Author Topic: Game day tester......  (Read 15973 times)

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Offline Ralph Damren

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Game day tester......
« on: November 01, 2019, 09:22:45 AM »
How would you handle the following :

(1) LOS 50, 3 & 8;
(2) A1 is tackled by PFFM @ B's 42  ^flag;
(3) A1 then announces : "B1 is a @#$%^&* "  ^flag
(4) after penalties enforced, A's coach loudly questions all  z^ z^ z^ z^ z^ (5-man crew) eyesight.  :puke: ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag

Down ,distance and announcement over PA (you're mic'ed)

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Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2019, 09:52:30 AM »
Assuming that no announcement was made for just the first penalty:

There are multiple fouls on the play. 

Personal foul, facemask, by player X, 15 yards from the end of the run. (ball would be spotted at B27)

Unsportsmanlike conduct, player A1.  15 yard penalty.  (this would put the ball back at  the B42, 1st and 10)

*assuming ball was spotted right now*

Unsportsmanlike conduct, Team A.  15 yard penalty. (this puts the ball at the A47, 1st and 25.)

Ball will be spotted on the A47 1st and 25.'
« Last Edit: November 01, 2019, 10:56:46 AM by dammitbobby »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2019, 09:52:58 AM »
“We have multiple fouls on the play. The first fouls is a personal foul facemask against the defense. That penalty is enforced from the end of the run, resulting in a first down for The offense. After the play, we have an unsportsmanlike foul against the offense. 15yd penalty from the succeeding spot, 1st and 10. After the enforcement, we have a dead ball unsportsmanlike penalty against A. 15yd penalty from the succeeding spot. First down and 10 for A.” Assuming of course the last foul was before the RFP.


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Offline PABJNR

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2019, 10:06:53 AM »
"There were multiple fouls on the play.  During the play, personal foul facemask against the defense. That 15 yard penalty will be enforced from the end of the run and will result in a first down.  Following the play, there were two unsportsmanlike conduct penalties against the offense. Both of these 15 yard penalties will be enforced.  Following enforcemnet of these penalties, the offesnse will have the ball, 1st and 10.

1st and 10 from A43, 25 second playclock, RFP on my chop.

Calhoun, consider not announcing "we have" and replace with there were.  I had a senior official mention to me once, it just sounds better to me.  Just mentioned for consideration.
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2019, 10:19:28 AM »
Duly noted. Thanks


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2019, 10:21:11 AM »
Duly noted. Thanks. I’m a seminary graduate used to writing academic papers. They frown on the phrase “there were.”  Of course, they also frown on writing in first person as well. Thanks again it’s great advice.


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Offline Morningrise

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2019, 11:50:28 AM »
Lots of good practices so far.

I always state up front that there will be multiple fouls in the announcement.

I like to say "X yard penalty from the {spot of the foul | previous spot | end of the run | end of the kick}" for live-ball fouls, but for dead-ball fouls I just say "X yard penalty."

Always separate live-ball from dead-ball fouls in the announcement, because they aren't offsetting and sometimes it matters for explaining why one team is getting a first down suddenly.

Good to clarify that it's 1/10 not 1/25.

One thing I haven't seen yet is - You have to give the number of a player committing a UNS. I always say {offense | defense} before, not after, the uniform number.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2019, 11:59:47 AM »
Lots of good practices so far.

I always state up front that there will be multiple fouls in the announcement.

I like to say "X yard penalty from the {spot of the foul | previous spot | end of the run | end of the kick}" for live-ball fouls, but for dead-ball fouls I just say "X yard penalty."

Always separate live-ball from dead-ball fouls in the announcement, because they aren't offsetting and sometimes it matters for explaining why one team is getting a first down suddenly.

Good to clarify that it's 1/10 not 1/25.

One thing I haven't seen yet is - You have to give the number of a player committing a UNS. I always say {offense | defense} before, not after, the uniform number.
Not according to NFHS. As I understand it, announcing the number is optional but not required.


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Offline HLinNC

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2019, 01:32:59 PM »
You have to give the number of a player committing a UNS.

The 2018-19 manual states "The number of the player who committed the foul may be announced."  As I learned in law class, big difference between may and shall.  NC still prohibits it as best I recall.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2019, 07:25:52 AM »
Very good job  aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd   guys. I  had one similar to this several years ago. IMHO, first clarify that B's PFFM creates a first down for A. If not mic'ed you may want to send  sNiCkErS the umpire  sNiCkErS on a 15 yard journey from the end of the run, signal penalty followed by first down. Then return to EOR ( you can mark it with bean bag) and enforce the USCs and set the stakes. IF the stakes had already been set, it's safe to assume that ball was signaled RFP when A's coach spouted off which would result in 1st & 25.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2019, 07:39:33 AM »
Duly noted. Thanks. I’m a seminary graduate used to writing academic papers. They frown on the phrase “there were.”  Of course, they also frown on writing in first person as well. Thanks again it’s great advice.

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Lets put it in super awkward scientific writing style -- third person, past tense, passive voice:

"Upon the end of run was administered a 15 yard penalty due to a personal foul for grasping the facemask by the defense"

Offline bossman72

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2019, 08:24:44 AM »
You have to give the number of a player committing a UNS.

The 2018-19 manual states "The number of the player who committed the foul may be announced."  As I learned in law class, big difference between may and shall.  NC still prohibits it as best I recall.

We are not allowed to announce numbers in PA.  Why?  I don't know.

Offline PABJNR

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2019, 10:39:40 AM »
They don’t want any feelings hurt until basketball season perhaps?


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2019, 12:22:48 PM »
Lets put it in super awkward scientific writing style -- third person, past tense, passive voice:

"Upon the end of run was administered a 15 yard penalty due to a personal foul for grasping the facemask by the defense"
Lol. Believe it or not, that reads normal.


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Offline ncwingman

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2019, 01:08:44 PM »
NC still prohibits it as best I recall.

I was just reminded of an "incident" in a game earlier this season. Home team is winning and driving to run out the clock late in the 4th (like <4 minutes). They get into a 4th and short situation and line up to go for it -- everybody and their mother knows it's a hard count, no snap, then a timeout.

Of course, it "works" and a defender jumps across the neutral zone.

The PA announcer can clearly see it was #55 for the visitors, so as the penalty is marked off he announces, "And let's all thank #55, Steve Smith, for that first down!" (The white hat has no microphone, so he's not announcing anything publicly) There was no obvious response by any players or coaches, but it really rubbed me the wrong way. If the visiting coach had raised a stink about it, I would have had to agree with him -- not sure what I could do, but I would agree with him.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2019, 01:17:19 PM »
The 2018-19 manual states "The number of the player who committed the foul may be announced."  As I learned in law class, big difference between may and shall.  NC still prohibits it as best I recall.

Why does announcing the number of a fouling player seem so important?  Granted, specifically advising the respective Head Coach of the identity of the player committing a foul, offering the opportunity for remedial corrective attention makes sense, but what purpose, or benefit, does identifying a player, who has made a mistake, to the general public in attendance, accomplish? 

Offline bossman72

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2019, 01:29:25 PM »
Why does announcing the number of a fouling player seem so important?  Granted, specifically advising the respective Head Coach of the identity of the player committing a foul, offering the opportunity for remedial corrective attention makes sense, but what purpose, or benefit, does identifying a player, who has made a mistake, to the general public in attendance, accomplish? 

Informational purposes for coaches, fans in attendance, press box personnel, and media.  Eliminates confusion on certain situations and lets the media piece together what happened if there is a TV game.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2019, 01:54:13 PM »
Why does announcing the number of a fouling player seem so important?  Granted, specifically advising the respective Head Coach of the identity of the player committing a foul, offering the opportunity for remedial corrective attention makes sense, but what purpose, or benefit, does identifying a player, who has made a mistake, to the general public in attendance, accomplish?
IMHO, it sounds more certain than "someone was holding"  ;D. Several years ago, a play ended with a racial slur uttered by the defenders. I tossed  ^flag, called time and requested their coach on the field. I informed him of what I had heard and asked him to address his team that it wouldn't be tolerated. He peered at his team and said : " 'Bubba', 'Tugboat' and 'Lefty', COME WITH ME  >:( ". A couple of plays later , Tugboat & Lefty returned - Bubba wasn't seen again. When the game ended, I was approached by their coach (who lost) and he said : "Thanks, ref, for allowing me to teach life lessons. The guilty player confessed, which allowed his two buddies to play. That word will never be heard from my team again."

Moral of story : Coaches usually know the potential troublemakers and the like. If you can confirm it, it gives him more ammo to take action.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2019, 02:31:48 PM »
Absolutely agree, sharing pertinent information and details with a Coach can be beneficial to the overall management and control of a team, and a game. However, WE ARE NOT responsible for sharing, otherwise non-essential details, especially those of a potentially critical, player personal nature, with "fans in attendance, press box personnel, and media".

Should " media (believe it necessary to) piece together what happened if there is a TV game, they have appropriate resources and contacts, aside from game officials, to develop those details.

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2019, 03:08:25 PM »
I was just reminded of an "incident" in a game earlier this season. Home team is winning and driving to run out the clock late in the 4th (like <4 minutes). They get into a 4th and short situation and line up to go for it -- everybody and their mother knows it's a hard count, no snap, then a timeout.

Of course, it "works" and a defender jumps across the neutral zone.

The PA announcer can clearly see it was #55 for the visitors, so as the penalty is marked off he announces, "And let's all thank #55, Steve Smith, for that first down!" (The white hat has no microphone, so he's not announcing anything publicly) There was no obvious response by any players or coaches, but it really rubbed me the wrong way. If the visiting coach had raised a stink about it, I would have had to agree with him -- not sure what I could do, but I would agree with him.

that would rub me the wrong way too and if I were the referee I would ask that the p.a. announcer be removed from the press box and not start the game until that has happened. 

Offline brettjr2005

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2019, 03:32:21 PM »
Absolutely agree, sharing pertinent information and details with a Coach can be beneficial to the overall management and control of a team, and a game. However, WE ARE NOT responsible for sharing, otherwise non-essential details, especially those of a potentially critical, player personal nature, with "fans in attendance, press box personnel, and media".

Should " media (believe it necessary to) piece together what happened if there is a TV game, they have appropriate resources and contacts, aside from game officials, to develop those details.

In my experience, it just makes everything easier. You don't have to relay the number across the field to the coach, it sounds more like "what we hear on Saturday and Sunday" which gives us more legitimacy in the eyes of the players, coaches, and fans, and it comes across as more certain and exact to announce that "we saw this specific guy do this bad thing" as opposed to "someone on that team did this bad thing."

 

Offline Magician

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2019, 04:57:51 PM »
In my experience, it just makes everything easier. You don't have to relay the number across the field to the coach, it sounds more like "what we hear on Saturday and Sunday" which gives us more legitimacy in the eyes of the players, coaches, and fans, and it comes across as more certain and exact to announce that "we saw this specific guy do this bad thing" as opposed to "someone on that team did this bad thing."

If someone is keeping a penalty report for the crew it makes it easier for them to get it as well. There really is no compelling reason to NOT do it other than we haven't in the past.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2019, 08:00:15 PM »
In my experience, it just makes everything easier. You don't have to relay the number across the field to the coach, it sounds more like "what we hear on Saturday and Sunday" which gives us more legitimacy in the eyes of the players, coaches, and fans, and it comes across as more certain and exact to announce that "we saw this specific guy do this bad thing" as opposed to "someone on that team did this bad thing."

You might consider, NFHS games are usually played before a predominantly LOCAL audience, many of whom may be personally familiar with players, as opposed to those who attend "Saturday & Sunday" games, and have no compelling, or constructive, interest or need to know the identity of which student athlete is guilty of making each mistake. 

If personal legitimacy is a serious personal concern, public exposure of player mistakes is not likely to eliminate that concern, either for players, coaches or fans (although, what "fans" conclude is, or at least should be, beyond our relevant concerns.)  Although as previously suggested, identifying the guilty player to his Head Coach, often has beneficial remedial instructive value.   

Achieving a perception of certainty or confidence, by players and/or coaches, that the "Call made" was the correct call, is earned far more by consistent performance than publicly announcing which player may be responsible for each mistake. 

 

Offline Magician

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2019, 10:58:55 PM »
You might consider, NFHS games are usually played before a predominantly LOCAL audience, many of whom may be personally familiar with players, as opposed to those who attend "Saturday & Sunday" games, and have no compelling, or constructive, interest or need to know the identity of which student athlete is guilty of making each mistake. 

If personal legitimacy is a serious personal concern, public exposure of player mistakes is not likely to eliminate that concern, either for players, coaches or fans (although, what "fans" conclude is, or at least should be, beyond our relevant concerns.)  Although as previously suggested, identifying the guilty player to his Head Coach, often has beneficial remedial instructive value.   

Achieving a perception of certainty or confidence, by players and/or coaches, that the "Call made" was the correct call, is earned far more by consistent performance than publicly announcing which player may be responsible for each mistake. 

Let me guess, you were opposed to replacing leather helmets with hard, plastic helmets. You seem to oppose every possible change to the rules and come up with wordy, highlighted, italicized explanations that ultimate say "I don't like change."

Offline PABJNR

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Re: Game day tester......
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2019, 05:15:24 AM »
You might consider, NFHS games are usually played before a predominantly LOCAL audience, many of whom may be personally familiar with players, as opposed to those who attend "Saturday & Sunday" games, and have no compelling, or constructive, interest or need to know the identity of which student athlete is guilty of making each mistake. 

If personal legitimacy is a serious personal concern, public exposure of player mistakes is not likely to eliminate that concern, either for players, coaches or fans (although, what "fans" conclude is, or at least should be, beyond our relevant concerns.)  Although as previously suggested, identifying the guilty player to his Head Coach, often has beneficial remedial instructive value.   

Achieving a perception of certainty or confidence, by players and/or coaches, that the "Call made" was the correct call, is earned far more by consistent performance than publicly announcing which player may be responsible for each mistake. 

 
Until you get to basketball season, then announce away.


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