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Football Officiating => General Discussion => Topic started by: blandis on November 16, 2014, 01:23:42 AM

Title: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: blandis on November 16, 2014, 01:23:42 AM
   Having a bit of an issue (OK, I'm fuming a bit at people who don't know the rules) with officials and time keepers that don't understand when to start and stop the clock. We all have nightmare stories like the A.D.'s sister insisting that she knows how to run the clock and doing an abomination of a job. But this has to do with with when do you start the clock on a Field Goal after a incomplete pass or play out of bounds under all sets of rules.
   When does the clock start in this scenario? When the ball is touched by the holder. The ball is then kicked less than half-a-second after being touched by the holder allowing time to elapse 2-4 seconds as the ball travels the distance passing over the crossbar and in-between the uprights. So when do you stop the clock?
   There are two aspects that apply. A ball is dead and the clock stops when: 1) it touches out of bounds or an object out of bounds; or 2) when a score occurs. When does the Field Goal score occur? When the ball passes completely through the goal (that's completely over the cross bar and completely through the uprights just like in hockey or soccer that a puck or ball must pass completely over the goal line) is when you stop the clock.
   So if a kick is not good and is wide the clock keeps going until it touches out of bounds. If a kick is good the clock stops as soon as the ball passes through the goal. In some cases on very short kicks (20-35 yards) only 2 or 3 seconds may go off the clock. 4, or maybe even 5 seconds may go off the clock on really long kicks (45-60 yards).
   
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: mishatx on November 16, 2014, 10:54:18 AM
The clock starts on the snap, and stops on the official's signal.
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: Kalle on November 16, 2014, 11:23:29 AM
In NCAA technically on successful field goals the clock should stop only after it is impossible for the ball to be blown back through the uprights. In practice I think most covering officials signal when it hits something beyond the uprights.
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: blandis on November 16, 2014, 12:51:25 PM
Why would you take points off the board if the ball "blows back" through the uprights?
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: blandis on November 16, 2014, 12:57:21 PM
When is a snap legal?
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: HLinNC on November 16, 2014, 01:04:44 PM
Are you a official?  I am assuming not if you think an official doesn't know when to start and stop a clock.

You've already quoted some rules.  How do not know when a snap is legal?
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 16, 2014, 01:05:13 PM
   But this has to do with with when do you start the clock on a Field Goal after a incomplete pass or play out of bounds under all sets of rules. 

You've already received practical answers relating to Field Goals.  Allow me to address your other questions;  regarding a pass being complete or incomplete;  The clock is stopped when a forward pass is SEEN to hit the ground, or when an official signals the pass is incomplete.  It's important to understand that along either/both sidelines, especially in the vicinity of the team bench, it can be far more difficult to actually see either, which is why it is so important for game officials in the field to pick up and repeat the wing officials signals whenever possible.

You might consider as well, that although the incomplete pass signal clearly includes the fact that the clock should stop, signals given below the shoulders are far less likely to be seen and adding a "stop the clock" signal, to the "incomplete pass signal, although redundant, can be very helpful in conveying the appropriate message in a timely fashion.

Most officials, relating to a runner's interaction with a sideline, will give a "winding" signal when the run ends, inbounds, close to a sideline and a "stop the clock" signal when the play ends because the runner has breached the sideline.  Most, also give a combination of both signals when the run ends, in the field of play, but achieves a 1st down, which would, separately cause the clock to stop. 

It's a good idea to consider that the primary recipient of such signals are designed to be the clock operators, and with ANY signal, clarity of the message and the receipt of the intended party, is the objective. 
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: Kalle on November 16, 2014, 01:11:46 PM
Why would you take points off the board if the ball "blows back" through the uprights?

Because it is not a score. See rule 8-4-1-b.
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: ECILLJ on November 17, 2014, 09:27:34 AM
  If a kick is good the clock stops as soon as the ball passes through the goal. I

The point you are trying to make is unclear.

 Technically in NFHS, the clock should stop on a scrimmage kick when the ball breaks the plane of the goal line. Realistically, the clock stops when the officials signal touchback, dead ball, field goal, or field goal missed.
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: BankerRef on November 17, 2014, 10:33:09 AM
In NCAA technically on successful field goals the clock should stop only after it is impossible for the ball to be blown back through the uprights.

I have never seen this happen and never heard of it happening.  If it is really high and coming straight down toward the crossbar I think we will wait until it hits, otherwise you are pretty safe to signal when it goes through.
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: Wingmanbp on November 17, 2014, 11:40:09 AM
I have never seen this happen and never heard of it happening.  If it is really high and coming straight down toward the crossbar I think we will wait until it hits, otherwise you are pretty safe to signal when it goes through.
I saw it almost happen in a playoff game. There was a 35 MPH south wind blowing into kickers face. It was from 27 yards out and it crossed in the high 2/3 of the upright but the ball blew back and hit the bottom of the crossbar just enough to stay good. Another inch or two higher and it would have been no good.
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: walkintall on November 18, 2014, 02:24:55 PM
1983 Immaculate deflection in the Egg Bowl. Doesn't cross through the uprights before falling, but a lower kick might have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jR8hMnJusQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jR8hMnJusQ)
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: Ralph Damren on November 19, 2014, 11:19:29 AM
I have never seen this happen and never heard of it happening.  If it is really high and coming straight down toward the crossbar I think we will wait until it hits, otherwise you are pretty safe to signal when it goes through.
If an earthquake occurs while the field goal attempt is airborne and the goal posts either are relocated or collapse, the referee (assuming he survived unscathed) could apply Rule 1-1-6 and rule on the kick as to where the goal post used to stand. In event that said event has rendered the field unplayable, he could apply Rules 3-1-4 & 5. 
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: VALJ on November 19, 2014, 12:06:03 PM
I think I'd treat it as an IW and replay the kick.   :sTiR:
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: Wingmanbp on November 19, 2014, 12:37:48 PM
I think I'd treat it as an IW and replay the kick.   :sTiR:
Well what if the ground swallowed up both goal posts?  >:D ;D
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: clearwall on November 19, 2014, 12:53:46 PM
Then everyone is likely dead and we have other issues.  pi1eOn
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: Wingmanbp on November 19, 2014, 02:12:19 PM
Then everyone is likely dead and we have other issues.  pi1eOn
Yeah I don't think the field goal would matter anymore  ;D
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: Ralph Damren on November 20, 2014, 06:32:28 AM
Some other improbable events to consider :

   (1) Meteorite lands at midfield....
      (a) before the ball is snapped;
      (b) during a loose ball play;
      (c) during a running play;

   (2) Lava flow engulfs entire endzone and snack shack....
      (a) During the first half;
      (b) During halftime;
      (c) During second half.
         Concerns: What to do with the unsold food, what if the goal post melted ??? ???

   (3) Alien spacecraft lands in visitor's team box....
      (a) Promptly abducts the entire chain crew;
      (b) Devours entire contents of kelp shed;
      (c) Turn head coach into a pinball machine.

           :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:

As you can see, guys, we have plenty of things to ponder :o ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :bOW :!#.......cheer up, the proposed changes will soon give us something to debate! :)
 
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: clearwall on November 20, 2014, 09:14:45 AM
2a, b, c: Umpire is gone for the rest of the game. Find him a quiet corner of the locker room in which to cry about his loss.

3a, employ the aliens as replacement(as long as they are over the age of 12)
3b, what the heck is a kelp shed?
3c, legal play...improvement actually.
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: Ralph Damren on November 20, 2014, 09:39:19 AM
Very good, Clearwall, you should be awarded the Kewpie Doll - or something there such. Minor suggested revisions : (2) The demise of  sNiCkErS the snack shack may direct the sNiCkErS umpire's appetite toward the kelp shed.
3a- while having a chain crew made up entirely of beings from another planet/solar system may be a novelty to those that dared to remain, a concern would be if earthlings would appear as tasty morsels after the kelp shed was devoured.
3b- a kelp shed is where seafaring fishermen keep their bait when they aren't seafaring. Looks like a tool shed, smells like a.....well, you get the picture... yEs:
3c- if the visitor's interplanetary powers turned the coach into a pinball machine, anytime he "tilted" should be considered an USC foul.
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: Osric Pureheart on November 21, 2014, 04:13:52 AM
Different sport, but here is a kick going between the posts and over the bar, and then being blown back.  (Their rule is different.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnCTqhVYbBs

I'm no longer quite so sneery about things that obviously won't happen after I worked a game on a field with a wind so strong that on Team A's first punt of the game from about their 20, the Giant Hand seized the ball in mid-air and threw it backwards so hard from the line of scrimmage that it bounced once at A's 2 and then the next bounce was about five yards behind the end line.
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: bama_stripes on November 21, 2014, 07:38:10 AM
Got a good laugh out of that one.  Not by the kick blowing back, but by the position of the holder!    cRaZy
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: Curious on November 21, 2014, 12:42:10 PM
Why would you take points off the board if the ball "blows back" through the uprights?

Because it is not a score. See rule 8-4-1-b.


Kalle, I must assume you're referring to NCAA rules.  Under NFHS rules, this would be a successful FG.  (Case Book 8.4.1Ab; Rule 8-4-1c).
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: Kalle on November 21, 2014, 01:09:17 PM
Kalle, I must assume you're referring to NCAA rules.  Under NFHS rules, this would be a successful FG.  (Case Book 8.4.1Ab; Rule 8-4-1c).

Yes, as you can see from my post and guess from the rule reference :)
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: pommylee on October 12, 2018, 05:43:13 AM
Some other improbable events to consider :


   (3) Alien spacecraft lands in visitor's team box....
      (a) Promptly abducts the entire chain crew;
      (b) Devours entire contents of kelp shed;
      (c) Turn head coach into a pinball machine.

           :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:

As you can see, guys, we have plenty of things to ponder :o ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :bOW :!#.......cheer up, the proposed changes will soon give us something to debate! :)



You are being deliberately silly with the Aliens option of course, but in fact not as silly as you think.  If you were an alien coming to earth and decided you wanted to announce your arrival to the whole planet and not just meet up with the worlds leaders, after spending some time studying our world from outer space, you would most likely choose the SuperBowl or World Cup Final, maybe Champions League Final as the best place to announce your arrival to the most people on the planet at once as possible.  So don't discount this possibility 100%, just 99.9999999%

having said that, if this happens I want to be given full credit by everyone for predicting this
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: Etref on October 12, 2018, 08:24:39 AM


You are being deliberately silly with the Aliens option of course, but in fact not as silly as you think.  If you were an alien coming to earth and decided you wanted to announce your arrival to the whole planet and not just meet up with the worlds leaders, after spending some time studying our world from outer space, you would most likely choose the SuperBowl or World Cup Final, maybe Champions League Final as the best place to announce your arrival to the most people on the planet at once as possible.  So don't discount this possibility 100%, just 99.9999999%

having said that, if this happens I want to be given full credit by everyone for predicting this


You mean as opposed to the times they only landed near a hog farm in Arkansas with Myrtle and Jethro as witnesses!  😩
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: Ralph Damren on October 12, 2018, 10:55:18 AM
Welcome to the forum, Pommylee, I hope you find it both enjoyable and informative. I posted that after last year's season had ended for most and were waiting for the proposed changes. We sometimes get off track  :o ::) when there's no plays to argue about!
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: Grant - AR on October 13, 2018, 08:26:37 PM


You are being deliberately silly with the Aliens option of course, but in fact not as silly as you think.  If you were an alien coming to earth and decided you wanted to announce your arrival to the whole planet and not just meet up with the worlds leaders, after spending some time studying our world from outer space, you would most likely choose the SuperBowl or World Cup Final, maybe Champions League Final as the best place to announce your arrival to the most people on the planet at once as possible.  So don't discount this possibility 100%, just 99.9999999%

having said that, if this happens I want to be given full credit by everyone for predicting this

 LOL
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: bbeagle on October 15, 2018, 12:57:12 PM
Well what if the ground swallowed up both goal posts?  >:D ;D

Well, we have an illegal field. I'd have to report it to the proper administrators.
Title: Re: Timing on Field Goals on a Stopped Clock (When to Start and Stop)
Post by: Ralph Damren on October 16, 2018, 12:01:22 PM
 LOL
Now back to the original topic....We've probably all seen highlight reels of free kicking for a field goal after a fair catch. These usually occur very near the end of half or game. In at least two, the clock has started with the kick...remember, gang, the clock shouldn't start until legally touch, just as with any other free kicks. DON'T blow your bucket-list achievement by cranking the clock on the kick :o ??? :-[...