Author Topic: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...  (Read 16005 times)

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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2018, 07:06:34 PM »
My scenario is a FG attempt, not a try. 
Which is all well and good, Al, but if K fouls before the kick has ended, the ball isn't in the defensive team's possession, and the ball is still live.
Again, I would argue that the spirit of the rules is that this is designed primarily for a punt play, which won't happen in OT, and only incidentally applies to a failed field goal attempt. But if a smart coach calls a time out to discuss with the referee that we should tack a foul during the failed FG attempt to end the series, I'm not sure (in the absence of an interpretation from my state or from Fed) we wouldn't habe to say he's right.

Is there a difference between a "punt play" and a "field goal try" other than the field goal try, IF SUCCESSFUL, scores 3 points?
 8-4  (Scrimmage Kicks), nor 8-4 (Field Goal) indicate a relevant difference (other than scoring).

NFHS 2-1-3 (Status of Ball) defines a loose ball as a pass, fumble or kick, without differentiating any further.

Overtime is simple DIFFERENT, the last sentence of "Resolved Tied Games" (pg 85) advises "PSK enforcement is not applicable in this procedure." leaving enforcement for ANY kick during OT as a "loose ball foul" enforcement.  The Down is ended, the series is ended, possession reverts to the receiving team, at the subsequent spot which would be the start of the previous defense's new OT possession.

You might politely tell the smart coach, "interesting thought, but NO".

Offline KWH

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2018, 08:59:27 PM »
What about these?

4th and 10 on the 50.
K kicks the ball, it's blocked at the line of scrimmage, punter recovers the ball behind the line of scrimmage

1. ... and intentionally throws the ball away.
2. ... and throws to receiver K2 who commits offensive pass interference. Ball is dropped.
3. ... and throws to receiver K2 who commits intentional offensive pass interference. Ball is dropped.
4. ... and K4 commits a 15-yard facemask on an R player on the line of scrimmage before the ball is thrown downfield to a receiver who drops the ball.

This is a scrimmage kick down, and K will not be the next to put the ball into play. Do the tack-ons apply? Does it matter in 1? Can I tack on the double foul in 3?

The kick ended when the punter recovers the ball, so any fouls after that are ABO, and not eligible to be tack-on fouls.
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Offline KWH

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2018, 09:02:11 PM »
4th and 10 on the K5. K leading 10-8 with :10 left.

K1's punt is blocked. He recovers the ball in his end zone, and intentionally throws the ball away under duress.

In prior years, whether the penalty is accepted or declined, it's a safety. Ball kicked by K from the 20.

Now, the penalty should be accepted, it's still a safety, but the ball is kicked by K from the 15. I guess we would give no options now, just automatically accept the penalty?

If the clock ran out on the play, would we still enforce a safety kick? I'd imagine that R would want a free play to try to score.... they could also fair catch the kick from the 15 and get yet another untimed down to kick a fair catch field goal?

The kick ended when the punter recovers the ball, so any fouls after that are ABO, and not eligible to be tack-on fouls.
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Offline bbeagle

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2018, 10:06:23 AM »
K 4th and 10 at their 5 with :05 left in 2nd quarter, last play of the half. Illegal formation flag at the snap.

K punter receives snap, kicks ball, it's blocked, goes out the back of the end zone at :00 on the clock.

R team kicks off in second half. Can they choose to tack on this penalty to the 2nd half kickoff?


Offline ncwingman

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2018, 11:45:38 AM »
K 4th and 10 at their 5 with :05 left in 2nd quarter, last play of the half. Illegal formation flag at the snap.

K punter receives snap, kicks ball, it's blocked, goes out the back of the end zone at :00 on the clock.

R team kicks off in second half. Can they choose to tack on this penalty to the 2nd half kickoff?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and vote No on this one.

3-3-4 lists the situations where fouls could be carried over and not having the period extended. "Succeeding spot enforcement" is not a global exception (only after a successful try or field goal). The period would have to be extended to have a succeeding spot on which to enforce the penalty -- K would free kick from the 15 after enforcement as an untimed down.

Offline js in sc

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2018, 01:17:33 PM »
K 4th and 10 at their 5 with :05 left in 2nd quarter, last play of the half. Illegal formation flag at the snap.

K punter receives snap, kicks ball, it's blocked, goes out the back of the end zone at :00 on the clock.

R team kicks off in second half. Can they choose to tack on this penalty to the 2nd half kickoff?
Correct me if I am wrong, but if R declines the penalty the result is a safety and the period is over.
If R accepts the penalty, the down is replayed from the 2 1/2 yard line. 
Can you accept the penalty and choose to take it at the succeeding spot in the 2nd half?

Offline VALJ

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2018, 03:53:37 PM »
Correct me if I am wrong, but if R declines the penalty the result is a safety and the period is over.
If R accepts the penalty, the down is replayed from the 2 1/2 yard line. 
Can you accept the penalty and choose to take it at the succeeding spot in the 2nd half?

No, because there are very specific limitations to when you can carry a foul over on a scoring play, and those apply to touchdowns, extra points, and field goals. I can't think of any situation by rule where you could carry a live ball penalty on a play that doesn't result in a TD, successful FG, or successful XP to the succeeding spot, short of a non-player or USC foul, for which the foul is always the succeeding spot. Or a DB foul after the play is over.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2018, 09:56:25 AM »
No, because there are very specific limitations to when you can carry a foul over on a scoring play, and those apply to touchdowns, extra points, and field goals. I can't think of any situation by rule where you could carry a live ball penalty on a play that doesn't result in a TD, successful FG, or successful XP to the succeeding spot, short of a non-player or USC foul, for which the foul is always the succeeding spot. Or a DB foul after the play is over.

3-3-3. A period shell be extended by an untimed down if one of the following occurred during a down in which time expires:
a. There was a foul by either team and the penalty is accepted. (With exceptions like UNS, non-player, etc. which don't apply here).

I don't see why that rule is ignored.
 

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2018, 10:03:25 AM »
3-3-3 is ignored in the play u posted because of 3-3-4.  The safety prevents the period from being extended.


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Offline ncwingman

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2018, 10:45:05 AM »
3-3-3 is ignored in the play u posted because of 3-3-4.  The safety prevents the period from being extended.


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3-3-4 only kicks in if the safety is due to the basic spot enforcement of the penalty. What is happening here is different in that the safety is the result of the play and the penalty is being enforced at the succeeding spot. Basic spot enforcement of the penalty would be from the previous spot, not resulting in a safety that would invoke 3-3-4.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2018, 10:50:06 AM »
Ok I’m confused. Which one of beagles two scenarios are we talking about? Because in the first play he posted both the spot of the foul and the spot of the enforcement is in the end zone making it a safety either way. In that one, 3-3-4 would apply because we won’t replay a down when a safety is involved, right?


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Offline ncwingman

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2018, 12:32:12 PM »
3-3-4 would apply because we won’t replay a down when a safety is involved, right?

That is oversimplifying the rule a little bit, and is complicated by the new tack on rule, which is the absurdity that we're all pointing out in this thread.

Beagle's First Situation -- During a scrimmage kick down during which time expires, K commits a foul in their own end zone. Result of the play is a safety.

Previous years -- R has the following options: a) Decline the foul and take the results of the play (a safety). Period ends since there is no accepted foul. b) Accept the foul, the enforcement of which is a safety due to the enforcement spot being ABO, in K's end zone. The period is not extended due to 3-3-4.

This year -- R has an additional option: c) Accept the results of the play and enforce the penalty from the succeeding spot. In this situation, the result of the play is also a safety BUT the safety was not a result of the enforcement of the foul (3-3-4(b)5: "... the penalty is accepted for fouls for which enforcement, by rule, result in a safety"). By rule, the succeeding spot enforcement of the foul is not the safety. Since this enforcement option does not trigger 3-3-4, the period must be extended to allow for a succeeding spot for enforcement purposes.

Beagle's Second Situation --  During a scrimmage kick down during which time expires, K commits a foul simultaneous with the snap. Result of the play is a safety.

In this situation, the only thing that is different is Option B. Accepting the foul with basic spot enforcement has the enforcement from the previous spot, which does not result in a safety, so now 3-3-4 is not triggered and the period would be extended. Situations A and C are still in play and the same outcome as previous.

The simplification of "We don't extend when a safety is involved" held previously because when a safety was involved previously it was either a) the result of the play (and you'd have to decline the foul in this situation) or b) the result of penalty enforcement (which always triggered 3-3-4), but that simplification falls apart because there is now a third option on scrimmage kick downs with succeeding spot enforcement.

Offline blandis

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2018, 12:40:53 AM »
10-4-2 Exception says the tack on applies to a Free Kick Down or Scrimmage Kick Down. No mention of a Try so this is a moot argument.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2018, 09:35:05 AM »
The simplification of "We don't extend when a safety is involved" held previously because when a safety was involved previously it was either a) the result of the play (and you'd have to decline the foul in this situation) or b) the result of penalty enforcement (which always triggered 3-3-4), but that simplification falls apart because there is now a third option on scrimmage kick downs with succeeding spot enforcement.

Exactly what I was alluding to with the safety play.

Can we tack-on the yardage after a safety when B is next to kick off? (Would only occur at the end of a half or end of the game)



Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2018, 09:36:29 AM »
10-4-2 Exception says the tack on applies to a Free Kick Down or Scrimmage Kick Down. No mention of a Try so this is a moot argument.

2-24-4 defines a "scrimmage kick is any kick from in or behind the NZ during a scrimmage down."

8-3-1 concludes, "This (the try) involves a scrimmage down which is neither numbered or timed."

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2018, 09:44:24 AM »
Exactly what I was alluding to with the safety play.

Can we tack-on the yardage after a safety when B is next to kick off? (Would only occur at the end of a half or end of the game)
No, a penalty that results in a safety is considered penalty enough. A penalty that results in a safety is not afforded an untimed down as all the kicker would need to do is kick the ball off the tee with his big toe and pick it up to end the period - not a wise idea if it ended the 1st or 3rd period, though. :)

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2018, 02:37:05 PM »
That is oversimplifying the rule a little bit, and is complicated by the new tack on rule, which is the absurdity that we're all pointing out in this thread.

Beagle's First Situation -- During a scrimmage kick down during which time expires, K commits a foul in their own end zone. Result of the play is a safety.

Previous years -- R has the following options: a) Decline the foul and take the results of the play (a safety). Period ends since there is no accepted foul. b) Accept the foul, the enforcement of which is a safety due to the enforcement spot being ABO, in K's end zone. The period is not extended due to 3-3-4.

This year -- R has an additional option: c) Accept the results of the play and enforce the penalty from the succeeding spot. In this situation, the result of the play is also a safety BUT the safety was not a result of the enforcement of the foul (3-3-4(b)5: "... the penalty is accepted for fouls for which enforcement, by rule, result in a safety"). By rule, the succeeding spot enforcement of the foul is not the safety. Since this enforcement option does not trigger 3-3-4, the period must be extended to allow for a succeeding spot for enforcement purposes.

Beagle's Second Situation --  During a scrimmage kick down during which time expires, K commits a foul simultaneous with the snap. Result of the play is a safety.

In this situation, the only thing that is different is Option B. Accepting the foul with basic spot enforcement has the enforcement from the previous spot, which does not result in a safety, so now 3-3-4 is not triggered and the period would be extended. Situations A and C are still in play and the same outcome as previous.

The simplification of "We don't extend when a safety is involved" held previously because when a safety was involved previously it was either a) the result of the play (and you'd have to decline the foul in this situation) or b) the result of penalty enforcement (which always triggered 3-3-4), but that simplification falls apart because there is now a third option on scrimmage kick downs with succeeding spot enforcement.

I agree it was a bad choice of words. I was trying to read, post, and eat at the same time... but I'm also pretty confident that by the time they get this kicking exception ironed out, the statement will still be true. If there is a safety involved on the last play of either half, we will not extend the period for an untimed down.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2018, 02:55:52 PM »
No, a penalty that results in a safety is considered penalty enough. A penalty that results in a safety is not afforded an untimed down as all the kicker would need to do is kick the ball off the tee with his big toe and pick it up to end the period - not a wise idea if it ended the 1st or 3rd period, though. :)

This is not a penalty that results in a safety though.

The play ended with a safety and there was a penalty for something else.

Original play:
K 4th and 10 from K5, illegal formation flag for not enough men on the line. K punts, punt is blocked. Kicker recovers and is downed in the end zone. This is the last play of the 2nd quarter.

We can't extend the period, because there is a rule saying we can't do that on a safety. Fine. But the NEXT play will be the kickoff to start the 3rd quarter. R is kicking off.

This seems to match all the requirements of the tack-on foul - scrimmage kick, K fouls before the kick is over, R next to put the ball into play.


« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 02:59:05 PM by bbeagle »

Offline red viking

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2018, 04:02:22 PM »
Wouldn't K be the one putting the ball in play though if they were tackled in their own end zone (kicking off from their own 20)?

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2018, 04:08:20 PM »
Wouldn't K be the one putting the ball in play though if they were tackled in their own end zone (kicking off from their own 20)?

This is the last play of the half. There is :00 on the clock at the end of the second quarter. Therefore, K does not kick from their 20. The half is over.

K has it's choice for the second half, and chose to receive. Therefore, R is kicking the ball next.


Offline red viking

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2018, 04:10:36 PM »
This is the last play of the half. There is :00 on the clock at the end of the second quarter. Therefore, K does not kick from their 20. The half is over.

K has it's choice for the second half, and chose to receive. Therefore, R is kicking the ball next.

OK. Thanks for clarifying. Yes, they are next to put the ball in play but not as a result of the kicking play. I think that is the intent of the rule even if it isn't explicitely stated.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2018, 07:15:16 AM »
OK. Thanks for clarifying. Yes, they are next to put the ball in play but not as a result of the kicking play. I think that is the intent of the rule even if it isn't explicitely stated.

Yes, it IS a kicking play. K punted the ball and it was blocked.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2018, 08:17:45 AM »
I think he meant the fact that R is the next to put the ball in play has nothing to do with the kicking play itself, but instead is based on the assumption that K will want to receive the ball after the half. Which throws another wrench in this argument. If that decision is not known at the time of the foul, how can you make a determination as to the application of the kicking exception? What if k decides to kick off after the half?

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2018, 08:39:09 AM »
IMHO, if the half ends on a kicking play foul by K that qualifies for a tack-on, the options would be :

(1) Penalty enforced at succeeding spot, R's ball w/untimed down;

(2) Penalty enforced at previous spot, K's ball w/untimed down;

(3) R declines penalty, half ends, band plays, cheerleaders prance, zebras gnaw on unsold hotdogs at snack-shack;

(4) 2nd half starts as a 2nd half does, remember guys, only USC or DBPFs would carry over to the 2nd half.

PS: Talking about #3 has brought on hunger...time for some sardine waffles eAt& eAt& eAt& eAt& eAt& (5 man crew) !

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Let's throw a real curveball with the tack-on...
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2018, 09:00:26 AM »
The waffles were great, our cat enjoyed them , too.

Something to ponder :

As K is kicking off the start the 2nd half, are not they the team that is putting the ball in play  ??? ??? ??? ?

As R will be the team to touch the ball with something other than one's foot, would R be the next to put in play  ??? ??? ??? ?

PS: To Yankee Al - a 10 game lead may be all they need (private joke only understood by those of Red Sox Nation ;) ).
.