Author Topic: A fouls A? (Read 5826 times)

JDM · « **on:** January 28, 2021, 11:06:34 AM »

Kalle · « **Reply #1 on:** January 28, 2021, 11:51:40 AM »

~~I don't see any foul by or against any of the visible team A players.~~ Did not watch it all the way through, and Etref said all I have to say.

Etref · « **Reply #2 on:** January 28, 2021, 12:37:10 PM »

If you are speaking of the slap to the head, rule is striking an opponent

Kalle · « **Reply #3 on:** January 28, 2021, 01:03:24 PM »

You could have a USC foul in some cases but not here.

MAFBRef · « **Reply #4 on:** January 28, 2021, 01:39:35 PM »

Happened once to me at a high school game. See-saw game to the end. Losing team (which had not won a game that season) gave up a late, game clinching touchdown. Lined up for the try. All of a sudden 2 Team B DBs were attacked by Inside LB. He lost his cool when they were yelling at him that his play cost them the game. Once we got them separated, sent all 3 off to the coaches for them to handle. Rest of game clock ran very fast.

dammitbobby · « **Reply #5 on:** January 28, 2021, 10:07:04 PM »

That may be the rule, but I think it should be changed. The whole point of 'unsportsmanlike' fouls are that they are, by nature, unsportsmanlike actions. We can throw a flag for taking a swing at the opponent, flipping off the crowd (their side or opponents) or opposing sidelines, but not for being a jackass towards his own teammates or sideline, with potentially player safety implications, if they got into a fistfight and started swinging helmets. (yes, I know the flag won't make hitting someone with a helmet less likely to injure, but as in taunting, it's supposed to be a deterrent to inappropriate behavior.)

Regardless of who he hit or took a swing at or flipped off, it should be penalized the same, because it at its heart, an unsportsmanlike act, regardless of the intended audience. Just my .02 and change

JasonTX · « **Reply #6 on:** January 29, 2021, 11:01:45 AM »

If you flag a player for punching his own teammate you are penalizing the player that got punched as well. He done nothing wrong so why should his team be penalized?

JDM · « **Reply #7 on:** January 29, 2021, 12:11:35 PM »

Quote from: Etref on January 28, 2021, 12:37:10 PM

If you are speaking of the slap to the head, rule is striking an opponent

Under 9-1-2, agreed.

What about 9-2-1 / 9-2-1-a-1(j)? "Opponent" is not specified in the rule statement.

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #8 on:** January 29, 2021, 12:49:56 PM »

Quote from: dammitbobby on January 28, 2021, 10:07:04 PM

That may be the rule, but I think it should be changed.

Regardless of who he hit or took a swing at or flipped off, it should be penalized the same, because it at its heart, an unsportsmanlike act, regardless of the intended audience. Just my .02 and change

Actually such behavior is NOT "unsportsmanlike", it's just stupid & childish and is something BEST addressed by a parent (or Coach). Because players all wear helmets, you can't grab the offender by the ear and drag him to his Coach, but YOU CAN ESCORT/DIRECT him to his Coach (after separating him from his target) and let his Coach (hopefully acting like a disappointed parent) deal with this unacceptable behavior, as the Coach sees fit.

Doubtful (hopefully) it would necessary, but if so, advising said Coach ANY repeat of such behavior, BY ANYONE will result in instant disqualification, isn't a bad idea.

Legacy Zebra · « **Reply #9 on:** January 29, 2021, 01:56:03 PM »

Al, you’re saying it’s not unsportsmanlike, but you’re going to force a player to leave the game and disqualify him if he does it again? How can you justify that? If it’s not illegal how can you penalize him for it?

“Coach what he did was stupid, but it’s not illegal. Now if he does it again we’re going to eject him, even though it’s still not illegal.”

This is a team issue and the team can deal with it. IMO, flagging the player in the video is looking for trouble. And I’m dang sure not giving a coach a mandate to deal with the player or threatening to dq him if it happens again.

dammitbobby · « **Reply #10 on:** January 29, 2021, 05:10:11 PM »

Quote from: JasonTX on January 29, 2021, 11:01:45 AM

If you flag a player for punching his own teammate you are penalizing the player that got punched as well. He done nothing wrong so why should his team be penalized?

I don't disagree... maybe he should just be forced to not participate for a down or two? I dunno. It just doesn't seem right to me, that there are no specified consequences.

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #11 on:** January 29, 2021, 05:26:50 PM »

I would hope, and expect, that ANY/EVERY Coach would NOT condone such behavior, nor allow such behavior to repeat. If so, I'm afraid the problem is much bigger than a player acting like a complete idiot.

Anticipating the Coach would take responsibility and INSURE his overly aggressive player would not repeat his behavior and accept that responsibility to effectively deal with his player, would be my primary objective.

However necessary, I'm confident that Coach, and the Officiating crew, would be able to reach a practical consensus to insure and GUARANTEE that behavior did not repeat and avoid ANY threat of continued, or repeat violence, by WHATEVER means necessary.

ump_ben · « **Reply #12 on:** January 29, 2021, 05:45:42 PM »

Quote from: JasonTX on January 29, 2021, 11:01:45 AM

If you flag a player for punching his own teammate you are penalizing the player that got punched as well. He done nothing wrong so why should his team be penalized?

Change the rule and flag it. What's the downside? If A's coach doesn't want the penalty, he'll decline it.

JasonTX · « **Reply #13 on:** January 29, 2021, 07:54:42 PM »

Quote from: ump_ben on January 29, 2021, 05:45:42 PM

Change the rule and flag it. What's the downside? If A's coach doesn't want the penalty, he'll decline it.

The downside is our focus should be on opposing players and not teammates. We should never have to keep eyes on teammates when there isn't an opponent in the same area.

clearwall · « **Reply #14 on:** February 01, 2021, 07:33:01 AM »

I think we have two sides here arguing letter vs spirit of. The rule. By strict definition, do we have a UNS or even fighting here? Yeah, probably but why is this rule in place? It's to prevent young athletic and strong men from getting hot headed and getting into a brawl and injuring their opponent. I agree with those saying we should do nothing here except talk to these guys, remind them that they're on the same side and if needed, send them to their coach for a play to get this worked out. Now, if something like this devolves into something that is a spectacle and is delaying the game, that's a different story. Now you're upsetting the balance of the game for everyone, not just your own team. That's when I'd get a little more stern and think about flashing something but even then, it's a tough deal to award a team that was never offended by anything.

HLinNC · « **Reply #15 on:** February 01, 2021, 09:45:04 AM »

I don't work the college level nor NCAA rule set. but I'm not inserting myself into a team problem. Someone on the staff probably saw it and can call in on the headset to somebody on the sideline about it if they didn't. You hear teammates jumping on each other all the time out on the field. Unless the're yelling profanities or other language frowned upon by my state, its a team issue.

Since I'm on the wing, the two players are beyond my speaking range. If the white hat wants to say something to them, they're in his zone.

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #16 on:** February 01, 2021, 10:02:39 AM »

Quote from: clearwall on February 01, 2021, 07:33:01 AM

I think we have two sides here arguing letter vs spirit of. The rule. By strict definition, do we have a UNS or even fighting here? Yeah, probably but why is this rule in place? It's to prevent young athletic and strong men from getting hot headed and getting into a brawl and injuring their opponent. I agree with those saying we should do nothing here except talk to these guys, remind them that they're on the same side and if needed, send them to their coach for a play to get this worked out. Now, if something like this devolves into something that is a spectacle and is delaying the game, that's a different story. Now you're upsetting the balance of the game for everyone, not just your own team. That's when I'd get a little more stern and think about flashing something but even then, it's a tough deal to award a team that was never offended by anything.

Well said. The problem with hypothetical situations is that everyone is able to paint their own picture, from trivial to extreme. As suggested, neither team is disadvantaged by such foolishness. As often stated, "One size NEVER fits all", so perhaps the most practical approach would be to simply interrupt such foolishness as quickly & quietly as possible and allow (and/or assist) the team parent (Coach) to deal with and prevent any further childish behavior.

Covid 22 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 01, 2021, 12:08:17 PM »

I may be wrong but there is no ambiguity in the rule about when a punch/kick is attempted whether it connects or not. Disqualification.

Now if you don't want to call this a punch but it was more than "come on 68 I am tired of your matador blocking" of as some call it a "Look Out Block" then let the culprit know that next time it will be considered a punch and out he goes.

Just saying.

Kalle · « **Reply #18 on:** February 01, 2021, 01:30:03 PM »

Quote from: Covid 22 on February 01, 2021, 12:08:17 PM

I may be wrong but there is no ambiguity in the rule about when a punch/kick is attempted whether it connects or not. Disqualification.

I guess you mean fighting?

Rule 2-32-1 (emphasis mine): "Fighting is any attempt by a player, coach or squad member in uniform to strike an opponent in a combative manner unrelated to football."

Covid 22 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 01, 2021, 03:28:26 PM »

If a player punches another player in the face, they are opponents.

You are right of course and I know this is NCAA but I would like to believe that there is some point where you disqualify a player for fighting even if it is his own teammate. The degree might have to be greater (jerking off his helmet and clobbering him with it) but I was just really promoting preventive officiating.

ElvisLives · « **Reply #20 on:** February 01, 2021, 03:31:41 PM »

I am flabbergasted that anyone would think that this conduct is anything that falls under our jurisdiction. As ugly, despicable, and selfish as it may be, it is simply an intra-team issue. Their coaching staff / school administrators need to address this stuff. We stay outta this.
I am certainly with others in decrying this type of behavior. During my high school days, nobody would dare do something like this. The backlash would be swift and certain. But it would be by coaches, administrators, and parents. Officials would not then, and certainly should not - and actually can't - get involved now. We simply have no rule authority to do so. And I, for one, don't want it. I've got enough to do.

DallasLJ · « **Reply #21 on:** February 01, 2021, 03:57:40 PM »

Quote from: ElvisLives on February 01, 2021, 03:31:41 PM

I am flabbergasted that anyone would think that this conduct is anything that falls under our jurisdiction. As ugly, despicable, and selfish as it may be, it is simply an intra-team issue. Their coaching staff / school administrators need to address this stuff. We stay outta this.
I am certainly with others in decrying this type of behavior. During my high school days, nobody would dare do something like this. The backlash would be swift and certain. But it would be by coaches, administrators, and parents. Officials would not then, and certainly should not - and actually can't - get involved now. We simply have no rule authority to do so. And I, for one, don't want it. I've got enough to do.

What he said.

dammitbobby · « **Reply #22 on:** February 01, 2021, 05:19:04 PM »

Quote from: clearwall on February 01, 2021, 07:33:01 AM

I think we have two sides here arguing letter vs spirit of. The rule. By strict definition, do we have a UNS or even fighting here? Yeah, probably but why is this rule in place? It's to prevent young athletic and strong men from getting hot headed and getting into a brawl and injuring their opponent. I agree with those saying we should do nothing here except talk to these guys, remind them that they're on the same side and if needed, send them to their coach for a play to get this worked out. Now, if something like this devolves into something that is a spectacle and is delaying the game, that's a different story. Now you're upsetting the balance of the game for everyone, not just your own team. That's when I'd get a little more stern and think about flashing something but even then, it's a tough deal to award a team that was never offended by anything.

I agree, interpreting letter vs. spirit. But - where's the rule support for sending players off the field to their coach, denying them the opportunity to participate for a down or two? How is that any different than a formalized penalty (in spirit)?

Covid 22 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 02, 2021, 08:16:39 AM »

Let me first make you feel better because I retired this year and you don't have to worry any more about me flagging this type of issue.

But I agree with Bobby. Officials make decisions all the time outside the rule book based on preventive officiating and good sense. You ask a wide out to to let his tackle know that he needs to get out of the NZ. You warn a RB to stop the profanity he is directing at his blockers. How many of you have told a player that next time he doesn't let go of the jersey there will be a flag.

Everything is under the R's jurisdiction and player safety is number 1 no matter what.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #24 on:** February 02, 2021, 08:54:29 AM »

Quote from: Kalle on February 01, 2021, 01:30:03 PM

I guess you mean fighting?

Rule 2-32-1 (emphasis mine): "Fighting is any attempt by a player, coach or squad member in uniform to strike an opponent in a combative manner unrelated to football."

This is interesting. I know this is the NCAA thread, but the NFHS code is worded differently:
2-11: "Fighting is any attempt by a player or nonplayer to strike or engage a player or nonplayer in a combative manner unrelated to football. Such acts include but are not limited to, attempts to strike an opponent(s) with the arms, hands, legs, or feet, whether or not there is contact." This wording seems to leave room for applying fighting to teammates at the High School level.

FTR, I'm in the group that says leave this alone. I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole. If I happened to be close, I might tell them to take that junk to the sideline or something, but I'm not flagging it.