Author Topic: Penalties during punt  (Read 3932 times)

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Offline Derek Teigen

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Penalties during punt
« on: December 27, 2018, 08:02:57 PM »
I was wondering if penalties during a punt are treated as penalties during a change of possession if their are penalties on both teams.

The situation I am wondering about is if we have a roughing (15 yard) the punter but also a personal foul against the kicking team.

Does it matter when the foul against the kicking team  occurred and how would they be enforced?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Penalties during punt
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2018, 04:31:40 AM »
In certain cases PSK and the new tack-on provisions would allow R to keep the ball after a foul instead of having to rekick. But not in the case you presented, because the foul by R doesn’t qualify for PSK. Read the requirements for PSK.
Also, because R also fouled during the down, the tack on provision for fouls by K doesn’t apply either. In this case the fouls would offset and we would replay the down.
Unless of course the personal foul by K was dead-ball. Then we would mark both off. Live-ball first- give A 15 and auto first down, then back them up 15 for the dead ball personal foul, 1 & 10.

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« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 04:35:51 AM by CalhounLJ »

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Penalties during punt
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2018, 07:10:53 AM »
Unless of course the personal foul by K was dead-ball. Then we would mark both off. Live-ball first- give A 15 and auto first down, then back them up 15 for the dead ball personal foul, 1 & 10.
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Would you actually march of the penalties or simply spot the ball at the previous spot and announce the penalties?  Something line RTK against team B, 15 yds and automatic 1st down, DB-PF against team A, 15 yds.  1st down team A at the previous spot.
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Offline bossman72

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Re: Penalties during punt
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2018, 08:26:29 AM »
I was wondering if penalties during a punt are treated as penalties during a change of possession if their are penalties on both teams.

The situation I am wondering about is if we have a roughing (15 yard) the punter but also a personal foul against the kicking team.

Does it matter when the foul against the kicking team  occurred and how would they be enforced?


If both fouls are before the change of possession, it's an automatic offset.  The only exception is if R's foul is a post-scrimmage kick foul (PSK).  This means that it is treated as if it had happened after possession changed (after the kick ends).

Look at the definition of PSK to grasp the full rule, but the essence of the rule is that if the foul by R is part of the punt rush, it's previous spot enforcement.  If it's part of the punt coverage, it's PSK.  That's what the rule is trying to say.

In your example you have Roughing.  This is previous spot enforcement since it was part of the punt rush.
If K's personal foul occurs before the end of the kick, these would automatically offset.
If K's personal foul occurs during the return, that actually would offset too, since R's foul is previous spot and not PSK.  R did not get the ball with clean hands and K also fouled, therefore we have an offset.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Penalties during punt
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2018, 10:21:34 AM »
Would you actually march of the penalties or simply spot the ball at the previous spot and announce the penalties?  Something line RTK against team B, 15 yds and automatic 1st down, DB-PF against team A, 15 yds.  1st down team A at the previous spot.
I was taught in this situation to leave the chains in place, go to previous spot, signal the roughing penalty, mark it off, move the down box to the succeeding spot, signal first down. Then, signal the dead ball foul, mark it off, move the down box and set the chains, 1st and 10. I’m sure you could get by with just spotting the ball at the previous spot in most cases, but this way provides a visual image as to what happened.


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Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Penalties during punt
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2018, 10:30:59 AM »
thank you Bossman and Calhoun. 


I looked up PSK.  My understanding is if R fouls on their side of the LOS it is treated as a PSK foul and the penalties are enforced at the end of the kick.  This 'end of the kick' must literally mean when the ball is first possessed and NOT the end of the run after R gains possession? ( "a kick is a kick until it is no longer a kick'. "

If R fouls on K's side of the LOS then the fouls are enforced from the previous spot.  So a roughing penalty moves the ball forward 15 yards and is always an automatic first down.

If in the situation where K's punter is roughed (15 yard automatic first down), what if K holds A) before the kick, or B) holds during or C) holds after the kick? (10 yard penalty)

thank you.
 
Maybe a holding penalty on K is not the best example for during or after the kick.  Let's say an incidental face masking (5 yard penalty) on K during and after the kick when R roughs K punter.

« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 10:40:52 AM by Derek Teigen »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Penalties during punt
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2018, 12:27:21 PM »
The particular foul by K won’t matter. Any live ball foul by K would cause both fouls to offset and replay the down.


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Offline bossman72

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Re: Penalties during punt
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2019, 03:58:35 PM »
thank you Bossman and Calhoun. 


I looked up PSK.  My understanding is if R fouls on their side of the LOS it is treated as a PSK foul and the penalties are enforced at the end of the kick.  This 'end of the kick' must literally mean when the ball is first possessed and NOT the end of the run after R gains possession? ( "a kick is a kick until it is no longer a kick'. "

If R fouls on K's side of the LOS then the fouls are enforced from the previous spot.  So a roughing penalty moves the ball forward 15 yards and is always an automatic first down.

If in the situation where K's punter is roughed (15 yard automatic first down), what if K holds A) before the kick, or B) holds during or C) holds after the kick? (10 yard penalty)

thank you.
 
Maybe a holding penalty on K is not the best example for during or after the kick.  Let's say an incidental face masking (5 yard penalty) on K during and after the kick when R roughs K punter.



In A and B, both fouls are pre-possession change, therefore they will automatically offset.

In C, you process it a little different, but it still results in an offset.
Roughing is pre-possession change.
Facemask is post-possession change.

Did R get the ball with clean hands?  No.  They roughed the kicker before the kick ended.  So that will be enforced.  However, K fouled as well.  Therefore, we have to offset them.  If R (or B) ends the down with dirty hands, and the other team fouled as well, we always offset.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Penalties during punt
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2019, 12:19:10 PM »
Would you actually march of the penalties or simply spot the ball at the previous spot and announce the penalties?  Something line RTK against team B, 15 yds and automatic 1st down, DB-PF against team A, 15 yds.  1st down team A at the previous spot.
This situation will / can become confusing to some / many....I would suggest.....

 (1) Tell U sNiCkErS U to get his hiking boots on;
 (2) step off 15, signal 38, 30, and 8;
 (3) step off 15 back to original LOS - R may drop  sNiCkErS to aid ump in his return  8] ;
 (4) signal 7, 38, and 8;
 (5) reset stakes.

This situation may not be as confusing now.

Only my opinion....you or your state may think otherwise...