Author Topic: 2017 CFO Exam  (Read 4524 times)

Online #92

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Re: 2017 CFO Exam Q32
« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2017, 05:01:34 AM »
Q32
Hard to decipher the chain of events, but, the ball is dead when A44 steps on the sideline - that's not in dispute.  Forward progress should be given to the forward point of the ball when it becomes dead.  That sounds like the ball is dead somewhere between the B-2 and the goal line.  Definitely not a TD, since the BC was OB before he contacted the pylon or touched the ground in the end zone, so he isn't entitled to the goal line extended.  The chances that the ball is at the B-1 when A44 steps on the sideline are much better than it being at the B-2.
I get A, 3/G, B-1.
Concur or dispute?
A BC striding along the sideline is treated the same as an airborne receiver with regards to Rule 4-2-4-d.

Although I can't find any proof of it... But I'm 100 % sure I read it somewhere from a respected source...

Anyone any thoughts?

Edit: here it is: http://www.emaifo.net/wpcontent/2011//2011_CFO_-_Interpretation_-_Airborne_Runner,_Sideline.pdf

This document is 6 years old but the Rule hasn't been updated. That's sad...
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 05:27:46 AM by #92 »

Offline VaBackJudge

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Re: 2017 CFO Exam
« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2017, 08:59:14 AM »
Also A.R. 8-2-1-VII-(b):

"VII. Ball carrier A22 heads for the right-hand pylon at the goal line. The ball in his right hand crosses the extension of the goal line outside (i.e., to the right of) the pylon, and then A22 steps (a) on the goal line; (b) on the sideline inches short of the goal line. RULING: (a) Touchdown. The goal-line plane is extended because A22 touches the ground in the end zone. (b) Not a touchdown. The goal-line plane is not extended. The ball is ruled out of bounds at the crossing point."

Online #92

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Re: 2017 CFO Exam
« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2017, 09:28:32 AM »
Also A.R. 8-2-1-VII-(b):

"VII. Ball carrier A22 heads for the right-hand pylon at the goal line. The ball in his right hand crosses the extension of the goal line outside (i.e., to the right of) the pylon, and then A22 steps (a) on the goal line; (b) on the sideline inches short of the goal line. RULING: (a) Touchdown. The goal-line plane is extended because A22 touches the ground in the end zone. (b) Not a touchdown. The goal-line plane is not extended. The ball is ruled out of bounds at the crossing point."
As written in Rule 4-2-4-d, could've seen that.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: 2017 CFO Exam
« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2017, 10:42:00 AM »
The "crossing point" thing is the issue.  Since the exam statement says the ball crossed the sideline at the B-2, it would appear that, by AR 8-2-1-V(II-(b), they want us to put the ball at the B-2, even if the ball was at the B-1 (extended) when A44 stepped on the sideline.  That just doesn't sound fair.  In another scenario, the BC could have been running with the ball over the ground outside the sideline for a very long way.  Are we supposed to go back to the point where it crossed the sideline?  I don't think so.  Perhaps what they mean is that, in the instance where the ball crosses the sideline, and, in the same step, the BC steps OB, then the ball is OB at the crossing point.  But, it gets really sticky if, for example, he extends the ball outside the sideline at the B-5, and carries it there while he tip-toes along the sideline and finally steps OB at the B-1.  Put it back at the B-5?  Or give him progress to where the ball is at the moment he steps OB?  What if that progress is actually penetrating the goal line extended?  In that instance, perhaps we need a rule/ruling that tells us to place the ball at the B-1, or the spot where the BC stepped on the sideline, whichever is closer to the goal line.

For the purpose of answering the exam quiz, I now think "c." is the correct answer.   

Offline Rulesman

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Re: 2017 CFO Exam
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2017, 12:54:32 PM »
Don't overthink this. You're making it more difficult than it really is.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: 2017 CFO Exam
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2017, 02:58:25 PM »
Don't overthink this. You're making it more difficult than it really is.

Not really.  I had a play much like this before RR started changing things, back when the previous Sec-Ed interpreted the goal line as extending beyond the side line, as long as the BC (or 'runner,' back then) was on his feet (not airborne).  BC was approaching the right pylon, at an angle, with the ball in his right arm.  To avoid a defender, he spun himself counterclockwise as he was exiting the field of play outside the pylon.  He extended his right arm forward as he was spinning (I believe in an attempt to make the ball cross over the pylon).  While the BC was still on his feet, the ball first crossed the sideline, then crossed the goal line extended (possibly over the pylon, but never got a good enough camera view of it to tell for certain - not that it mattered, then) before anything touched a pylon or the ground OB.  Ruled TD, which was correct then.  But now, we have to put the ball back where it crossed the sideline.  Which raises the question: How far back would we have to place the ball, if the BC actually extended the ball over the sideline and kept it there for some several (or many) steps before he is OB?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 08:34:09 PM by ElvisLives »

Online #92

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Re: 2017 CFO Exam
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2017, 05:00:26 PM »
[...] Which raises the question: How far back we would have to place the ball, if the BC actually extended the ball over the sideline and kept it there for some several (or many) steps before he is OB?
I agree with you: this is not a very good rule, since that could take away much yardage. It is however the rule, I'm afraid...

Offline ElvisLives

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2017 CFO Exam No. 16
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2017, 10:50:01 PM »
I believe the correct answer is "b".
The only issue I have with this question, and AR 3-3-9-V, is running a play clock from 40 seconds, when there is less than 40 seconds remaining in the period.  The CCA manual directs officials to turn off the clock if there is less time remaining in the period than the appropriate play clock setting.
Now, I'll admit, AR 3-3-9-V tells us to set the play clock to 40, but it doesn't actually say to run the play clock from 40.  But, it would be so much better to blank the displays, if possible.

While it may not hurt anything to run the play clock from 40 seconds in this situation, it just looks silly.


Online #92

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Re: 2017 CFO Exam
« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2017, 01:24:24 PM »
Quote from:  "Question 30"
Early in the second quarter, during a play in which the ball carrier is tackled inbounds, B55’s helmet comes off during the play (no foul involved). Team B opts to use a timeout to keep B55 in the game. The play clock will be set to ___ and the game clock will start on the ____.
a. 25 seconds; snap
b. 25 seconds; Referee’s signal
c. 40 seconds; snap
d. 40 seconds; Referee’s signal
Apparently the answer is "a".
I understand the snap, as per Rule 3-3-2-e-16.
But why is it not the ready as per Rule 3-2-4-c-13?

While I'm writing this, I see Rule 3-3-9-b-1, with leads us indeed to answer "a".
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 04:04:14 AM by #92 »

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: 2017 CFO Exam
« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2017, 01:35:31 PM »
Its a time out.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: 2017 CFO Exam
« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2017, 07:46:20 PM »
Its a time out.

But for clarity here the TO starts initially as an official's TO when we stop the clock after the DB to send the player who has lost his helmet off the field.  It converts to a simple team TO when Team B opts to use a TO to allow B55 to remain on the field for the next play.  That means 25 sec play clock on the ready with game clock on the snap.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline ElvisLives

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2017 CFO Exam - my answers, FWTW
« Reply #61 on: July 16, 2017, 12:54:40 AM »
After 41 years of football officiating, I 'retired' after the 2012 season.  I got bored and fat, and decided to jump back in this year.  To get back into the rules, I decided to answer the CFO Pre-season exam with as much depth as I could, i.e., by identifying applicable rule and AR references with each answer.  For what it may be worth to others, I have attached the document I created here.  I would consider it a massive favor and a blessing if anyone chose to review some, or all, of it, and offered comment.  I welcome any and all challenges to my responses, cuz I'm sure I missed something, somewhere.

For me, it was a great exercise - enormously helpful in refreshing my rule understanding, as well as re-mapping my mind with the numerous re-organizations of the book that RR has made.  Not bad - just some significant differences.

Looking forward to September!

Offline Kalle

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Re: 2017 CFO Exam - my answers, FWTW
« Reply #62 on: July 16, 2017, 03:54:09 AM »
I would consider it a massive favor and a blessing if anyone chose to review some, or all, of it, and offered comment.  I welcome any and all challenges to my responses, cuz I'm sure I missed something, somewhere.

Thank you for writing out your explanations. I caught several of my mistakes from those. I disagree with only two of your answers.

#44 - In your explanation you say that the block is towards team A's goal line and as such it is illegal. I don't see how the play situation description defines the direction of the block so my answer is b.

#89 - Rule 6-3-2-b makes no exception for this type of violation not being cancelled by an accepted penalty. A.R. 6-3-11-III is this exact play (unless it is removed in the 2017 book, unfortunately I don't have that yet). My answer is d.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: 2017 CFO Exam
« Reply #63 on: July 16, 2017, 10:23:29 AM »
Kalle,

Thank you, and bless you, for taking the time to review my answers. 

Yes, I concur that my initial explanation of #44 is incorrect, and my initial answer/explanation to #89 is incorrect. 

But, for #44, I need a better understanding of the BBW rules that have been transformed drastically since 2012.  (I think I misread the exam statement, and thought the B-48 was the A-48, which would have made the block toward A's end line.)  I don't seem to grasp the "10 o'clock and 2 o'clock" component of the rule.  I read that to mean that if a player blocks an opponent directly from the side, i.e., on the same line as a line drawn through the opponent's hips, that would be in the 3 o'clock (or 9 o'clock) direction - right?  And, as such, would be illegal by all Team A players after they, or the ball, have left the tackle box.  So, in exam statement #44, A66 is outside the TB when he throws the block, so his block would have to be within the 10-2 region of the opponent he blocks, to be legal.  The statement says the block is in the 3 o'clock direction, which, with my 'rookie' understanding of this rule, would seem to be illegal.  The penalty would be from the spot of the foul, since it is beyond the NZ, but behind the end of the related run.  That would yield the A-37, and repeat third down, i.e., A, 3/13, A-37.  Uh oh.  None of the answer choices match that.
What do I not understand?

As for #89, I just brain farted, which is exactly why I posted my answers.  Thank you.  Team A is just in a "no win" position if they illegally touch the ball.  To keep the ball, Team A would have to decline the penalty for B77's holding foul.  In the absence of an accepted penalty, Team B can then elect to invoke the illegal touching privilege, which would give them the ball at the B-20 (which is the artificial spot of illegal touching for the batting by A88 in B's end zone).  Team A can accept the penalty for B77's holding foul, but it will be enforced at the previous spot, since it is a foul that occurs during scrimmage kick play.  Since we don't know the distance to be gained for a first down, we don't know for certain what the next down will be (either repeat the previous down or award Team A a new series).  PSK does not apply, because A-43's recovery was legal (after B-22's muff), and, by the pure result of the play, Team A would next snap the ball (and PSK requires that Team B would next put the ball in play).  So, answer choices 'a' thru 'c' are incorrect, so the only answer for this statement is 'd.'

I won't be working collegiate football any more (local Texas HS football, though), so I don't have a need to protect my identity, and I like to be able to sign my posts.  So, thank you very much for your help, and I look forward to more conversations.

Robert Cameron
Lubbock, Texas

Offline Kalle

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Re: 2017 CFO Exam
« Reply #64 on: July 16, 2017, 11:01:08 AM »
But, for #44, I need a better understanding of the BBW rules that have been transformed drastically since 2012.  (I think I misread the exam statement, and thought the B-48 was the A-48, which would have made the block toward A's end line.)  I don't seem to grasp the "10 o'clock and 2 o'clock" component of the rule.  I read that to mean that if a player blocks an opponent directly from the side, i.e., on the same line as a line drawn through the opponent's hips, that would be in the 3 o'clock (or 9 o'clock) direction - right?  And, as such, would be illegal by all Team A players after they, or the ball, have left the tackle box.  So, in exam statement #44, A66 is outside the TB when he throws the block, so his block would have to be within the 10-2 region of the opponent he blocks, to be legal.  The statement says the block is in the 3 o'clock direction, which, with my 'rookie' understanding of this rule, would seem to be illegal.  The penalty would be from the spot of the foul, since it is beyond the NZ, but behind the end of the related run.  That would yield the A-37, and repeat third down, i.e., A, 3/13, A-37.  Uh oh.  None of the answer choices match that.
What do I not understand?

I'm very often wrong with BBW questions, and failed, although I tried to decipher the rules correctly, whereas you hit it right on the nail again. I guess c) is the right answer and the 3/15 is just a typo.



Offline ElvisLives

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Re: 2017 CFO Exam
« Reply #65 on: July 16, 2017, 01:49:32 PM »
If somebody else has info that could explain #44, and a possibly correct answer, I think we'd all benefit.  But, maybe it is, in fact, just a case of a "typo" at answer choice 'c'.
Either way, "inquiring minds want to know."  We just want to get it right.

Thanks, Kalle.

Robert

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: 2017 CFO Exam
« Reply #66 on: July 16, 2017, 02:12:09 PM »
I think you're confusing the previous spot with the line to gain in the original play. The previous spot is the 50, the line to gain is the B-48. If the ball is at the A-37, it's 3rd and 15.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: 2017 CFO Exam
« Reply #67 on: July 16, 2017, 02:47:08 PM »
Well, there you have it.  I'd like to blame that on math, but, it is just having a correct understanding of the related spots.  I truly don't think this is a mistake I/we would make on the field.  But, as Legacy notes, I confused the previous spot with the line-to-gain.  Whew.  So, it looks like 'c' is the correct answer, and I think I correctly understand the 10-2 rule.
Thanks, Legacy!
Robert

Offline ruletool

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Re: 2017 CFO Exam Q32
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2017, 03:25:46 AM »
Edit: here it is: http://www.emaifo.net/wpcontent/2011//2011_CFO_-_Interpretation_-_Airborne_Runner,_Sideline.pdf

This document is 6 years old but the Rule hasn't been updated. That's sad...
Many thanks for posting this. I couldn't reason why spotting the ball at the B-2 would be the correct answer until now.

Offline ElvisLives

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Official answers document - an error
« Reply #69 on: July 19, 2017, 09:45:32 PM »
At statement 27, I discovered that I listed the wrong answer choice in my unofficial answers document, although my "Rule Support/Rationale" appears to be fully correct.  I listed 'a.' as the answer choice, but that is incorrect, because the clock will start on the snap, by rule 3-3-2-c, because of the apparent touchdown.  Fortunately, I had noted that the clock is to start on the next snap.  So, 'b.' is the correct answer choice. Sorry if that confused anybody.
Robert