Author Topic: Correct Ruling and ball placement  (Read 2924 times)

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Offline juxone

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Correct Ruling and ball placement
« on: October 04, 2020, 01:23:40 PM »
It is 3rd down. A has the ball on THEIR 1/2 Yard line. After a legal snap A1 scrambles in his own end and finding no open receiver he throws the ball forward to the ground. What is the correct ruling, penalty and placement?

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Correct Ruling and ball placement
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2020, 02:02:34 PM »
It is 3rd down. A has the ball on THEIR 1/2 Yard line. After a legal snap A1 scrambles in his own end and finding no open receiver he throws the ball forward to the ground. What is the correct ruling, penalty and placement?

Illegal FP, spot foul, Safety (whether the pwnalty is accepted or declined.

Offline juxone

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Re: Correct Ruling and ball placement
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2020, 02:13:12 PM »
Wouldnt this be a foul for intentional grounding with a resulting loss of down, if accepted, in addition to the safety? And if this is a safety then A would kick and during the Kick is a "Tee" permitted. I know it is not allowed in NFL but I have found some conflicting information regarding a Kick following a safety in NFHS. 

Offline CalhounLJ

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Correct Ruling and ball placement
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2020, 02:36:03 PM »
Wouldnt this be a foul for intentional grounding with a resulting loss of down, if accepted, in addition to the safety? And if this is a safety then A would kick and during the Kick is a "Tee" permitted. I know it is not allowed in NFL but I have found some conflicting information regarding a Kick following a safety in NFHS.
Yes which is exactly what Al posted. Except it’s not in addition to the safety. The penalty enforcement in that situation IS the safety. In other words, we are not marking off 5 yds on the kickoff. A/K will kickoff from their own 20. They may use any type of free kick to do so, including the traditional kick from a Tee. They also may choose to use a punt in this case, which BTW, is forbidden during other free kicks.

Also, the loss of down aspect has no bearing on this play. It’s not like we go back to previous spot mark off 5 and play 4th down. Because it’s a spot foul, the only outcome here is a safety. If B declines the penalty, A is in possession in their own end zone after forcing the ball in there. Safety. If B accepts the penalty we have a spot of enforcement (end of run) in A’s end zone which by rule, is a safety.


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« Last Edit: October 04, 2020, 02:40:36 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline juxone

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Re: Correct Ruling and ball placement
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2020, 04:41:15 PM »
 pi1eOn thanks, I guess if I had tought about it a little more: "The penalty enforcement in that situation IS the safety." that would have made complete sense. Thanks for the detailed reply.  hEaDbAnG

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Correct Ruling and ball placement
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2020, 08:00:51 AM »
It has been discussed to carry over the penalty yardage to the free kick following the safety, but it was the general feeling that the two points plus the ball was penalty enough. For the ensuing free kick a tee may be used. If a punt is to be used, it has to be made within one step of K's line ( K can enter the 10 yd. moat once the ball is kicked and this prevents the punter to kick a "grounder" from back around his goal line with his teammates arriving at R's line- K's 30- before the ball). I'll usually remind R that if the punt goes 10 yards, like a kickoff, K can recover and keep the ball. Remember, too, that if the punt goes OOB untouched by R =  ^flag.

Offline juxone

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Re: Correct Ruling and ball placement
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2020, 02:34:05 PM »
So adding another point in the discussion.. If After a TD, "A" attempts 2 points, B commits a foul for holding and A does not score. If the penalty is accepted and the try is replayed by "A" do they AGAIN get to have the ball placed anywhere between the hash marks. I know that in the initial effort they had the choice (8-3-1) but the rule book is silent on subsequent attempts. 8-3-6 b
« Last Edit: October 06, 2020, 02:35:41 PM by juxone »

Offline GA Umpire

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Re: Correct Ruling and ball placement
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2020, 05:45:08 PM »
So adding another point in the discussion.. If After a TD, "A" attempts 2 points, B commits a foul for holding and A does not score. If the penalty is accepted and the try is replayed by "A" do they AGAIN get to have the ball placed anywhere between the hash marks. I know that in the initial effort they had the choice (8-3-1) but the rule book is silent on subsequent attempts. 8-3-6 b
Yes.  4-3-7
". . .,  "A" shall have the same privilege if the down is to be replayed. . . "

Offline juxone

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Re: Correct Ruling and ball placement
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2020, 07:08:05 PM »
 yEs: Great thanks, looked all over for that-- just not in the out of bounds..!!!!

Offline SCline

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Re: Correct Ruling and ball placement
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2020, 09:16:41 PM »
Illegal FP, spot foul, Safety (whether the pwnalty is accepted or declined.

I’d like clarification here. The result of the play is an incomplete forward pass. If the penalty is accepted it is a safety as the spot of the foul is the As end zone. If the penalty is declined it should be 4th down from the 1/2 yard line, not a safety should it not?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Correct Ruling and ball placement
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2020, 09:31:21 PM »
I’d like clarification here. The result of the play is an incomplete forward pass. If the penalty is accepted it is a safety as the spot of the foul is the As end zone. If the penalty is declined it should be 4th down from the 1/2 yard line, not a safety should it not?
No. The succeeding spot for an illegal forward pass is the spot where the illegal forward pass was thrown.


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Offline GA Umpire

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Re: Correct Ruling and ball placement
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2020, 09:35:06 PM »
I’d like clarification here. The result of the play is an incomplete forward pass. If the penalty is accepted it is a safety as the spot of the foul is the As end zone. If the penalty is declined it should be 4th down from the 1/2 yard line, not a safety should it not?
Per 2-33-2 and 10-3-2, this is defined as a "running play".

The basic spot for a running play is the end of the run, which in the OP is in the end zone.  Therefore, the result of the play is a safety whether the penalty is accepted or not.

8.5.2 Situation D 

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Offline SCline

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Re: Correct Ruling and ball placement
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2020, 10:00:51 PM »
10-5-4 actually covers this exact situation and says “if the offensive team throws an illegal forward pass from its end zone or commits a any other foul there for which the penalty is accepted...it is a safety”

It Appears that B has no options in this play. There is no possible way to decline the penalty.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Correct Ruling and ball placement
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2020, 09:40:35 AM »
IG =IFP = running play because :

(1) If it was treated as a pass play with loose ball (previous spot enforcement) A could come out better with previous spot enforcement;

(2) IFP on a dropped forward pass (incomplete IFP) downfield would require previous spot enforcement which could negate the yards gained prior to the IFP.

Offline Ia-Ref

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Re: Correct Ruling and ball placement
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2020, 05:59:37 PM »
Iowa has an experimental rule this season where the passer may ground the ball if outside the tackles and the ball goes beyond the neutral zone.
In the example given, if both the conditions I mention above apply, incomplete pass.  Otherwise a safety.
"Because you can referee wrong, make a mistake, but what you can not do is create your own sense of justice and, even worse, invent a very personal application of the rules."   Dutch legend (soccer coach) Johan Cruyff