then I doubt we're going to figure it out a play or two later.

Offline prab

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2015, 10:21:20 PM »
Do you remember the "offense which shall not be named" and "4 players each side of the kicker FROM THE RFP AND UNTIL THE KICK"?  Each produced much turmoil and prediction of disaster.  Both were eventually addressed by the NFHS and we have sailed on.  I expect that this too shall come to pass, after a year or two of agony.  The law of unintended consequences strikes again!  I am guessing that the NFHS will issue some guidance for the 2015 season and then rethink the problem and issue new guidelines for 2016 and beyond.

Offline riffraft

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2015, 10:38:10 PM »
??? These statements contradict each other.

sorry that was a typo "hasn't snapped"

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2015, 12:03:05 PM »
I am guessing that the NFHS will issue some guidance for the 2015 season and then rethink the problem and issue new guidelines for 2016 and beyond.

IOW, Don't screw up the down number THIS year!

Offline yarnnelg

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2015, 05:43:21 PM »
Doesn't the rule state "Shall have the authority" ? It doesn't say "Shall correct" I think it leaves a lot of consideration regarding impact.

Our crew depended on me, as Line Judge to "Boom out" down on every play, plus insure the box flipped. Maybe because of my big mouth. "First down! First down!" And watch the box. If the White Hat knew where we were LOS wise it helped on penalty enforcement as well. We just don't have those problems, plus our HL has the box man repeating my instructions as well.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2015, 10:39:46 AM »
If we as officials truly screw up the down, I'll enforce whatever the NFHS says, just like we do with an IW.

I am more concerned about what happens when we all know what down it is, but the box says something else. THAT is the can of worms that I hope we avoid opening.
PET PEVES:
 -In baseball, when the wrong count or outs is on the scoreboard. Yes ,I know the ump is official BUT I want to be sure the players & coaches know before the ball is pitched = get the scoreboard operator's attention and get it corrected, even if I need to call time out.

 -In football, when the downs marker is wrong.= OTO, first verify that you're right and he's wrong and get it corrected prior to new RFP. The entire crew should echo, with their fingers, before the RFP on every snap.

 -Lima beans, NY Yankees, and the such....

PS :The new spiffy interpretations deals basically about the subject. NFHs.org>athletics>football>2015-16 rules interpretations.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2015, 02:05:39 AM »
A down here, a down there, we had something worse here...

During the second quarter home team RB runs for a long and apparent touchdown (the line judge signals a touchdown). Everybody except the referee thinks that a touchdown is scored. The referee rules the runner out at B-5 and does not signal a score. The ball is spotted, after an argument, at B-3. Everybody except the referee thinks that the PAT is good. The referee is slightly confused as to why the team kicks on the first down, but signals score and marks down three points. The scoreboard operator adds seven points to the home team.

After about 10 minutes (real time) the referee tells the home team that they actually have four fewer points than everybody else thinks that they have. At this time the scoreboard is corrected. The final score is 18-20.

Now, what do you do as the referee at the time you realize there is a major confusion on the score? As the governing organization after the game?

Offline Blackandwhite

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2015, 03:18:55 AM »
That one trumps a horrible time out problem we had in a conference this year ....

I hope they had a fast car ...

As a referee I don `t know. By heart at the moment I would do a head coaches conference to clearify the problem but this is only by heart .....

As the governing organization: ask for a written report, swear, curse, swear, curse, take a reminder for the next courses concerning crew mechanics ...... (and again decision by heart:) the ruling stands on the field   

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2015, 06:26:31 AM »
A down here, a down there, we had something worse here...

During the second quarter home team RB runs for a long and apparent touchdown (the line judge signals a touchdown). Everybody except the referee thinks that a touchdown is scored. The referee rules the runner out at B-5 and does not signal a score. The ball is spotted, after an argument, at B-3. Everybody except the referee thinks that the PAT is good. The referee is slightly confused as to why the team kicks on the first down, but signals score and marks down three points. The scoreboard operator adds seven points to the home team.

After about 10 minutes (real time) the referee tells the home team that they actually have four fewer points than everybody else thinks that they have. At this time the scoreboard is corrected. The final score is 18-20.

Now, what do you do as the referee at the time you realize there is a major confusion on the score? As the governing organization after the game?
Just slightly confused? Does this crew not communicate with each other?
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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2015, 06:41:52 AM »
Wow.  There are so many things wrong there that it baffles the mind!  That rivals the screwup I saw (on film) in a South Georgia game last year.  A scores a TD, late hit on the runner after he scores, enforced on the kickoff.  Kickoff is now from the B45.  Kicker puts kickoff through the uprights, and the referee awarded 3 points.  Over 80 years of combined experience on the crew, and they awarded 3 points.  The crew had a few weeks off to think about it, and didn't work any playoff games.

Now, what do you do as the referee at the time you realize there is a major confusion on the score?
Have a crew meeting, fast, away from both teams, and see if the rest of the crew can explain what really happened.  But wow, this is a hole that will be tough to get out of.

Quote
As the governing organization after the game?
Look to see who can be promoted to referee from another crew, because this crew is going to need a new one.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2015, 07:21:53 AM »
Unfortunately the referee in this case was inexperienced, just like the rest of the crew. Here in Finland we don't have the luxury of always having at least an experienced referee, sometimes we end up with extremely inexperienced crews - and this is the result.

The cause was the fact that the referee semi-silently overruled the line judge (based on the video, nobody really know why) and did not communicate this to the teams (and the scoreboard). I think the lesson we take here in Finland out of this is that you can rarely overcommunicate - if there's anything even slightly strange, take the minute to go to both coaches and explain to them what has happened and what is the ruling.

Offline Blackandwhite

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2015, 07:49:16 AM »
Well thats the problem over here in Europe. Experience have to be built up and you have to cope with the problem of very few colleagues (for sometimes a lot of games)....
Most often the lowest leagues have to suffer and these are the leagues with the most ^flag

 


Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2015, 08:09:03 AM »
Wow.  There are so many things wrong there that it baffles the mind!  That rivals the screwup I saw (on film) in a South Georgia game last year.  A scores a TD, late hit on the runner after he scores, enforced on the kickoff.  Kickoff is now from the B45.  Kicker puts kickoff through the uprights, and the referee awarded 3 points.  Over 80 years of combined experience on the crew, and they awarded 3 points.  The crew had a few weeks off to think about it, and didn't work any playoff games.

In 1947, a rule was added that allowed a drop kick that is used as a return kick to score a field goal. In 1965, the return kick was eliminated. If 68 of those 80 years of experience belonged to the white hat, he may have gotten those rule changes confused ???.

SOURCE : NFHS Handbook

Offline VALJ

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2015, 09:20:03 AM »
What the heck is the R doing determining that the runner went OOB anyway?  There's the problem in the first place....  And if the R decided he was OOB at the 5, why didn't he question the reason that the snap was from the 3 instead of the 5?

I know, Kalle said "nobody knew why" already.  But if I'm working L and the R is going to overrule me on whether a player is OOB, he'd best be ready to either trade hats, or move me to another spot on the field - if he can see that better than I can, that vision belongs on the wing to start with.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2015, 09:21:30 AM »
Wow.  There are so many things wrong there that it baffles the mind!  That rivals the screwup I saw (on film) in a South Georgia game last year.  A scores a TD, late hit on the runner after he scores, enforced on the kickoff.  Kickoff is now from the B45.  Kicker puts kickoff through the uprights, and the referee awarded 3 points.  Over 80 years of combined experience on the crew, and they awarded 3 points.  The crew had a few weeks off to think about it, and didn't work any playoff games.

In 1947, a rule was added that allowed a drop kick that is used as a return kick to score a field goal. In 1965, the return kick was eliminated. If 68 of those 80 years of experience belonged to the white hat, he may have gotten those rule changes confused ???.

SOURCE : NFHS Handbook

I've said it in other situations, they didn't have 80 years of experience, they had 1 year of experience 80 times.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2015, 02:10:15 PM »
The down is 100% the responsibility of the officials, not the coach.   because that's what the referee said it is.  The officials are the SOLE keeper of the correct down.  Coaches have ZERO responsibility for the down. In legal terms, its called "detrimental reliance".

Thankfully, we're not in a courtroom, where far too often people are allowed to get themselves tied up in knots parsing words to mean whatever they want.  We operate on interscholastic athletic fields, where hopefully players learn about accepting personal responsibilities, rather than deflecting them to others.

Coaches are SOLELY (usually) responsible for selecting which plays to call, which REQUIRES understanding the correct circumstances they're playing under.  Knowing the circumstances, which includes questioning them when there is doubt, is the Coaches responsibility, and failing to do so rests with him.

In absolutely no way does that absolve game officials for failing to correctly satisfy their requirements of displaying correct information, but that is a separate failure, subject to separate and distinct consequences and it DOES NOT ABSOLVE the Coach for neglecting his responsibility of KNOWING the correct circumstances for which he is responsible to select the proper play for.

We all pursue perfection, and few if any EVER catch it.  A major part of the game of football involves how we react, respond, learn from and avoid repeating mistakes.  Mistakes WE make, even those resulting from the actions of others are NOT THE FAULT of those others, OUR mistakes are caused by OUR failure to react and respond to the circumstances we are presented with, and responsible to adjust for. 

This interpretation, creating "do overs" does NOT improve or enhance the game, and hopefully will be corrected and reversed.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 02:12:47 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline Kevin Durst

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2015, 03:37:21 PM »
I am obviously not looking at something the right way here and am getting confused, and could use a little help.  The following was the first item on the 2015 NFHS Football Rules Interpretation paper the NFHS sent out:

SITUATION 1: Second down and
six. On the last play of the third period,
A38 runs for 3 yards. After the
play, the down-marker indicator is
flipped to fourth down. Following a
brief pause to ensure no reason to
defer ending the quarter, the referee
holds the ball over his head. Both
teams change ends of the field and the
chains are reversed. Before the ball is
snapped for the first play of the fourth
period, Team A’s coach recognizes the
down error. RULING: The third period
officially ended when the referee
held the ball over his head. The down
error may not be corrected. (5-1-1)

I am having trouble understanding their ruling that the down can not be corrected.  Another play has not been run.  The ball has not been put in play.  We know it was 2nd down now it is third, even though the box man flipped the dial to the wrong down.  Seems like a simple thing to flip the box back from 4 to the 3 that it should be.  Any help in interpreting this would be appreciated.

ECILLJ

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2015, 03:47:53 PM »
Kevin,

Our Association reviewed the same document and I agree with you, this is an easy fix on the field. If we officiate this play as written, we are asking for trouble. :!#

Maybe we are missing something.  ???

Offline prab

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2015, 07:17:18 PM »
Maybe we are missing something.  ???

I don't think that you are missing anything.  This scenario ranks right up there with the "hash marks bisecting the yard lines".

I expect the NFHS to change this particular ruling before the season is over.