Author Topic: Late Substitution by A - must we allow B to substitute  (Read 4150 times)

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Offline zhntr

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Late Substitution by A - must we allow B to substitute
« on: September 01, 2018, 09:26:37 PM »
NFHS rules. A substitutes with 10 seconds left on the play clock. Is there rule support to give B a chance to substitute?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 09:51:56 PM by zhntr »

Offline BIG DON

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Re: Late Substitution by A - must we allow B to substitute
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2018, 10:04:40 PM »
Nothing in NFHS states that b must be given a chance to substitute
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 10:53:07 PM by BIG DON »
do or do not there is no try

Offline Stinterp

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Re: Late Substitution by A - must we allow B to substitute
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2018, 08:56:29 AM »
Not under NFHS rules

Offline Curious

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Re: Late Substitution by A - must we allow B to substitute
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2018, 01:24:54 PM »
NFHS rules. A substitutes with 10 seconds left on the play clock. Is there rule support to give B a chance to substitute?

Take a look at 2018 POE (pace of Play and Timing Issues).  Second paragraph.  I'll grant you the verbage doesn't rise to the level to which the NCAA rules describe; but it is my contention that it means basically the same thing (assuming the D substitutes "immediately").  Especially as the 40-second play clock adoption gains momentum, IMHO this will become more important...but, right now I'm going to interpret it as the right thing to do   

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Late Substitution by A - must we allow B to substitute
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2018, 08:06:43 AM »
Take a look at 2018 POE (pace of Play and Timing Issues).  Second paragraph.  I'll grant you the verbage doesn't rise to the level to which the NCAA rules describe; but it is my contention that it means basically the same thing (assuming the D substitutes "immediately").  Especially as the 40-second play clock adoption gains momentum, IMHO this will become more important...but, right now I'm going to interpret it as the right thing to do   

(It’s actually the second sentence, but...)  In my mind, this does NOT mean that B gets an automatic chance to match up after a late substitution by A.  It means that the RFP should come in a consistent manner even if A wants to run a “NASCAR” or “hurry-up” tempo.  YMMV

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Late Substitution by A - must we allow B to substitute
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2018, 10:25:42 AM »
Take a look at 2018 POE (pace of Play and Timing Issues).   Especially as the 40-second play clock adoption gains momentum, IMHO this will become more important...but, right now I'm going to interpret it as the right thing to do   

In all honesty, does the absence of a "40 second clock" cause ANY problems, than an effective Referee has been unable to easily and consistently avoid, for the last 100, or so, years?  Is it really needed, or something we've been told must be necessary to appear "up-to-date"?

For a game, so popular to attract participants from age 8/10 - 50+, of intense physical contact and complexity, it seems appropriate that significant differences, in both the participant maturity and developed skills be designed and incorporated in specific rule sets, to accommodate those inherent, unique differences, and intended to minimize and/or avoid problems, at their respective levels.

The NFHS 2018-19 "Game Officials Manual Points of Emphasis" (pgs 86-87) Suggests the following, "While regularity and consistency is the responsibility of every game official on the field, the Referee likely has the most effect on this procedure. Situations occur such as the R being overly patient for a QB receiving the play call from the coach at the sideline or other crew members unevenly hurrying to retrieve the ball as time declines near the end of a half.

Such practices, as inadvertent as they may be, project an inappropriate attitude of bias towards one team, or the other and additionally subtract from the fairness of the game".  It then goes on to review the recommended procedures to follow for "Marking the ball RFP", which are intended to minimize, or avoid, these problems..

More advanced levels of the game have determined that an ability to match an opponents substituting may be appropriate to prevent creation of a specific, relevant and intentional disadvantage. 
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 10:35:02 AM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline prab

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Re: Late Substitution by A - must we allow B to substitute
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2018, 10:37:54 AM »
I think that most of us at some time have had to explain to a coach that "out side the tackle box" is not an NFHS rule and therefore does not excuse intentional grounding, or that a pass being "uncatchable" is not an NFHS rule and therefore does not excuse DPI.

How then do we explain enforcing a "defense gets a chance to match a late offensive substitution"  which is also not an NFHS rule?

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Late Substitution by A - must we allow B to substitute
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2018, 11:00:40 AM »
It means that the RFP should come in a consistent manner even if A wants to run a “NASCAR” or “hurry-up” tempo.  YMMV

This makes for an interesting pregame discussion with coaches who say “We want to line up and go ASAP”.  I explain that my tempo is to blow the RFP 12-14 seconds after the ball is dead and they usually grumble about that. I’ve learned (the hard way) to add that it might be quicker on a short run right up the middle. I also add that in the last two minutes of each half we will hustle, but not race, to spot the ball.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Late Substitution by A - must we allow B to substitute
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2018, 11:24:46 AM »
IMO, the recent obsession with the 40 stems from a desire to mimick college ball. Because they do it some in hs want to do it. I see no reason to institute it. My crew has had 3 ballgames this year and the longest was 2:25. A consistent, timely pace is welcomed by all. I’m also of the opinion that the statement in the POE refers to just that- a fair pace that allows both teams the opportunity to sub from the time the ball became dead until the RFP. IMO the :40 actually prevents that.


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Offline scrounge

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Re: Late Substitution by A - must we allow B to substitute
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2018, 11:55:17 AM »
How then do we explain enforcing a "defense gets a chance to match a late offensive substitution"  which is also not an NFHS rule?

Fairly easily, in the same manner. "That's a college rule, coach, not a high school rule"

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Late Substitution by A - must we allow B to substitute
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2018, 02:13:20 PM »
Fairly easily, in the same manner. "That's a college rule, coach, not a high school rule"

BINGO, short, accurate and to the point.

Offline prab

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Re: Late Substitution by A - must we allow B to substitute
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2018, 04:36:43 PM »
Fairly easily, in the same manner. "That's a college rule, coach, not a high school rule"

Either I expressed myself extremely poorly in my post, or you have grossly misinterpreted what I was trying to say!

My question was, if you don't enforce the first two because they are not NFHS rules, how can you justify enforcing the third one which is not an NFHS rule either. 

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Late Substitution by A - must we allow B to substitute
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2018, 05:25:21 PM »
Either I expressed myself extremely poorly in my post, or you have grossly misinterpreted what I was trying to say!

My question was, if you don't enforce the first two because they are not NFHS rules, how can you justify enforcing the third one which is not an NFHS rule either.

Actually, the "answer" works equally well for all 3 issues.  As for the substitution, NFHS: 3-7-1, allows for substituting "any number of eligible substitutes"..."between downs". as long as they don't violate any of the provisions/requirements stated in 3-7-1 through 6.

As long as "B" successfully completed their substitution (within the 10 seconds suggested in the sample play) there wouldn't be a problem, but NFHS rules do not allow for deviation from those parameters or special consideration (such as delaying the RFP) to allow for a substitution to take effect for either team.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 05:27:11 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline scrounge

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Re: Late Substitution by A - must we allow B to substitute
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2018, 08:41:39 PM »
Either I expressed myself extremely poorly in my post, or you have grossly misinterpreted what I was trying to say!

My question was, if you don't enforce the first two because they are not NFHS rules, hosw can you justify enforcing the third one which is not an NFHS rule either.

Oh wow, yea i totally misread it as asking how to explain not enforcing. My apologies. Stupid tiny phone screen.