Author Topic: enforcement question....2 changes of possession  (Read 495 times)

Offline fudilligas

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enforcement question....2 changes of possession
« on: November 13, 2017, 07:43:27 AM »
how is this enforced: ball on A20
     a. holding by A60 on LOS on before pass is intercepted by B10 at midfield
     b. during the return B15 blocks in the back on A40
     c. B10 returns the interception to the A35 where he fumbles and is recovered by A on A30

how are these penalties administered...i don't believe they automatically offset since there were "clean hands" involved with the interception....

     

Offline bossman72

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Re: enforcement question....2 changes of possession
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2017, 07:56:56 AM »
Yes, this is an offset.

"Clean hands" deals with the team last in possession at the end of the down (who will next put the ball in play).

A did not have clean hands, and B also had a foul, therefore these will offset.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: enforcement question....2 changes of possession
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2017, 07:58:34 AM »
Still a double-foul (offset, repeat the down) NFHS 10-2-1b; "There is a COP, and the team in possession at the end of the down fouls prior to the final COP...."

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: enforcement question....2 changes of possession
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2017, 08:33:14 AM »
.....and the clock will start on the RFP as A, not B, is awarded a new series (2-4-3b).

Offline Curious

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Re: enforcement question....2 changes of possession
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2017, 12:19:57 PM »
.....and the clock will start on the RFP as A, not B, is awarded a new series (2-4-3b).
i
And who's choice (regarding the restarting of the clock) is it if the foul(s) occur inside 2 minutes remaining on the 2nd or 4th periods? :sTiR: :sTiR: cRaZy cRaZy

Online CalhounLJ

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enforcement question....2 changes of possession
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2017, 12:48:58 PM »
If it’s a double foul there is no choice concerning clock status.


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« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 12:52:23 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline VA Official

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Re: enforcement question....2 changes of possession
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2017, 01:53:59 PM »
If itís a double foul there is no choice concerning clock status.


Offline Curious

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Re: enforcement question....2 changes of possession
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2017, 03:21:07 PM »
If itís a double foul there is no choice concerning clock status.


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I understand that this is a double foul - and that there is a replay of the down.  However, where (unless your state has provided a specific interpretation) is there any clarification regarding the clock status inside two minutes of each half when we have a double foul - or even a live/dead ball scenario?  Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that "no choice" SHOULD BE the call (see my comments under a different thread); but, I cannot point to specific supporting rule coverage.

Offline VA Official

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Re: enforcement question....2 changes of possession
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2017, 04:11:13 PM »
I understand that this is a double foul - and that there is a replay of the down.  However, where (unless your state has provided a specific interpretation) is there any clarification regarding the clock status inside two minutes of each half when we have a double foul - or even a live/dead ball scenario?  Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that "no choice" SHOULD BE the call (see my comments under a different thread); but, I cannot point to specific supporting rule coverage.

3-4-7 says "when a penalty is accepted..." and there is no acceptance nor an option for either team in a double foul situation. "The penalties cancel and the down is replayed." 10-2-1.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: enforcement question....2 changes of possession
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2017, 09:21:11 PM »
.....and the clock will start on the RFP as A, not B, is awarded a new series (2-4-3b).

Or, as I was taught:  "A-B-A = Ready For Play".

Offline fudilligas

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Re: enforcement question....2 changes of possession
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2017, 09:08:32 AM »
Still a double-foul (offset, repeat the down) NFHS 10-2-1b; "There is a COP, and the team in possession at the end of the down fouls prior to the final COP...."

.....and the clock will start on the RFP as A, not B, is awarded a new series (2-4-3b).

what am i missing here....Alupstate says  "Still a double-foul (offset, repeat the down)"...Ralph says "start on the RFP as A, not B, is awarded a new series"....if we are repeating the down why is A awarded a new series....i understand that there was a COP involved but if we are repeating the down, 3rd for example, why would A be given a new series....there appears to be a contradiction..at least to me

Online CalhounLJ

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Re: enforcement question....2 changes of possession
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2017, 09:26:29 AM »
The reference to the new series by A is only for clock status purposes. When deciding RFP/Snap, remember it's determined by the action that caused the clock to be stopped. in this case, the action that caused the clock to be stopped would have been an awarded series by A. Therefore, even though we replay the down, the clock starts on the RFP. Had the play ended in a run OOB, then even though the down would be replayed, the clock would have started on the snap.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: enforcement question....2 changes of possession
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2017, 10:16:49 AM »
I understand that this is a double foul - and that there is a replay of the down.  However, where (unless your state has provided a specific interpretation) is there any clarification regarding the clock status inside two minutes of each half when we have a double foul - or even a live/dead ball scenario?  Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that "no choice" SHOULD BE the call (see my comments under a different thread); but, I cannot point to specific supporting rule coverage.
There was a case in the extended list published by NFHS following the interp meeting in late July.
Don't confuse ,however, dueling live ball/ dead ball fouls with a double foul. Example...

Under 2:00 in either half, WHEN :
  (1) During the run that stayed inbounds, big ole' Bubba(OL) kicks Tugboat (LB) in the "baby-makers";
  (2) after the play -and pain- Tugboat throws his helmet at Bubba;
  (3) after the penalty measurements, and wishing Bubba "bon voyage", the defense (offended live ball team) could choose to start on the snap. If they didn't, the offense (offended dead ball team) would have that choice. 

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: enforcement question....2 changes of possession
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2017, 10:42:15 AM »
The reference to the new series by A is only for clock status purposes. When deciding RFP/Snap, remember it's determined by the action that caused the clock to be stopped. in this case, the action that caused the clock to be stopped would have been an awarded series by A. Therefore, even though we replay the down, the clock starts on the RFP. Had the play ended in a run OOB, then even though the down would be replayed, the clock would have started on the snap.
The reference to the new series by A is only for clock status purposes. When deciding RFP/Snap, remember it's determined by the action that caused the clock to be stopped. in this case, the action that caused the clock to be stopped would have been an awarded series by A. Therefore, even though we replay the down, the clock starts on the RFP. Had the play ended in a run OOB, then even though the down would be replayed, the clock would have started on the snap.
Sorry for the confusion, guys, I was only referencing that, even though we had a COP, A ended up with the ball and a new series with the clock starting on the ready. Back in 1996, when we adjusted the timing rule to start on the snap following a COP, the rationale was to allow teams to change their units without the worry of the clock starting on the RFP. When you have dueling COPs both team's proper units are already on the field.

Offline Delta51

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Re: enforcement question....2 changes of possession
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2017, 12:01:41 PM »
how is this enforced: ball on A20
     a. holding by A60 on LOS on before pass is intercepted by B10 at midfield
     b. during the return B15 blocks in the back on A40
     c. B10 returns the interception to the A35 where he fumbles and is recovered by A on A30

how are these penalties administered...i don't believe they automatically offset since there were "clean hands" involved with the interception....

   
Is it not possible for B to refuse A60's hold and have the BIB enforced from where the ball was fumbled and keep possesion. B got the ball with "clean hands". B's foul was committed after COP.
Guessing the fumble recovery by A makes my statement false.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: enforcement question....2 changes of possession
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2017, 12:58:02 PM »
Is it not possible for B to refuse A60's hold and have the BIB enforced from where the ball was fumbled and keep possesion. B got the ball with "clean hands". B's foul was committed after COP.
Guessing the fumble recovery by A makes my statement false.
That choice would have been available IF B had not fumbled. No one had clean hands =double fouls

Offline VALJ

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Re: enforcement question....2 changes of possession
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2017, 01:19:16 PM »
Is it not possible for B to refuse A60's hold and have the BIB enforced from where the ball was fumbled and keep possesion. B got the ball with "clean hands". B's foul was committed after COP.
Guessing the fumble recovery by A makes my statement false.

Since B did not end the down with possession of the ball, B can not choose to decline A's foul.  Only the team with possession at the end of the down could have that option, and only if they got the ball with clean hands.

As others have said - offset the fouls, wind it on the whistle, and play on.

Offline js in sc

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Re: enforcement question....2 changes of possession
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2017, 01:46:34 PM »
And the down remains the same, not a new series since we are replaying the down, correct?

Online CalhounLJ

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Re: enforcement question....2 changes of possession
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2017, 02:15:41 PM »
Exactly. As mentioned, the new series comment was used to explain clock status