Author Topic: Count the run....or not?????  (Read 3236 times)

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2558
  • FAN REACTION: +312/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Count the run....or not?????
« on: April 23, 2015, 10:00:27 AM »
"Just when you think you've seen everything, you realize that you haven't"...author anonymous

This occurred in this Monday's high school game - runners @ 1 & 2 w/2 out.
 (1) Hit and run was on, B hits liner toward LF;
 (2) LF traps the ball as R from 1st rounds 2nd & a few steps toward 3rd.....
        WHEN runner (lets now call him Bubba) becomes confused ??? :!# :o, and...
 (3) starts back toward 1st via a shortcut over the edge of IF grass, missing 2nd;
 (4) runner from 2nd crosses the plate BEFORE ball is thrown into 2nd base.....

Score the run ..or not ??? ???....you make the call. tiphat:

Offline bkdow

  • *
  • Posts: 239
  • FAN REACTION: +9/-3
  • Striving for the impossible level of perfection
Re: Count the run....or not?????
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2015, 09:29:19 AM »
My guess would be yes because the out is not yet declared.
"Don't let perfection get in the way of really good." John Lucivansky

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2558
  • FAN REACTION: +312/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Count the run....or not?????
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2015, 09:54:04 AM »
IMHO, the force would be reinstated once he passed 2nd on his way back to 1st. I treated the missed retouch similar to a onetime case play that stated; "...a missed base is considered an advanced base for the spirit of the rule..." regarding all runners advancing a base on a catcher's obstruction play. This now created two reasons the confused runner was out : (1) on appeal for failing to retouch; (2) force play. With the same philosophy as acknowledging a 4th out to cancel a run when a runner left early from 3rd. I then announced :
                   THE FORCE PLAY DOESN'T LET THE RUN COUNT.

The defensive coach  yEs: nodded...

The offensive coach grunted :-\.....

     ...and the band played on..... tiphat:

Offline bkdow

  • *
  • Posts: 239
  • FAN REACTION: +9/-3
  • Striving for the impossible level of perfection
Re: Count the run....or not?????
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2015, 12:12:13 PM »
This umpire will stick to offering his opinions on football  ^flag
"Don't let perfection get in the way of really good." John Lucivansky

Offline bama_stripes

  • *
  • Posts: 2236
  • FAN REACTION: +70/-25
Re: Count the run....or not?????
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2015, 10:09:14 AM »
IMHO, the force would be reinstated once he passed 2nd on his way back to 1st.

That's right.  2-29-2.

Bubba should be benched for (1) not realizing there were two out; and (2) not looking at his third base coach whose right arm strongly resembles a windmill.

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: Count the run....or not?????
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2015, 12:41:06 PM »
That's right.  2-29-2.

Bubba should be benched for (1) not realizing there were two out; and (2) not looking at his third base coach whose right arm strongly resembles a windmill.
I disagree. It's actually 2-29-3, but that assumes he retouches the base.   He did not retouch 2B, therefore the force is not reinstated.  Ralph relied on "last time by", but last time by can only CORRECT base running errors, not cause them.  Last time by says, "If a runner correctly touches a base that was missed (either in advancing or returning), the last time he was by the base, that last touch corrects any previous base running-infraction."

It says nothing about MISSING a base the last time by.  The force was not reinstated, the runner was out on appeal for missing the base.  Since it becomes a timing play, the run counts.

This is a rare case where missing a base actually helped the offense.  Of course, if R1 had simply stayed on 2B, there wouldn't have been an issue at all.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 12:44:59 PM by Atlanta Blue »

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2558
  • FAN REACTION: +312/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Count the run....or not?????
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2015, 07:11:54 AM »
As the play ended, my demented brain began to function....

1st thought : I'm cold ,wet and weary (40 F w/rain)

2nd thought : reminiscent of a onetime case that addressed 8-1-1e(1) where a R @ 1st misses 2nd & is thrown out at 3rd while B reaches 1st safely on catcher's obstruction, that read, "..runner will be assumed to have touched 2nd for the spirit of the rule and the play will stand..." (or something there such); I felt the force could therefore be reinstated.

3rd thought : With the force now reinstated and the fielder holding the ball at 2nd, the runner was out by either appeal or force.

4th thought: The force would benefit the team in the field by cancelling the run...so be it.

5th thought : Pondering all of this made me forget being wet & cold.

  Note : Not all my thoughts are correct ones :) ;) :( :o ??? ::) :-[ :-X :-\ :!#

Offline ALStripes17

  • *
  • Posts: 224
  • FAN REACTION: +12/-11
  • Be invisible
Re: Count the run....or not?????
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2016, 09:07:15 AM »
I disagree. It's actually 2-29-3, but that assumes he retouches the base.   He did not retouch 2B, therefore the force is not reinstated.  Ralph relied on "last time by", but last time by can only CORRECT base running errors, not cause them.  Last time by says, "If a runner correctly touches a base that was missed (either in advancing or returning), the last time he was by the base, that last touch corrects any previous base running-infraction."

It says nothing about MISSING a base the last time by.  The force was not reinstated, the runner was out on appeal for missing the base.  Since it becomes a timing play, the run counts.

This is a rare case where missing a base actually helped the offense.  Of course, if R1 had simply stayed on 2B, there wouldn't have been an issue at all.
I disagree with that assessment. 2-29-3 and 2.29.3 don't have anything in regards to touching the base to reinstate the force. It only says to retreat past the forced base.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

"I'm not concerned with your liking or disliking me - all I ask is that you respect me as a human being"

-Unknown-