RefStripes.com
Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: TXMike on March 07, 2016, 01:24:39 PM
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Is this jersey legal under NFHS rules? (Attached)
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1-5-1c(4) : "the body of the number shall be.....the same solid color(s) as the jersey with a minimum of one border that is at least 1/4 inch in with of a single solid CONTRASTING color." Looks like it meets NFHS specs unless inches are bigger in Texas! :)
MAINE INCH =_____
TEXAS INCH = ________________________
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? 8]
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I disagree with my esteemed friend from Maine. While he is correct about the 1/4" contrast, the numbers are not the same solid color as the jersey, nor a continuous color that contrasts with the jersey (1-5-c-4-a,b).
The numbers have a pattern, which is not legal.
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I disagree with my esteemed friend from Maine. While he is correct about the 1/4" contrast, the numbers are not the same solid color as the jersey, nor a continuous color that contrasts with the jersey (1-5-c-4-a,b).
The numbers have a pattern, which is not legal.
You have to click on the picture to enlarge it. Until you do you can't really tell that the numbers have a pattern in them.
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1 inch in Maine is the equivalent of .0000345 of an inch in Texas. Source: Stephen F. Austin Guide to Measurement Conversion, circa 1836.
But the jersey...talk about major difference...
Apparently in Fed the contract has to be in the border while in NCAA the contrast has to be in the body of the number without even considering the contrast of the border
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I disagree with my esteemed friend from Maine. While he is correct about the 1/4" contrast, the numbers are not the same solid color as the jersey, nor a continuous color that contrasts with the jersey (1-5-c-4-a,b).
The numbers have a pattern, which is not legal.
I agree with Coach Joe - Illegal as per 1-5-1c(4)a,b
The body of the numbers are not continuous nor are they solid.
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Do you think it is complying with the intent of the rule? Is it giving the wearing team a competitive advantage?
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Do you think it is complying with the intent of the rule? Is it giving the wearing team a competitive advantage?
Agree you can't determine the legality without blowing up the picture. By the strictest definition of the rule: not legal.
Competitive advantage? No.
Complying with the intent of the rule? As the Eagles used to sing "Take it to the limit one more time." Isn't that what football coaches are paid to do?
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If they have other jerseys that contrast with the opposing team's, make them change. If not, play the game, and tell your commissioner/assigner, so they can notify the state.
"Coach, with those jerseys you're wearing, we could have some trouble getting numbers for you. We'll do the best we can, though."
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Do you think it is complying with the intent of the rule? Is it giving the wearing team a competitive advantage?
A competitive advantage based on the pattern in the numbers? No.
But it makes it hell for the statisticians!
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HUH????? How can the number be harder to see like this than if it had the same border and just had the jersey color inside the border? Wouldn't that be just as difficult?
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HUH????? How can the number be harder to see like this than if it had the same border and just had the jersey color inside the border?
Believe it or not, yes. From the press box, a solid number is easier to see than one with a pattern. I'll admit, I hate numbers the same color as a jersey, as the 1/4" border is not enough to make it easy. But adding a pattern to the number makes it even worse.
I would love to see the NFHS make the numbers be a distinct, contrasting color to the jersey, as does the NCAA. But until someone from the press box gets a number of votes on the rules committee, I can't see it being high on the agenda.
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From the picture, it doesn't look too bad - and at least the number itself is "legal".
I was reviewing a Hudl video from earlier this season during which a player was wearing "00". He wore it all year (our crew never saw this team); but nobody seems to have corrected the situation. (I even wrote the assigner for the League) ??? hEaDbAnG :!#
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1-5-1c(4) : "the body of the number shall be.....the same solid color(s) as the jersey with a minimum of one border that is at least 1/4 inch in with of a single solid CONTRASTING color."
I am going to go out on a limb here and say that this rule is really not enforced in NFHS games... I found this collection of HS uniforms, none of which seem to fit this specification http://www.maxpreps.com/news/EkEj8YO_y0yss4iHqTpBsw/ten-unique-high-school-football-uniforms.htm
and this http://www.complex.com/sneakers/2012/09/the-25-best-high-school-football-uniforms
and this http://www.coloradoan.com/story/sports/high-school/football/2015/11/04/football-jersey-rankings/75166122/
Does anyone know why the rule says the number should be the same color as the jersey?
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I didn't realize you could enlarge things until you guys told me I could tiphat:.
Once I did that ,I did realize that the jersey was illegal tiphat:.
I realize I owe all of you an apology for not knowing this earlier. tiphat:
TXMike - you should change the word "should" to "could" as that would be only one alternative.
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I am going to go out on a limb here and say that this rule is really not enforced in NFHS games... I found this collection of HS uniforms, none of which seem to fit this specification http://www.maxpreps.com/news/EkEj8YO_y0yss4iHqTpBsw/ten-unique-high-school-football-uniforms.htm
Went through this batch. About 2/3 of those uniforms are illegal.
I used to be head of research for the company that owned Russell Athletic. At the time, we were the largest supplier of high school football uniforms in the country. When the uniform rules were being changed in the early 2000's, we went to meet with the NFHS and had the original rule changes "adapted". As a whole, the rule changes were known in the industry as the "Miami Rule", based on the hideous things being worn by the University of Miami, pushed by Nike.
Many of these new "camo" type designs would not have even been possible under old manufacturing techniques. They are now possible because of "sublimated printing", a process of dying the fabric which is very similar to a giant ink jet printer. But just because something CAN be done, doesn't mean it SHOULD.
The current NFHS rule on numbers says:
The body of the number shall be either
a) a continuous color(s) contrasting with the jersey color, or
b) the same solid color(s) as the jersey with a minimum of one border that is at least 1/4-inch in width of a single solid contrasting color.
I think they should just drop the b) option, and the number issue would be fixed.
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Do you think it is complying with the intent of the rule? Is it giving the wearing team a competitive advantage?
It's tough for us to see the numbers.
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The current NFHS rule on numbers says:
The body of the number shall be either
a) a continuous color(s) contrasting with the jersey color, or
b) the same solid color(s) as the jersey with a minimum of one border that is at least 1/4-inch in width of a single solid contrasting color.
I think they should just drop the b) option, and the number issue would be fixed.
Thanks for the clarification on the rule. The way it was written originally above led me to believe it had to be a color that matched the jersey.
I guess we will have to employ the Steve Shaw test for visibility.... http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jon-solomon/25060943/college-football-rules-face-looming-technology-question
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Unfortunately, One of mankind's most consistent, and dumbest habits is insisting on tinkering with things that are going along really well, with dopey, immaterial adjustments, until they ultimately screw up and/or ruin what they were previously so happy with.
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is this one legal?
(http://media.hometeamsonline.com/photos/football/TOKAYFOOTBALL/Jersey_Numbers_Tiger_Stripes.png)
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is this one legal?
(http://media.hometeamsonline.com/photos/football/TOKAYFOOTBALL/Jersey_Numbers_Tiger_Stripes.png)
No.
Is it a solid color same as the jersey? No.
Is it a continuous color? No.
Illegal.
Am I stopping a game for it? Not a chance, but it should be reported to the state.
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Thanks AB, that was my understanding as well.
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We have a school up hear in the Portland Area (I'm sure they are not the first) but they have written in there Uniform Supplier Contract that if for any reason the jerseys, pant, or other products are found to be non-compliant with current NFHS Rules as of the date they are manufactured, the Uniform supplier shall reimburse the school the entire amount of the purchase plus an additional 25% penalty.
I would think if every school were to follow suit it would put a damper on these snake oil salesman.
aBdUcT
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We have a school up hear in the Portland Area (I'm sure they are not the first) but they have written in there Uniform Supplier Contract that if for any reason the jerseys, pant, or other products are found to be non-compliant with current NFHS Rules as of the date they are manufactured, the Uniform supplier shall reimburse the school the entire amount of the purchase plus an additional 25% penalty.
I would think if every school were to follow suit it would put a damper on these snake oil salesman.
aBdUcT
When I was at Russell Athletic, in all our contracts, we guaranteed our uniforms met the rules at the time of manufacture. No 25% penalty, we would simply have to replace them. We never replaced one under this clause. If you wanted a design that we did not think was legal, you had a sign a waiver saying it was your design, not ours, and we weren't liable.
But it is also why we, along with the reputable manufacturers, worked with the NFHS on uniform rules. I'm afraid to say, Kevin, that one of your large corporate neighbors did not usually attend those meetings, and felt they were big enough to "adjust" the rules.
Now, anyone with access to a fabric manufacturer that has sublimation printing (a glorified ink jet printer) can create these monstrosities.
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I reviewed a "proof" for a school considering a uni change. The company supplying the proof had this phrase:
By approving this mock-up you are approving all aspects of the design. You are acknowledging it meets with NFHS or NCAA uniform requirements.
So I guess some manufacturers want the school to bear some responsibility also.
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Just some? ;)
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I reviewed a "proof" for a school considering a uni change.
I thought you used NCAA rules anyway. Under NCAA rules, this is clearly illegal.
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Now, anyone with access to a fabric manufacturer that has sublimation printing (a glorified ink jet printer) can create these monstrosities.
And my lord are they ugly.
(https://cdn1.lockerdome.com/uploads/5925074019553042_e5338a497f7a84082e781402033aa61a733dede25bf9669e871624af09034c25_large)
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And my lord are they ugly.
Someone should have just been sent home for that.
These are now showing up in HS baseball as well. Local school has a "Camouflage" design, except that it's in shades of blue, black and white. Where are they hiding, on the ocean floor?
(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/northwestgeorgianews.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/b/fe/bfe19380-d66b-11e3-b9ac-0017a43b2370/536b0d52ba492.image.jpg?resize=300%2C194)
And as bad as they look on the kids, they are REALLY bad on the 60 year old overweight pitching coach!
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These are GREAT....for a Grateful Dead concert. The use of camo is to blend in with the surroundings not to worn by the star QB / pitcher /point guard, etc. If one wants to look like a bush, go play in the leaves not on a sports team.
So much for Friday's rant...next comes the clam broth martini, have a good weekend,all eAt&.
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Some responsibility?
One could argue that statement places all the burden of responsibility on the buyer!
Buyer beware? I don't think so.
One could argue that the manufacturer, by making such a misleading statement, is fully aware there product is not in compliance with the rules. Further, that the manufacturer is clearly attempting to sell non-compliant equipment and clearly attempting to sell a non-compliant product using the age old buyer beware method.
The only thing signing something like that foolish from a manufacturer would prove is that the purchaser did not read the fine print! As, if they had, they should have handed it back to the salesman.
NFHS Rule 1 - For the most part, is not there primarily for officials, rather,
NFHS Rule 1 is in place for manufacturer's to read and to assure there products are in compliance with the rules.
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When I was at Russell Athletic, in all our contracts, we guaranteed our uniforms met the rules at the time of manufacture. No 25% penalty, we would simply have to replace them. We never replaced one under this clause. If you wanted a design that we did not think was legal, you had a sign a waiver saying it was your design, not ours, and we weren't liable.
But it is also why we, along with the reputable manufacturers, worked with the NFHS on uniform rules. I'm afraid to say, Kevin, that one of your large corporate neighbors did not usually attend those meetings, and felt they were big enough to "adjust" the rules.
Now, anyone with access to a fabric manufacturer that has sublimation printing (a glorified ink jet printer) can create these monstrosities.
I believe the reason behind the necessity of the schools adding the wording to their contract is due in part to our large corporate neighbor.
The Russell Athletic wording/policies makes good sense for all involved!
Must be why my Washington State Cougars use Russell Athletic? FlAg1
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One could argue that the manufacturer, by making such a misleading statement, is fully aware there product is not in compliance with the rules.
The same could be said for these sporting goods retailers who are still selling tinted visors and having momma and daddy believe they are legal.
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Must be why my Washington State Cougars use Russell Athletic?
They were one of our last schools. Russell used to be a major player in the college business. Then the prices you had to pay the big teams went through the roof. Auburn had been a Russell school since the beginning of time (the Russell factory was 40 miles up the road). When the contract came up for renewal, knowing prices were going up, we offered 3 times what we had been paying. Under Armour came in and offered 10 times what we had been paying. That started happening at all the big schools, so Russell basically got out of the D1 business.
I was talking to the equipment manager for West Virginia (which had been a Russell school at one time). Nike got the new contract. But the equipment manager still bought Russell for all of their practice gear. "It holds up better" is what he told me. I left shortly after the company was sold (2004), and it was a good time to get out. Even Russell quality has gone to hell, and they don't stand behind their uniforms like they used to. At the time I left, Russell was still the leading supplier to high schools. I doubt that's true anymore.
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I toured the plant back I the late 80's when I worked at Sam Wyche Sports World. Ever hear of a sales rep named John Cork?
I still have plain Russell gym shorts I bought in the 90's for sleep. They're a little short for the 21st Century and they have no pockets, which I like. I think I got rid of my last Russell crew neck sweatshirt from the 80's about 5 years ago. It held up fine but it finally "shrunk" too much. I also have my old HS basketball hoodie from my senior year. It doesn't fit but I can't part with it.
Russell made good $#!zzle.
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I toured the plant back I the late 80's when I worked at Sam Wyche Sports World. Ever hear of a sales rep named John Cork?
I did. I can't say I remember ever meeting him, but I do recall the name.
Russell made good $#!zzle.
They did. The Russell Hoodie was a classic, both decorated and plain. And the uniforms held up to a lot of wear and tear, a great value, which is why they were the leader in high school sports for so long.
But the new owners think the best way to make money is to reduce costs, and the quality has declined significantly. Too bad.
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The same could be said for these sporting goods retailers who are still selling tinted visors and having momma and daddy believe they are legal.
You mean the visors that have "APPROVED" printed on the box?
They are generally located close to the "APPROVED" 3/4 inch screw in shoe cleats!
Somebody in our association had a mom show him the box! hEaDbAnG
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There is that, in life, we may control and that, which we have NO control over. The football gods have decided our's is the responsibility to observe, and report improper (silly, stupid & ugly) uniforms up the chain of command, and then return our focus to that which actually matters.
Removing officials from any interpretive responsibilities as "fashion police" has been a blessing. an example is the NFHS procedure for handling "uniform adornments", (NFHS 1-5-3-a5) if it isn't "a moisture-absorbing solid color towel..... or a wrist worn moisture-absorbing sweatband.... it's ILLEGAL, and simply cannot be worn during play. No arguments, no discussions, no artistic preferences, either it "IS" or it ISN'T(like being pregnant).
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Oregon has a lot of rain!
Before artificial turf fields, there were (some still remain) mud bogs which had lines, goal posts and covered grandstands for the home team for which we played football.
For a long time, Oregon had a rampant problem with illegal cleats. So much so, the OSAA modified NFHS rule regarding illegal cleats. In addition to a UNS issued to the head coach, the student is disqualified.
I have personally only invoked the rule once. It was in a JV game when a player who's hand was bleeding like a stuck pig ask me to check opponent number 71's cleats. To my amazement, Number 71 was wearing baseball cleats with a design which appeared close enough to the multiple cuts on the player's hand.
USC on the head coach and number 71 was DSQ.
(We felt our actions met the spirit and intent of the rule!) Fashion Police? Nah!
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Kudos to KWH for finding a way to get injury causing cleats into a discussion on illegal jerseys!
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Kudos to KWH for finding a way to get injury causing cleats into a discussion on illegal jerseys!
It was merely intended as an example of why we are "The Fashion Police!"
Illegal cleats would be an example of something we need to deal with.
Sorry if you feel I drifted off topic.
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aBdUcT
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Big difference in BB spikes and 3/4" screw in replacement cleats.
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It was merely intended as an example of why we are "The Fashion Police!"
Illegal cleats would be an example of something we need to deal with.
Sorry if you feel I drifted off topic.
The whole point of the name "fashion police" is to imply that the issue only matters in terms of cosmetics, no? This absolutely isn't fashion police because it has a real and obvious impact in terms of player safety; it's the difference between "are you wearing shoulder pads?" and "are you wearing bicep bands?"
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In addition to safety concerns, some of the so-called "fashion police" items are things which can give one team a competitive advantage over the other, I.e. some of the jersey color schemes. I hate to bring back the topic of the A-11 offense, but one of the things they did was have players deliberately use their arms too hide the uniform number. Now it seems some uniform manufacturers are more than willing to help hide the numbers in the way they design the jerseys.
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As has often been suggested, a prime necessity for officials is solid, rational judgment, followed by the resolve to act upon it. There always is, has been and unfortunately likely will continue to be, those who try and weasel word and nitpick themselves into gaining an unfair, or inappropriate, advantage, that we have an obligation to challenge.
NFHS 1-5-3: Advises, "ILLEGAL equipment. No player shall participate while wearing illegal equipment. This applies to ANY EQUIPMENT, which in THE OPINION OF THE UMPIRE is dangerous, CONFUSING or INAPPROPRIATE.". None of which has anything to do with artistic preferences.
Of course any such judgments by the Umpire should be rooted to compliance with the letter and INTENT of those rules that the Umpire's judgment may be based upon.
Football is a game based on creating advantages and disadvantages, but there is a bright, solid line between advantages & disadvantages that are FAIR and therefore legal, and those that are UNFAIR and therefore ILLEGAL, that regarding matters related to participant equipment, Umpires are responsible to fully understand, and be able to discern.
Remedies to correct discovered violations, not specified in the rules, may well be subject to review, concurrence and authorization by the Referee, who is granted total and absolute authority to rule in such matters by NFHS 1.1-6.
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Big difference in BB spikes and 3/4" screw in replacement cleats.
Not in Oregon.
Either will send you to the showers for the remainder of the game!
And, as a lovely parting gift,
You are awarded two tickets to next weeks game as you won't be playing in that game either!!!
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OHSAA doesn't seem to enforce this, State Champions
The current NFHS rule on numbers says:
The body of the number shall be either
a) a continuous color(s) contrasting with the jersey color, or
b) the same solid color(s) as the jersey with a minimum of one border that is at least 1/4-inch in width of a single solid contrasting color.
(http://image.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width960/img/plain-dealer/photo/2015/12/04/-a74154aae3fd776c.PNG)
(http://image.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width960/img/plain-dealer/photo/2015/12/05/-28408875d56dc7a5.jpg)
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state champs
(http://image.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width960/img/plain-dealer/photo/2015/11/27/-36c2fb13a8aa4124.jpg)
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(http://image.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width960/img/plain-dealer/photo/2015/11/07/-8d2e5ea60faec810.jpg)
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(http://image.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width960/img/plain-dealer/photo/2015/11/01/-0f66fbef3d975f5a.jpg)
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most state champs are wearing illegal numbers
http://www.foxsports.com/ohio/story/ohsaa-state-football-championship-weekend-2015-video-highlights-120815
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Only the last one (of the first set, Holy Name, with the black drop shadow), would be illegal. The others are a continuous color that contrasts with the jersey. Nothing says those contrasting numbers can't also have a border.
None of the rest of them are illegal. You are assuming a contrasting number can't also have a border. Nothing prohibits that. If the number is the same color as the jersey, then the border is required.
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The body of the number shall be either
a) a continuous color(s) contrasting with the jersey color, or
b) the same solid color(s) as the jersey with a minimum of one border that is at least 1/4-inch in width of a single solid contrasting color.
The way it reads is a number with a border must be the same color as the jersey, how could a number with a border be continuous?
Why does the NFHS use the word continuous color? why not solid? Not sure what a continuous color is.
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The way it reads is a number with a border must be the same color as the jersey,
IF the number is the same color as the jersey, it must have a border. It says nothing about a number with a border having to be the same color as a jersey. The rule is not transitive.
Why does the NFHS use the word continuous color? why not solid? Not sure what a continuous color is.
Continuous is not striped, shaded, etc.
Why "continuous" and not "solid"? Now, I have no idea.
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con·tin·u·ous
forming an unbroken whole; without interruption.
So to me the border is broken and not part of the whole but hell what do I know!
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What is wrong with them, Bigjohn?
a) a continuous color(s) contrasting with the jersey color, or
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Those all look legal to me:
"a) a continuous color(s) contrasting with the jersey color"
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they have a border, I know it is ok by interpretation but to me a: should say solid number with or without a border. To me the rule is very unclear.
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they have a border, I know it is ok by interpretation but to me a: should say solid number with or without a border. To me the rule is very unclear.
If you understand intent, how can it be unclear?
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Let's boil this down to the essential here... Is any one of us going to refuse to play a game because the number on the jersey doesn't meet specifications?
Report this to your assigner, and let him decide if it should be reported to the state. If the state doesn't tell a team that the jerseys are illegal, by interpretation they've decided that the jerseys ARE legal.
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Let's boil this down to the essential here...
The essential is:
Can the opponent and officials easily tell at a glance what the number is?
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The essential is:
Can the opponent and officials easily tell at a glance what the number is?
Not quite that easy, as there are legal jerseys that are almost impossible to read the numbers.
The FED rule in this case is terrible compared to the NCAA rule:
The jersey must have clearly visible, permanent Arabic numerals measuring
at least 8 and 10 inches in height front and back, respectively. The number must
be of a color that itself is clearly in distinct contrast with the color of the jersey,
irrespective of any border around the number.
No "same color as the jersey" numbers, regardless of the border.
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Even if reported there will be no action. Legal numbers or illegal jerseys have never resulted in any kind of penalty that I know of!
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except California! any other states do this?
http://www.cifns.org/Announcements/2011-2012/FB%20Jersey%20Memo%20-%202012.pdf
1. Varsity Only – The State CIF has determined that this rule is applicable to Varsity
team competition only. Sub-varsity teams are not subject to the provision of this rule.
2. Non-Compliance – The State CIF has also determined that teams that do not comply
with the rule will be penalized in the following manner in each and every game:
At the pre-game conference between the Referee and the Head Coach, as required
by current NFHS rules, the Referee will ask the Coach if his team is properly
equipped; after the Coach’s response, the Referee will inform the Coach that,
under NFHS rules, his team is not in legal uniform and that he intends to call a
15-yard Unsportsmanlike Conduct foul on the Coach prior to the start of the
contest. Coaches should also be reminded that if any subsequent
Unsportsmanlike Conduct foul is called on him during the contest, he will be
disqualified from the game.
After the game, the Referee should notify the office of the CIF-Section in which
the offending school is located that the team’s uniforms are out of compliance
with NFHS rules. The section will then notify the school that they must be
compliant with this rule by the start of the 2013 season or they may not be
allowed to play with the illegal uniforms.
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The essential is:
Can the opponent and officials easily tell at a glance what the number is?
I agree. But are we going to not play a game because of it? Short of making the home team change their jersey, and odds are that the home team also has a border around their number nowadays. Plus, if the home team's other jerseys are white to begin with, as they should be - what are we realistically going to do?
Even if reported there will be no action. Legal numbers or illegal jerseys have never resulted in any kind of penalty that I know of!
Nor I, John. But ultimately it's going to be up to the state to do something about it. Me on the field Friday night? Not a whole lot I can do.
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odds are that the home team also has a border around their number nowadays.
Borders around numbers are LEGAL! Nothing prohibits borders around the numbers. Numbers that are the same color as the jersey REQUIRE a border. But numbers that are a contrasting color of the jersey have no rule about borders, so they are allowed.
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That is your opinion AB, LOL LOL LOL LOL
http://www.latimes.com/sports/highschool/varsity-times/la-sp-vi-it-s-time-to-rid-football-of-invisible-jersey-numbers-20151002-story.html
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http://www.ncfoa.org/uniforms-NFHS.pdf
I found this which is a good thing to have.
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That is your opinion AB,
I was there! In my earlier life, I was the Director of Research for the company that owned Russell Athletic, at that time, the largest supplier of high school uniforms in the country.
The current rules are actually version 2 of the rules. The original version, dubbed the "Miami" rule, was to try to abolish all of the abominations that the U was putting on the field with Nike, including stripes that went from your butt to over your shoulders. The original rules were so restrictive, that most of the color piping or white piping you see now would have been illegal. Teams hated the rules, manufacturers hated the rules, and a revolt happened. Uniform rules are written 4 years ahead of time, to allow teams to cycle through their current uniforms that might not meet the rules. So before the 2008 rules went into effect, the major manufacturers (except Nike), along with what was then called the SGMA (Sporting Goods Manufacturers Association, a trade association/lobbying group) went to the NFHS with alternative rules. What you see now was the compromise worked out between the manufacturers and the NFHS. Had the NFHS had their way, Penn State's uniforms would have been too ornate.
Of course, all of these rules were written before the proliferation of sublimated printing. At the time of the rules, the major high school suppliers (Russell, Wilson, Rawlings), the major suppliers that were a small part of high school (Adidas, Under Armour) and the mid-majors (Sportsbelle, etc) were willing to play within the rules, and let teams know if what they were ordering wasn't legal (notice I did not include Nike in the group that was willing to play nice). In fact, at Russell, if a school wanted to order a jersey we didn't think was legal, we made them sign a waiver. These days, any fool with a credit card can order these abysmally decorated fabrics from printers in China, and sell uniforms to schools with no concept of legal vs illegal. And there are plenty of coaches willing to buy them.
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Hope you know I am kidding AB, I don't question your knowledge of this subject just funny that I have created some doubt. :sTiR:
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My point was that for those of us on the field on Friday nights, there's no action that we're going to take that directly affects that night. We're still going to play the games regardless of whether one of the teams is wearing a jersey with a stripe where it shouldn't be. Report it to the state, and move on.
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Several seasons ago, one of our R's made the home team go in and change their alternate silvery-gray jerseys to their more traditional home royalish-blue. He deemed the silvery-gray jerseys too close to the visiting team's white.
There was some wailing and gnashing of teeth but they eventually went inside and put on their home blues and peace was restored to the kingdom
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AS A MEMBER OF THE UNIFORM POLICE P_S P_S
IT BECOMES MY DUTY TO....
(1) BE ABLE TO READ THE NUMBERS;
(2) BE ABLE TO TELL THE TEAMS APART;
(3) BE ABLE NOT TO LOOK FOR FLY POOP IN THE PEPPER SHAKER;
(4) BE ABLE TO CONTACT THE PROPER AUTHORITIES THE NEXT DAY,IF:
(A) SOMETHING IS TOO WIDE;
(B) SOMETHING IS TOO NARROW;
(C) SOMETHING IS TOO LONG;
(D) SOMETHING IS TOO SHORT.
PLAY BALL!!!
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Several seasons ago, one of our R's made the home team go in and change their alternate silvery-gray jerseys to their more traditional home royalish-blue. He deemed the silvery-gray jerseys too close to the visiting team's white. There was some wailing and gnashing of teeth but they eventually went inside and put on their home blues and peace was restored to the kingdom
"Weeping & gnashing of teeth" aside, the villain here was the Coach, who is responsible to KNOW the difference between being "at home" or "away" and the rules about dressing accordingly.
Protesting the decision (to correct his foolishness) too vigorously could well have earned him a reserved seat in the locker room (or parking lot) to listen to the game.
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Several seasons ago, one of our R's made the home team go in and change their alternate silvery-gray jerseys to their more traditional home royalish-blue. He deemed the silvery-gray jerseys too close to the visiting team's white.
There was some wailing and gnashing of teeth but they eventually went inside and put on their home blues and peace was restored to the kingdom
With all due respect, Unfortunately for your R, there is that pesky little thing called the Rules Book which always seems to get in the way of a good ballgame. The R is not granted the authority to "deem" in situations which have specific Rules Book coverage! Rule 1-5-1(3) states (with limited exceptions listed in 1-56-1(3)a, b, c and d. ) the Home jersey shall not be white.
The home head coach did his job as his home jerseys were NOT White!
I am fully aware of Rule 1-5-1(3)e and I am fully aware this is what your R hung his hat on. In my opinion it does not apply here.
Why? Because your R has now 'Deemed" that the Silver/Gray jerseys may never be worn! Neither at home, nor on the road; even though they meet all the requirements of the current rule for Home jerseys.
So...
If you don't like a written rule there is a process to change it. Such process does not include deeming!
My 2 cents
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I am fully aware of Rule 1-5-1(3)e and I am fully aware this is what your R hung his hat on. In my opinion it does not apply here.
Why? Because your R has now 'Deemed" that the Silver/Gray jerseys may never be worn! Neither at home, nor on the road; even though they meet all the requirements of the current rule for Home jerseys.
If you don't like a written rule there is a process to change it. Such process does not include deeming!
My 2 cents
In as much that the sample play suggested, "Several seasons ago, one of our R's made the home team go in and change their alternate silvery-gray jerseys to their more traditional home royalish-blue. jerseys, it would seem that the Referee made a reasonable, appropriate and logical request to avoid the high probability of confusion and consternation, possibility caused by an inability to differentiate white from silver, and unnecessarily create chaos.
It appears, despite a minimum of resistance, common sense prevailed and the Home Coach recognized the wisdom of avoiding such confusion and had his team switch to their normal Home jerseys avoiding any necessity to reference further rules, such as NFHS: 1-1-6, which is always at the Referee's disposal.
That which can be handled by common sense, without violating any existing rules, or creating any unfair advantage/disadvantage often doesn't require amplified rule reference.
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No, KWH is correct, this R made up his own rule. And invoked the dreaded God Rule to enforce it. :patrioticon:
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No, KWH is correct, this R made up his own rule. And invoked the dreaded God Rule to enforce it. :patrioticon:
John, it seems much more likely that the Referee would approach the home head coach, rationally and calmly explain the potential for confusion by having 22 players wearing similar colors playing varsity football and suggest that the idea of wearing, what apparently is their "Away" uniforms was less than well thought out, and suggest their usual "Home" uniforms would be a much wiser choice and avoid a lot of totally unnecessary and silly consternation.
The coach, ultimately realizing God had much more important things to concern Himself with, may simply have seen the wisdom of not further embarrassing his school by insisting on such a petulant and childish matter. What you refer to as the "God Rule" could then have been left in it's closet, until something that actually mattered necessitated considering it.
Just a thought.
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John, it seems much more likely that the Referee would approach the home head coach, rationally and calmly explain the potential for confusion by having 22 players wearing similar colors playing varsity football and suggest that the idea of wearing, what apparently is their "Away" uniforms was less than well thought out, and suggest their usual "Home" uniforms would be a much wiser choice and avoid a lot of totally unnecessary and silly consternation.
That's not what the post said. It said, "Several seasons ago, one of our R's made the home team go in and change their alternate silvery-gray jerseys to their more traditional home royalish-blue."
MADE, not ASKED.
And if I'm the coach, and I want our team to wear LEGAL silver jerseys, I simply say, "No, we'll wear these. Thanks." The R has NO authority to MAKE a team change legal jerseys just because HE thinks they are too close to the other team's jerseys.
Wow, what a quick way to lose your privilege of calling Varsity football games, claiming power you simply don't have.
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I'm sure AB is old enough to remember the tear-away jerseys that Tennessee used to wear -- light orange with white numbers and no border. Absolutely legal in those days, and absolutely unreadable.
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I disagree. The R does have the right to make the home team change jerseys. The visitors are responsible for avoiding the mixup, but that's likely because they didn't know the home team would be wearing silvery/grey. The R had a choice - make the home team change jerseys or attempt to officiate a game where it is difficult to tell Team A from Team B. Assuming that the teams jerseys were in fact similar, I think he made the right call.
“The visiting team is responsible for avoidance of similarity of colors, but if there is doubt, the referee may require players of the home team to change jerseys.”
Excerpt From: NFHS. “2015 NFHS Football Rules Book.” NFHS. iBooks.
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So the God Rule is avoided and by Rule the official can deem any combination, confusing (doubt) and make the home team do whatever he wishes.
There you go!
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The God Rule 1-1-6 should, by rule, NEVER be used to "MAKE" a team change jerseys.
Why? Because the God Rule can only be used ...on any situation not specifically covered in the rules.
Jersey requirements are very clearly spelled out and are therefore specifically covered by rule.
Additionally, the suggestion that the silvery grey jerseys were apparently the home teams AWAY jerseys is simply foolhardy and a bit askew! All one need do is simply READ rule 1-5-1(b)2 one would see that the visitors are REQUIRED BY RULE to wear WHITE. (Just like tinted is not clear, Silvery-gray is NOT white)
So my point is, there is no mixup! Why?
We have a crystal clear rule stating the visitors shall only wear White. (They did so!)
We have a crystal clear rule stating the home team shall NOT wear white. (They did so!)
This means there is no "mix up" !
Additionally, this rule makes it clear the Silvery-Grey jerseys, may, by rule, only, legally be worn at home. (They did so)
Who the HECK then are we to insert ourselves into the game and "Deem" these Rules Book Legal, silvery-gray jerseys are illegal for the home team?
Restated, the rules book says silvery-gray is legal, there was no mixup on either coaches part.
This is absolutely no rules book support for the R's action. As such, the R's action was incorrect.
AB's response of No, well go ahead and wear these! Thanks! is right on the money.
Perhaps it may be more productive for some officials to spend time learning:
What is, and what is NOT, a block in the back!
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THE LONE RANGER HAD A HORSE NAMED SILVER
THE CONFEDERATES WORE GRAY IN THE WAR OF NORTHERN AGRESSION
A SILVER BULLET KILLS A WAREWOLF
MY SISTER LIVES IN GRAY,MAINE
NO SCHOOLS IN MAINE HAVE THE COLORS OF SILVER AND GRAY
...I'M GLAD
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How many angels could dance on the head of a pin?
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I'm Glad that you are glad Ralph.
But until the Rule is changed, Silver-Grey shall remain legal Home jerseys.
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We had a local school that wore pale gold basketball jerseys as both their home and road jerseys.
And that's why the rule no longer says "light" jerseys, it says "white".
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Man, I had to break out my secret decoder cursor to see those tricky posts!
you guys are clever and KWH I still agree with you even though an official can use doubt to make this rule stick! Remember the incident mentioned happened before we had Visitor required to wear white rule.
It is in the Rules Book!!
And if you look in the casebook 1.5.1 situation c: it uses the term non- white Today it would definitely be a case of the Visitors being wrong notice it says the R may require the home team to change to white not a darker home jersey.
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"Coach, I am a little concerned, given the close resemblance between your jerseys and the visitor's jerseys, that if there is a block in the back by one of their players it may get charged to one of yours." ;D
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We had a local school that wore pale gold basketball jerseys as both their home and road jerseys.
And that's why the rule no longer says "light" jerseys, it says "white".
Agree.
And if my murky memory serves me correctly Dr. Ralph S led the bandwagon on changing light to white.
I remember him saving, (then) something along the lines of, should both teams show up wearing Light Gold they are both technically correct per our own Rules Book!!! (When Dr. Ralph speaks, people listen!)
Note that Dr. Ralph S could also have used the color Sliver-Gray and meant the same thing!
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The God Rule 1-1-6 should, by rule, NEVER be used to "MAKE" a team change jerseys.
Perhaps it may be more productive for some officials to spend time learning:
Learning rules, to the extent of being able to quote them is something all game officials strive for, understanding the intent of those rules and developing the skills necessary to enforce those rules as inconspicuously and congenially as possible, is even more important.
Apparently some choose to refer NFHS; 1-1-6 as “The God Rule”, where it might logically compare better to a big stick, kept out of sight, that everyone understands is locked in the closet, to be used rarely, if ever necessary. This type dispute should never rivert to a n argument over who has the bigger…..hands.
The notion is that the knowledge, alone, of the sticks existence, will hopefully persuade adults, responsible for the orderly behavior and comportment of what is, in reality, an interscholastic exercise program (although competitive and emotional) to put aside any personal emotional involvement and focus on the larger event and the lessons it provides for the student athletes.
The referenced incident aside, a more appropriate handling of this type dispute, is for the assigned Game Officials, to register their concerns about potentially unnecessary confusion, which may negatively affect play on the field, with the Head Coach, and if necessary with Administrative Game management to explore possible remedies.
In the circumstance where home team contrasting (normal “Home”) jerseys are readily available, it seems logical home team management would readily comply with, the somewhat obvious, suggestion of the home team changing jerseys. There doesn’t seem any need for excessive dispute, argument or displeasure or the discussion ever approaching the level of reference to any rule, or need for any “stick in any closet”.
Rational adults reach a consensus solution in a mature, civil manner that not only handles a difference of opinion practically and logically, and in a manner that allows the contest to progress without any of the potential concerns, recriminations, or disadvantage to either team while TOTALLY eliminating and need to involve the “stick” relaxing in it’s closet
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“The visiting team is responsible for avoidance of similarity of colors, but if there is doubt, the referee may require players of the home team to change jerseys.”
The visiting team was wearing the required white. The home coach, who trust me, knows better, could have avoided the whole mess by calling the visiting team that week and said "Hey, wear your dark jerseys this Friday when you come over".
Made/asked=semantics. "the referee may require players of the home team to change jerseys" If we're going to get picky, apparently by this wording, he could have skipped the coach and just sent the players in to change. Does THAT make everybody feel better now.
He's still a WH so apparently the RSO and the state office had no problem with it.
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Casebook says he may require the home team to change to their WHITE JERSEYS!
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Don't care about this one way or the other, but the rule says R can request the home team to change its jerseys, "(e)The visiting team is responsible for avoidance of similarity of colors, but if there is doubt, the referee may require players of the home team to change jerseys..."; the case book says R can get the home team to change into its white jerseys because the visitors showed up in their non-white jerseys. "1.5.1 SITUATION C:When the game officials arrive on the field, they notice that both teams are wearing non-white jerseys. The visiting team's coach indicates that he was not informed prior to the game as to the color of the home-team's jerseys. RULING: It is the responsibility of the visiting team to wear its white jerseys when playing away from home. Whether the home team did or did not notify the visiting team of its school colors, the rules specify that the visiting team is to wear its white jerseys. The referee may require the home team to change to its white jerseys. This incident should be reported to the proper administrative authorities at the visiting-team's school and the state association office."
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but it sure sounds like if V has white on H can wear any non white they want!!!
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I agree with you, unless there is a "similarity of colors" of the H and V jerseys. In that case the R can request the home team to change into a jersey that is not similar. In the discussion about the silver/grey jerseys, that is one of those "I have to see it in real time" to make a decision about "similarity". Even though I have the responsibility as R, I think this would be a crew decision. If the crew has trouble telling the teams apart, I am going to ask the H team to change.
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He's still a WH so apparently the RSO and the state office had no problem with it.
+1
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He's still a WH so apparently the RSO and the state office had no problem with it.
1. Don't know what an RSO is.
2. Did the coach complain, or just change them? If he just changed them, it probably went no further, so we don't know what would have happened.
3. The only way we know that the state had no problem with it is if the coach made an issue out of it and took it to the state.
Suppose the coach said, "No, these are legal jerseys and we aren't changing." If the R then forfeits the game and the state upholds the forfeit, THEN we know the state supported the call. But I'm betting it never got to that point. I wonder if the state ever even knew about it.
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Is there really no Fed rule that requires the teams' jerseys to be clearly distinguishable from each other? Y'all can make a player take his shoes off because they aren't sufficiently high on the Rockwell hardness scale, but you can't stop Toad Suck High claiming that their home jerseys this year are a fetching shade of pale cream? That seems rather odd.
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1. Don't know what an RSO is.
2. Did the coach complain, or just change them? If he just changed them, it probably went no further, so we don't know what would have happened.
3. The only way we know that the state had no problem with it is if the coach made an issue out of it and took it to the state.
Suppose the coach said, "No, these are legal jerseys and we aren't changing." If the R then forfeits the game and the state upholds the forfeit, THEN we know the state supported the call. But I'm betting it never got to that point. I wonder if the state ever even knew about it.
+1
And also don't know what an RSO is!
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Booking agents became Regional Supervisor of Officials (RSO) when the state eliminated "associations" and the voting of the membership to name the booking agent, who in turn had to then be approved by the state office.
Conceivably, the association could vote someone as their booking agent and the state say "no thank you, try again." The RSO still controls our local MS and youth assignments and so we have to pay a fee to him and a fee to the state.
HC did the prerequisite whining but eventually had his team put their blue jerseys on. The "incident" was reported via the chain of command.
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Booking agents became Regional Supervisor of Officials (RSO) when the state eliminated "associations" and the voting of the membership to name the booking agent, who in turn had to then be approved by the state office.
Conceivably, the association could vote someone as their booking agent and the state say "no thank you, try again." The RSO still controls our local MS and youth assignments and so we have to pay a fee to him and a fee to the state.
HC did the prerequisite whining but eventually had his team put their blue jerseys on. The "incident" was reported via the chain of command.
So......the question remains...
.....under this NC chain of command approved interpretation by the White Hat...
....when would this team be allowed to wear their brand new Silver/Grey Jersey's???
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I once asked my grandmother if she had gray hair....
....She responded that her hair was silver, NOT gray!!
I asked as to the difference.....
...She responded : "SILVER SHINES, GRAY DOESN'T"
MORALE OF STORY : THERE IS ONLY A SLIGHT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SILVER AND GRAY...THE PRINCIPAL, HEADMASTER, SUPERTENDENT,WHATEVER SHOULD LEAD THE STUDENT BODY IN CHOOSING A NEW SCHOOL COLOR WITH A BETER CONTRAST.
I'D CHOOSE THIS
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Ralph/Rulesman
PLEASE
ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hEaDbAnG hEaDbAnG hEaDbAnG hEaDbAnG hEaDbAnG
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So...
The moral to the story seems to be...
In NC, the Rules Book is set aside affording the R to make an unabated decision,
Silver/Grey may not be worn at either Home or Away?
Is my understanding correct?
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Thoughts on this Jersey? (Regarding legality I mean- I know it's ugly. That's beside the point
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Thoughts on this Jersey? (Regarding legality I mean- I know it's ugly. That's beside the point
I assume that's a home jersey. It's illegal because of the white sleeves. (In looking at the picture, it might be sleeveless. If so, it would be legal)
If it's a road jersey, it's illegal because of the color.
And yes, it's ugly.
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It is illegal as a home jersey as it has White in it.
It is illegal as an away jersey as it has color in it.
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It looks sleeveless to me, AB.
And yes, it is ugly.
I blame Big Swoosh.
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TOMMORROW MARKS A MONTH OF THIS LIVELY AND THOUGHTFUL TOPIC LYING DORMANT...JUST WHEN IT SEEMED TO HAVE SO MUCH POTENTIAL nAnA
tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:(This may become my favorite icon)
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OK Ralph, point well taken! Therefore to continue the conversation, has anyone but me been bothered by the fact that none of the jerseys pictured on this thread have been actual size. Nor have there been any measuring devices pictured along with the jerseys. In other words, while many have wailed and gnashed teeth over number borders and/or lack thereof and over the color schemes, NOBODY seems to care whether the numbers themselves meet the 8" in front and 10" in back requirements. Perhaps a few dozen posts about number size would rekindle the spirit and intent of this thread.
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Prab has an excellent point...we failed to give the discussion of numbers ample coverage. My concern is that1-5-3c states : "...using Arabic numbers.." and in the politically correct world of ours, a school may wish to pay homage to those brave Roman gladiators of yesterday who may have been eaten by lions. By state adoption, a team should be allowed to use Roman numerals (I-XCIX) to honor those who ended on the wrong end of the food chain back in the frenzied Colosseum era. Of course, LXXX-XCIX would be eligible receivers.
Opinions, anyone :o 8] ??? ::) :P.....
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Prab has an excellent point...we failed to give the discussion of numbers ample coverage. My concern is that1-5-3c states : "...using Arabic numbers.." and in the politically correct world of ours, a school may wish to pay homage to those brave Roman gladiators of yesterday who may have been eaten by lions. By state adoption, a team should be allowed to use Roman numerals (I-XCIX) to honor those who ended on the wrong end of the food chain back in the frenzied Colosseum era. Of course, LXXX-XCIX would be eligible receivers.
Opinions, anyone :o 8] ??? ::) :P.....
Might be difficult to put ole #88 out there. How would you fit LXXXVIII in 8" or 10" numerals? It would have to be a rather large player, don't you think?
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LXXXVIII is 1011000 in binary so I guess that wouldn't help much either.
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GAHSUMP & Prab have came up possible problems :( :o. My Roman numeral proposal could be modified to allow the current numbering system to used in situations they mentioned. Consideration should also be given to follow the NFL's lead on Super Bowl numbering and use "50" in lieu of "L". Apparently "L" is said to denote bad connotations such as : loser, louse, lice, leper, little and the like. While on the equipment chapter, should we not go to metric dimensions to show the world that we wan to be like them :o 8] ??? ::)??? Should we not also consider removing the score from the scoreboard to show the world how nice we are :o 8] ??? ::) :P????? It would now become the time board as, IMHO, the game would still need to be timed. Your opinions on the need to still keep downs and distance, as per chance, we should let the team keep the ball until they feel they have had it long enough.
A post-game gathering, sponsored by the football boosters, could be held at mid-field with both teams, coaches and officials. Milk and cookies would be served and all present would tell each other how good they were.
POINTS TO PONDER OVER THE UPCOMING WEEKEND...
Have a good one, y'all!
tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl