Announcing Numbers

[ElvisLives]

Oh, I don't know...
I kinda like the cheer from the home crowd when I announce a number for the visiting team.     Or even the boos  when I announce a number for the home team.

There is zero - repeat - ZERO harm in announcing player numbers.  And announcing numbers gives the call a solid measure of credibility, as compared to just penalizing a team for a holding foul that only we saw in real time, but no fan/broadcaster saw.  That never goes well.  "Your just making that up.  Your screwin' us."

Robert

[JasonTX]

Oh, I don't know...
I kinda like the cheer from the home crowd when I announce a number for the visiting team.     Or even the boos  when I announce a number for the home team.

There is zero - repeat - ZERO harm in announcing player numbers.  And announcing numbers gives the call a solid measure of credibility, as compared to just penalizing a team for a holding foul that only we saw in real time, but no fan/broadcaster saw.  That never goes well.  "Your just making that up.  Your screwin' us."

Robert

Add a little suspense in the announcement.  Give the signal and then a slight delay on which direction you are pointing.  The boos and cheers seem to be a little more louder.   

My thought on this discussion is that if a player gets tired of hearing his number called he should stop fouling.

[bossman72]

Oh, I don't know...
I kinda like the cheer from the home crowd when I announce a number for the visiting team.     Or even the boos  when I announce a number for the home team.

There is zero - repeat - ZERO harm in announcing player numbers.  And announcing numbers gives the call a solid measure of credibility, as compared to just penalizing a team for a holding foul that only we saw in real time, but no fan/broadcaster saw.  That never goes well.  "Your just making that up.  Your screwin' us."

Robert

You beat me to it.

Definitely adds credibility to our call, especially when it's not out in the open.  Or, for example, if you have OPI for a pick or block down field.  If you just announce OPI, everyone assumes it's a push-off.  If you add the number in there, you can see that we didn't call it on the player who caught the ball.  Cuts down on the rabble-rabble from coaches and fans.

[zebrastripes]

Not exactly. for 50+ years the common practice was NOT TO ANNOUNCE PLAYERS NUMBERS, although as a courtesy, essentially for "coaching assistance" we usually informed the coach of the offending player, for possible remedial action.  There didn't seem to be ANY NECESSITY, that anyone else need be advised of the identity of the  guilty player.

The salient question might be, What has changed?  or Why is it necessary to identify the offending player to the general audience?  Is there a purpose, benefit or logical reason for doing so?

Yes, with the advent of televised games at higher levels, and broadcasters quick to share their opinions, the practice has become common, but the same questions apply, which to my knowledge have yet to be answered, even at those levels much less than being necessary (appropriate) at an Interscholastic level.

Logically, the simple question is, WHY, is it necessary to start doing something, that has not been deemed necessary for the past 75+ years, unless of course their is some rational benefit, or need satisfied, by doing so.  Hopefully, there's a better justification for doing so than, "because the higher levels are doing so (without anyone understanding, WHY)

Why did we switch to black pants from knickers? Why did we go to wider stripes? Why do mechanics evolve and change every year? Why is Massachusetts moving from NCAA to NFHS rules?

Again, I ask: why NOT announce the guilty party when we are already announcing everything else? Are you arguing that we don't need any announcements? You seem unable to answer these questions.

And FYI the reason things at higher levels tend to trickle down to high school is because the powers-that-be realize that it is a BETTER way to do things. That is fine that you don't see the necessity and want to stay in the 70s, but that doesn't mean the majority has to agree with you (and clearly it doesn't).

Logically, there is no reason NOT to announce numbers. "Because we've never done it" isn't logical.

[Ralph Damren]

Oh, I don't know...
I kinda like the cheer from the home crowd when I announce a number for the visiting team.     Or even the boos  when I announce a number for the home team.

There is zero - repeat - ZERO harm in announcing player numbers.  And announcing numbers gives the call a solid measure of credibility, as compared to just penalizing a team for a holding foul that only we saw in real time, but no fan/broadcaster saw.  That never goes well.  "Your just making that up.  Your screwin' us."

Robert

....
.....A helpful hint I received from an ice hockey official is : "If you have penalties on both teams, have the PA announce the home penalty FIRST...that will begin to draw boo's until the visitor's penalty is announced, the fans will then quiet down." I've since tried that on double fouls and it works.

[HLinNC]

 

we usually informed the coach of the offending player, for possible remedial action.

The part that gets me is, I understand when there is a hold that went unnoticed on the far side or a facemask in the pile, but when, oh say, one defender hits the QB and RTP is called why in the world coaches continue to ask "who's it on"?   Or even better- Illegal Sub/Participation for 12 on the field- "What's the number?!"

"The 12th one, Coach, you pick."

[ElvisLives]

....
.....A helpful hint I received from an ice hockey official is : "If you have penalties on both teams, have the PA announce the home penalty FIRST...that will begin to draw boo's until the visitor's penalty is announced, the fans will then quiet down." I've since tried that on double fouls and it works.

I don't disagree, but the down side of that is, in football ( ) sometimes the order of occurrence is important, and it is better, overall, to announce them in their order.  Definitely in the case of live-ball foul followed by dead-ball foul.

Robert

[AlUpstateNY]

Why did we switch to black pants from knickers? Why did we go to wider stripes? Why do mechanics evolve and change every year? Why is Massachusetts moving from NCAA to NFHS rules?

Again, I ask: why NOT announce the guilty party when we are already announcing everything else? Are you arguing that we don't need any announcements? You seem unable to answer these questions.

And FYI the reason things at higher levels tend to trickle down to high school is because the powers-that-be realize that it is a BETTER way to do things. That is fine that you don't see the necessity and want to stay in the 70s, but that doesn't mean the majority has to agree with you (and clearly it doesn't).

Logically, there is no reason NOT to announce numbers. "Because we've never done it" isn't logical.

Absolutely agree, NOT doing something SOLELY, "Because we've never done it" is NOT logical, no more illogical, however, than STARTING solely to do something, "Because we've never done it".  For the past 75+ years we've "announced" relevant penalty details (so those paying attention know EXACTLY what's going on) through official, approved, consistent penalty signals directed to BOTH sidelines.

We switched to black pants for multiple, logical reasons (Maintenance, comfort, practicality) and wider shirt stripes to improve visibility (especially to better identify field officials in front of Team Box areas).  Mechanics evolve primarily because crew sizes expand to keep pace with the game and added experience contributes improved practices.  I can only presume eliminating difficulties and confusion with Interstate games between NCAA and NFHS ruled teams was one reason MA decided adopting the NFHS rules code.

The question REMAINS, what is the beneficial or practical, PURPOSE of announcing the identity of a fouling player, to spectators that would require change?  You might consider, that ONLY those practices that ACTUALLY prove applicable to the NFHS (Interscholastic) level, that "trickle down" after serious consideration and review, are adopted for NFHS contests WHEN they are SPECIFICALLY determined to be "a BETTER way to do things" AT/FOR NFHS contests.

Actually, the 1970s are long gone, but I DON'T SEE any significant benefit or necessity for this change, and you have yet to provide any relevant or convincing reason to persuade doing so.  Of course if you personally prefer to do so, I'm not aware of any official prohibition preventing YOU from choosing to doing so.

[ElvisLives]

Add a little suspense in the announcement.  Give the signal and then a slight delay on which direction you are pointing.  The boos and cheers seem to be a little more louder.   

Yeah.  That is something Walt Anderson preached in clinics.  Say the Foul - pause - say the Number - pause (let the suspense build) - then say the team, and hear the crowd go wild with delight or nuts with disgust.  Just the facts, ma'am.

Robert

[ElvisLives]

Why announce player numbers?  Inquiring minds want to know (the numbers). 

Granted, many of those minds are watching on TV, and only a small percentage of the sum total of all American football games are televised.  But, it harms no one to give the number, and it is prescribed in the officiating manuals for NCAA football, and for UIL (Texas) football (and, I suppose, the NFL). 

Those that may get offended that the player's number is announced just need to get over it.  It is here to stay.

Robert

[zebrastripes]

Those that may get offended that the player's number is announced just need to get over it.  It is here to stay.

Robert

Amen.

I will say it again. There will be people who say "you can't compare sports" or "I don't care what basketball does," but it is relevant here. No one bats an eye when a basketball player fouls and has his (1) number, (2) name, and (3) number of fouls announced (even on technical fouls) to the crowd. Why is it that football people want to get offended about having only one of those three things announced?

Officials that are anti-announcing numbers, I would say: do you wish to avoid announcing the number because you don't know who fouled?

[zebrastripes]

Absolutely agree, NOT doing something SOLELY, "Because we've never done it" is NOT logical, no more illogical, however, than STARTING solely to do something, "Because we've never done it".  For the past 75+ years we've "announced" relevant penalty details (so those paying attention know EXACTLY what's going on) through official, approved, consistent penalty signals directed to BOTH sidelines.

We switched to black pants for multiple, logical reasons (Maintenance, comfort, practicality) and wider shirt stripes to improve visibility (especially to better identify field officials in front of Team Box areas).  Mechanics evolve primarily because crew sizes expand to keep pace with the game and added experience contributes improved practices.  I can only presume eliminating difficulties and confusion with Interstate games between NCAA and NFHS ruled teams was one reason MA decided adopting the NFHS rules code.

The question REMAINS, what is the beneficial or practical, PURPOSE of announcing the identity of a fouling player, to spectators that would require change?  You might consider, that ONLY those practices that ACTUALLY prove applicable to the NFHS (Interscholastic) level, that "trickle down" after serious consideration and review, are adopted for NFHS contests WHEN they are SPECIFICALLY determined to be "a BETTER way to do things" AT/FOR NFHS contests.

Actually, the 1970s are long gone, but I DON'T SEE any significant benefit or necessity for this change, and you have yet to provide any relevant or convincing reason to persuade doing so.  Of course if you personally prefer to do so, I'm not aware of any official prohibition preventing YOU from choosing to doing so.

That is great that you don't see a rationale, but it is clear by this thread that the majority of officials do. Your rambling and opining about how NFHS rules are for "interscholastic" play are irrelevant to this issue.

"Spectators don't need to know what the foul is. If they see us walking off the yardage that should be enough for them." That is your logic.

I'm still looking for you to answer the question, why wouldn't we announce the number when we are already announcing everything else?

[bossman72]

Yeah.  That is something Walt Anderson preached in clinics.  Say the Foul - pause - say the Number - pause (let the suspense build) - then say the team, and hear the crowd go wild with delight or nuts with disgust.  Just the facts, ma'am.

Robert

This is why I like to not give a preliminary signal.  Once you point toward a team, all the suspense is gone and people don't pay attention to your real announcement.

[AlUpstateNY]

That is great that you don't see a rationale, but it is clear by this thread that the majority of officials do. Your rambling and opining about how NFHS rules are for "interscholastic" play are irrelevant to this issue.

"Spectators don't need to know what the foul is. If they see us walking off the yardage that should be enough for them." That is your logic.

I'm still looking for you to answer the question, why wouldn't we announce the number when we are already announcing everything else?

I wouldn't conclude ANYTHING IS CLEAR to "the majority of officials by this thread".  The QUESTION remains, Why (what logical, practical reason) is there any need (benefit, purpose) to add "identifying announcements" to the long established policies of signaling penalty details (which you have yet to suggest, other than NCAA & NFL do).

My "logic" is simply the current signaling procedures provide all the details necessary for a spectator to clearly understand what is happening, regarding a penalty application.  If you have a rational reason, please share it.

[scrounge]

I wouldn't conclude ANYTHING IS CLEAR to "the majority of officials by this thread".  The QUESTION remains, Why (what logical, practical reason) is there any need (benefit, purpose) to add "identifying announcements" to the long established policies of signaling penalty details (which you have yet to suggest, other than NCAA & NFL do).

My "logic" is simply the current signaling procedures provide all the details necessary for a spectator to clearly understand what is happening, regarding a penalty application.  If you have a rational reason, please share it.

Because we all feel like it  Why don't you give a compelling reason why not?

[bama_stripes]

Must be getting cold in upstate NY.....

[bossman72]

I wouldn't conclude ANYTHING IS CLEAR to "the majority of officials by this thread".  The QUESTION remains, Why (what logical, practical reason) is there any need (benefit, purpose) to add "identifying announcements" to the long established policies of signaling penalty details (which you have yet to suggest, other than NCAA & NFL do).

My "logic" is simply the current signaling procedures provide all the details necessary for a spectator to clearly understand what is happening, regarding a penalty application.  If you have a rational reason, please share it.

A few of us already have in this thread...

[AlUpstateNY]

A few of us already have in this thread...

Sorry if I've missed them, but if you're suggesting changing something that's worked fine, for 75+years up through and including today, I would hope you can come up with something more relevant than "the big guys are doing it" as a reason for a universal mechanics change.

Of course if you want permission to implement the change personally, I don't see anything, anywhere prohibiting YOU from doing so, knock yourself out if it makes you feel better.

[scrounge]

Sorry if I've missed them, but if you're suggesting changing something that's worked fine, for 75+years up through and including today, I would hope you can come up with something more relevant than "the big guys are doing it" as a reason for a universal mechanics change.

Of course if you want permission to implement the change personally, I don't see anything, anywhere prohibiting YOU from doing so, knock yourself out if it makes you feel better.

And I would hope you can come up with something more relevant than "that's the way we've always done it". Again, what is the compelling reason not to do so?

[AlUpstateNY]

And I would hope you can come up with something more relevant than "that's the way we've always done it". Again, what is the compelling reason not to do so?

Compelling reason Number 1: You seem unable/unwilling to suggest ANY reason (compelling or otherwise)  that changing the current protocol provides any meaningful benefit, is somehow necessary or makes sense.

[bossman72]

Sorry if I've missed them, but if you're suggesting changing something that's worked fine, for 75+years up through and including today, I would hope you can come up with something more relevant than "the big guys are doing it" as a reason for a universal mechanics change.

Again, both ElvisLives and I gave good reasons earlier, which you have not addressed (selectively ignored).  Neither of us mentioned NCAA/NFL.

[AlUpstateNY]

Again, both ElvisLives and I gave good reasons earlier, which you have not addressed (selectively ignored).  Neither of us mentioned NCAA/NFL.

Excuse me "bossman72". the suggestions you reference (" Once you point toward a team, all the suspense is gone and people don't pay attention to your real announcement"), ("it harms no one to give the number, and it is prescribed in the officiating manuals for NCAA football, and for UIL (Texas) football (and, I suppose, the NFL").  ("That is something Walt Anderson ( a respected NFL official) preached in clinics".) ("Say the Foul - pause - say the Number - pause (let the suspense build. ("Granted, many of those minds are watching on TV, and only a small percentage of the sum total of all American football games are televised.  But, it harms no one to give the number, and it is prescribed in the officiating manuals for NCAA football, and for UIL (Texas) football (and, I suppose, the NFL), seem to reference that the practice is appropriate for NCAA and/or NFL, and should therefore "trickle down" to NFHS (which sometimes makes sense, but in many other instances DOES NOT.

As for, "Definitely adds credibility to our call, especially when it's not out in the open." I would respectfully suggest that spectators (or even Coaches) who "require" or demand "a number" to confirm credibility, are not worthy of special consideration or appeasement. 

As previously suggested, if this is something you find it appropriate or helpful to do, there doesn't seem to be any prohibition preventing you, personally, from doing it - but suggesting, " but, it is clear by this thread that the majority of officials do" sounds more like "wishful thinking". Should you have some practically demonstrable reasons for doing so, I'd be happy to seriously consider your suggestions.

[Grant - AR]

I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but could it be that numbers were never announced in the past in high school football because the referee didn't have a microphone?  When there is no microphone, all you have is signals so there's no need to announce a number...except for the lip readers in the audience.  I'm not old enough to remember, but did referees announce numbers in NCAA or NFL before they had microphones?  Now that referees have microphones in many, many high school games, maybe announcing numbers is something that needs to be changed.

[bossman72]

I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but could it be that numbers were never announced in the past in high school football because the referee didn't have a microphone?  When there is no microphone, all you have is signals so there's no need to announce a number...except for the lip readers in the audience.  I'm not old enough to remember, but did referees announce numbers in NCAA or NFL before they had microphones?  Now that referees have microphones in many, many high school games, maybe announcing numbers is something that needs to be changed.

NCAA started announcing numbers around 2005.

[TampaSteve]

For the perception that football is a sport for the "toughest" athletes, having one's number announced over the PA is certainly a pathetic thing to get embarrassed about. Either the kids need thicker skin or the AD is enabling fragile egos. If my kid complained to me about the R announcing his number, I'd laugh and tell him to get over it.

Again, in basketball the PA announcer generally states the fouling player's number AND name and there are never any issues. Makes no sense why in high school football we have to be concerned about "embarrassing" these supposedly tough kids.

To preface, I dont care if they announce the numbers or not.
The points are fine points, however, announcing numbers is critical to having 5 fouls (scorekeeping) for BB vs football where there is no limit (sans USC)