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81

National Federation Discussion / Re: Fair Catch

« Last post by Ralph Damren on March 31, 2024, 06:19:56 AM »

Since a player on R made a fair catch signal, they can recover, but not advance. However, it is not a "fair catch".

Here's another good study question for your rules clinics this year: During a scrimmage kick, R88 signals for a fair catch and a) completes the catch or b) has the ball hit the ground before recovery. How are situations A and B different? Meaning, what rules apply or options does R have after the fair catch that don't apply in situation B? The obvious albatross is that R couldn't elect to put the ball in play with a free kick in B, but what else is more likely to apply?

The choice of where to spot the ball. We usually spot it in the middle, like we do on PATs, with the captain having the option to request it moved.

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National Federation Discussion / Re: Clinc Conversation Topics

« Last post by Ralph Damren on March 31, 2024, 06:15:40 AM »

Another good one is on the coin toss, always ask if they want to D-E-F-E-R first. Asking : "Kick, recieve, defend a goal or defer" can cause some kids to say :"Yea, we'll kickoff" when told by coach to ask to defer. Some 'silent choices' are:
 (1) After a touchback, spot the ball in the middle unless asked.
 (2) On a PAT, spot the ball in the middle unless asked.
 (3) After a score, assume the scored upon team wants to recieve unless asked.

There may be more, but it's still early in the morning for me. 

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National Federation Discussion / Clinc Conversation Topics

« Last post by ncwingman on March 30, 2024, 07:42:38 PM »

I've been trying to think of good topics for rules clinics for the upcoming year, and another thread gave me an idea that I'd like to hear if anybody else has suggestions on.

What are common situations where we, as officials, often assume what a team will choose to do but they actually have options that are rarely utilized?

For instance, after a fair catch, R can designate where (between the hash marks) the ball will be put into play. I would say 99% of the time, as a back judge, I mark the spot of the recovery (or nearest hash) and we play from there. However, the coach could say we want to play from the other hash, or the middle of the field, or wherever... but we never really ask. I would also say that 99% of the time, the coach is unaware that he's allowed to ask... but that's a different point.

So where else are we kind of set in a routine, but we should be more aware of options available to a team?

84

National Federation Discussion / Re: Holder question

« Last post by AlUpstateNY on March 30, 2024, 09:36:04 AM »

By "Rule" (Traffic Law) it's a violation to drive 66, in a zone with a posted 65 mile limit. As Officials, it's doubtful any of us would ever violate that requirement intentionally, but if we did who would likely be focused on that violation?

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National Federation Discussion / Re: Holder question

« Last post by Ralph Damren on March 30, 2024, 08:13:01 AM »

Just so I'm sure I've got all this... By Rule^TM, 1) Roughing the Kicker can be called whenever a player kicks the ball, 2) Roughing the Holder can be called whenever a player holds the ball, 3) Roughing the Snapper can only be called based on the actions/position of the Kicker and (optionally) Holder?

In reality, a) I doubt any R linebacker will see the holder pick his knee up and realize he's allowed to charge into the snapper and b) if he does, it could still be a personal foul for unnecessary roughness.

Worse still, team comes out for the try, holder puts the block down and then sees the condition of the field -- "Ew, that's muddy... I don't want to put my knee in that..."

Yes, that is the 'BY RULE' rule.The complexcity we made with SKF wasn't my idea, but I'm only 1 out of 51. I agree that linebackers are probably watching the ball and not the holder's knee. Holders are often the backup QB and wantto get their uniform/knee muddy as a badge of playing  .

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National Federation Discussion / Re: Holder question

« Last post by ncwingman on March 30, 2024, 07:48:57 AM »

Just so I'm sure I've got all this... By Rule^TM, 1) Roughing the Kicker can be called whenever a player kicks the ball, 2) Roughing the Holder can be called whenever a player holds the ball, 3) Roughing the Snapper can only be called based on the actions/position of the Kicker and (optionally) Holder?

In reality, a) I doubt any R linebacker will see the holder pick his knee up and realize he's allowed to charge into the snapper and b) if he does, it could still be a personal foul for unnecessary roughness.

Worse still, team comes out for the try, holder puts the block down and then sees the condition of the field -- "Ew, that's muddy... I don't want to put my knee in that..."

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National Federation Discussion / Re: Fair Catch

« Last post by ncwingman on March 30, 2024, 07:23:51 AM »

A more challenging question is; what if R recovers it behind the neutral zone and advances it?

Since a player on R made a fair catch signal, they can recover, but not advance. However, it is not a "fair catch".

Here's another good study question for your rules clinics this year: During a scrimmage kick, R88 signals for a fair catch and a) completes the catch or b) has the ball hit the ground before recovery. How are situations A and B different? Meaning, what rules apply or options does R have after the fair catch that don't apply in situation B? The obvious albatross is that R couldn't elect to put the ball in play with a free kick in B, but what else is more likely to apply?

88

National Federation Discussion / Re: Any Movement Toward...

« Last post by Ralph Damren on March 30, 2024, 06:40:20 AM »

I have not seen any movement in that direction. Rule 1-7 (the state's rights rule) allows IR in post season games. Maine doesn't....does yours ?

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National Federation Discussion / Re: Holder question

« Last post by Ralph Damren on March 30, 2024, 06:34:35 AM »

Also along with no snapper protection you can not use the numbering exception.  that also has to be in a scrimmage kick formation

The holder is still the holdert and can be roughed, BUT if a knee isn't touching earth it isn't SKF. If in pre-game meeting, coach informs of a trick play from the holder in a 'catcher's crouch'  then inform him that there will be no snapper protection @ & numbering exception. This will usually kill the use of such. Remember:
 (1) To be in SKF,. the punter  needs to be 10 yards behind LOS;
 (2) To kick on an earlier down, only the snapper can have # exception;
 (3) on such a 'quick-kick', if  kicker is hit, we need to read -if R was trying to tackle = , if trying to block kick = 
 (4) a holder can take snap w/knee on ground THEN rise and do whatever.

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National Federation Discussion / Re: Fair Catch

« Last post by Ralph Damren on March 30, 2024, 06:18:59 AM »

I thought yall all used K and R for kicking play scenarios, not A and B.

So this statement is what got me to thinking about this, because it seems to be in conflict (as I understand it, without having an NFHS rulebook to reference.)

If R's FC signal negates any possibility of a return by R, even if caught/recovered behind the NZ, why doesn't the same restriction apply to K? Is the FC signal ignored, if recovered by R behind the NZ? (I don't think so, just wondering out loud.)

It just seems a bit unbalanced that R has no chance to advance the ball and K does... I can't think of any other scenario where restrictions like this apply to one team but not the other.

R's signal for FC tells K "We'll take the ball w/o any return. If R muffs the FC, R can recover BUT not advance. K can recover but can't advance a muff unless the ball has bounced behind the LOS, where they can advance. The fair catch was called by R, which restricts R from advancing.