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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: HeadAlphaGeek on October 18, 2018, 11:19:07 AM
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Long time lurker, first time poster.
This has caused some intense discussions among our crew.
3rd – 8 from A’s 40. A10 throws a quick pass to wide receiver A88 who catches it at A’s 44. There he is immediately grabbed by the face mask (PF) but manages to escape. He circles back toward the other side of the field and is hit at A’s 38 where he fumbles. A12 recovers the ball at A’s 35.
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Loose ball play, basic spot is previous spot. Enforce from A40.
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I'll give it a shot:
Basic spot is the end of the run which is A38 where he fumbled.
A has two choices:
Accept: A 1-10 @ B 47 clock starts on RFP
Decline: A 4-13 @ A 35 clock starts on RFP
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Sounds like the fumble at the 38 makes this a loose ball play, and enforced from the previous spot.
“SECTION 3 TYPES OF PLAY
ART. 1 . . . A loose-ball play is action during:
a. A free kick or scrimmage kick, other than those defined in 2-33-1a.
b. A legal forward pass.
c. A backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone and prior to a change of team possession.
NOTE: The run(s) which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble is (are) considered part of the action during a loose-ball play.”
Excerpt From: NFHS. “2017 NFHS Football Rules Book.”
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Sounds like the fumble at the 38 makes this a loose ball play, and enforced from the previous spot.
There are multiple running plays in this play. We use bean bags when a fumble occurs just for these types of situations.
The first running play starts at the snap (40), goes to the 44 (where the flag for the facemask foul is) and ends at the 38. We bean bag this spot (the 38) as a possible spot of enforcement.
The other run started at the recovery on the 35 and ended at the 35.
We enforce this facemask foul from the 38 (bean bag) because it occurred during the snap->bean bag.
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I am under the impression of 10-3-1 that everything preceding the fumble behind the LOS makes all of that action before fumble a loose ball play?
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I am under the impression of 10-3-1 that everything preceding the fumble behind the LOS makes all of that action before fumble a loose ball play?
the loose ball ended following the completion and it was then a running play. If he had been tackled where the face mask occured you would have just added 15 to the end of the run not gone back to the previous spot, right?
the rule that was quoted is for fumbles behind the LOS which is why we don't need to bean bag those fumbles
for penalties during a fumble beyond the LOS the basic spot is where the bean bag was dropped
at least this is how i see it
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I agree with everything you are saying. But in the OP the ball is fumbled behind the LOS.
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I'm actually changing my answer...
A38 would be the enforcement spot for any penalty that occured while the ball was loose during the fumble.
end of the run is A35 where A recovered the fumble
A's 1-10 @ 50, clock starts on the ready
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I agree with everything you are saying. But in the OP the ball is fumbled behind the LOS.
didn't realize that...
my head is starting to hurt
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Play ended with a loose ball behind the line of scrimmage, making everything that happened before it including the foul, part of the loose ball play. Enforce from previous spot. The fact that the ball had at some point been beyond the NZ is insignificant.
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Play ended with a loose ball behind the line of scrimmage, making everything that happened before it including the foul, part of the loose ball play. Enforce from previous spot. The fact that the ball had at some point been beyond the NZ is insignificant.
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What he said
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Play ended with a loose ball behind the line of scrimmage, making everything that happened before it including the foul, part of the loose ball play. Enforce from previous spot. The fact that the ball had at some point been beyond the NZ is insignificant.
I agree, now examining the Rule Book.
Normally, this would be enforced at the 38 if the line of scrimmage was before the 38. But since the line of scrimmage is the 40, we treat this as a loose ball play, and enforce at the 40.
10-6: Enforcement Spots, All-but-one-principle
A loose ball play is action during:
3. A backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of team possession.
So, this fumble was behind the line of scrimmage, so it's a loose ball play.
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Calhoun's got it right
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finally had a chance to get in my rule book and i think p80-81 provide the answers
the face mask occurred during a running play.
for a run play followed by a loose ball (when beyond the NZ) the run ends where the ball becomes loose (bean bag) but the action continues to be a run play until the ball is dead or a player gains possession.
the enforcement spot is the end of the run which in this case would be A's 38
so in other words, i'm going back to my original answer lol
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finally had a chance to get in my rule book and i think p80-81 provide the answers
the face mask occurred during a running play.
for a run play followed by a loose ball (when beyond the NZ) the run ends where the ball becomes loose (bean bag) but the action continues to be a run play until the ball is dead or a player gains possession.
the enforcement spot is the end of the run which in this case would be A's 38
so in other words, i'm going back to my original answer lol
CK the face mask did not occur during a running play, it occurred during a run (very important distinction) which preceded the fumble, therefore making it a loose ball play not a running play.
rule 2-33
ART.1....A loose-ball play is action during:
a. A free kick or scrimmage kick other than post-scrimmage kick fouls.
b. A legal forward pass.
c. A backward pass (including the snap), an illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of team possession.
d. The run or runs which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble.
ART.2...A running play is any action not included in Article 1, including the related run as in 2-41-9a
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finally had a chance to get in my rule book and i think p80-81 provide the answers
the face mask occurred during a running play.
for a run play followed by a loose ball (when beyond the NZ) the run ends where the ball becomes loose (bean bag) but the action continues to be a run play until the ball is dead or a player gains possession.
the enforcement spot is the end of the run which in this case would be A's 38
so in other words, i'm going back to my original answer lol
The phrase in parentheses is vitally important in understanding this scenario. Where did the ball become loose? It was NOT beyond the NZ, it was behind. This important fact made it a loose ball play with previous spot enforcement. It’s where the ball became loose, not where the foul occurred, that determines the type of play.
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Ok I get it
the fumble behind the neutral zone, regardless of it occurs immediately after the snap or 20 seconds later after a pass and run, wipes out everything prior and it is considered a loose-ball play for the purpose of penalty enforcement
this one of my favorite things about reffing football, I feel like I'm learning new things constantly
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This concept was the most difficult for me to grasp. I struggled with it for years. One day the light came on. This forum was instrumental in helping me. These guys know their stuff.
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I think that several of you missed the point.
The only thing really in question in my mind is once the ball crosses the neutral zone, does it stay a running play throughout or does it become a loose ball play again when it goes back behind the NZ? It seems to me that once the ball goes beyond then it would stay a running play, but I think that Calhoun is correct. I see nothing in the rule book that says that its significant that once it crosses. The only thing that matters is whether it is beyond or behind at the time of the fumble.
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Agree with jmckb99, it seems like logically the NZ would disappear once the ball goes beyond it. Maybe everyone else already knew this and it's obvious, but it sounds like by the enforcement we're following in this example that A could run the ball 20 yards downfield, fumble or pass backwards, and as long as possession never changed, a player could still throw a pass or kick behind the NZ...even though A already took the ball 20 yards beyond the NZ previously? That just doesn't seem right but as with the example in this post I can't find anything in the rule book against it.
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Agree with jmckb99, it seems like logically the NZ would disappear once the ball goes beyond it. Maybe everyone else already knew this and it's obvious, but it sounds like by the enforcement we're following in this example that A could run the ball 20 yards downfield, fumble or pass backwards, and as long as possession never changed, a player could still throw a pass or kick behind the NZ...even though A already took the ball 20 yards beyond the NZ previously? That just doesn't seem right but as with the example in this post I can't find anything in the rule book against it.
I can understand this confusion: especially when you consider that during a scrimmage kick, the "zone disintegrates immediately after the kick has crossed the expanded neutral zone or when it's trajectory is such that it cannot be touched until it comes down". (CB 6.2.6). It's not unreasonable for one to conclude that the same thing (NZ disintegration) might occur during a scrimmage play (not a kick); but, as pointed out, that "exception" has not been provided. Clearly, that it is because, during a run or pass play, who merely touches the ball and where has little impact on subsequent possession.
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I can understand this confusion: especially when you consider that during a scrimmage kick, the "zone disintegrates immediately after the kick has crossed the expanded neutral zone or when it's trajectory is such that it cannot be touched until it comes down". (CB 6.2.6). It's not unreasonable for one to conclude that the same thing (NZ disintegration) might occur during a scrimmage play (not a kick); but, as pointed out, that "exception" has not been provided. Clearly, that it is because, during a run or pass play, who merely touches the ball and where has little impact on subsequent possession.
Yeah, that section was one thing I found at first that made me think "ok, this might be something" but then after re-reading it I took it to only apply to the expanded NZ and not the NZ as a whole. I could be wrong about that, though.
So then is my understanding correct that a running play that goes beyond the NZ can end up resulting in a legal forward pass or legal kick behind or in the NZ as long as there wasn't a change of possession? I think we'd have a real hard time explaining that one to a coach when the ball went 10 yards downfield before coming back behind the NZ, but it sounds like by rule, since the NZ apparently never disintegrates and legal passes and kicks only state "in or behind the NZ" with no reference to the ball previously going beyond the NZ, that such pass or kick would be legal.
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So then is my understanding correct that a running play that goes beyond the NZ can end up resulting in a legal forward pass or legal kick behind or in the NZ as long as there wasn't a change of possession? I think we'd have a real hard time explaining that one to a coach when the ball went 10 yards downfield before coming back behind the NZ, but it sounds like by rule, since the NZ apparently never disintegrates and legal passes and kicks only state "in or behind the NZ" with no reference to the ball previously going beyond the NZ, that such pass or kick would be legal.
Under NFHS rules, yes, say on a 4th and 20, the QB can run downfield 10 yards, find that he can't make it the full 20, retreats back 10, then throws a pass to a receiver 20 yards downfield for a 1st down.
In NCAA or NFL, this is an illegal forward pass. Their neutral zones disintegrate, but that's not the NFHS rule.
Of course, you'll have to explain this to the offended coach while he's yelling at you telling you that you know nothing about the rules of football and this will be the 'last game you ever officiate' when he reports you as you suck so bad.
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Yes that’s my understanding. But here’s another wrinkle- if at any time during that play a lineman goes downfield and the pass is thrown beyond, we have ineligible downfield even if he comes back behind the NZ before the ball is thrown. Casebook 7.5.12 Situation A
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I can understand this confusion: especially when you consider that during a scrimmage kick, the "zone disintegrates immediately after the kick has crossed the expanded neutral zone or when it's trajectory is such that it cannot be touched until it comes down". (CB 6.2.6). It's not unreasonable for one to conclude that the same thing (NZ disintegration) might occur during a scrimmage play (not a kick); but, as pointed out, that "exception" has not been provided. Clearly, that it is because, during a run or pass play, who merely touches the ball and where has little impact on subsequent possession.
I think this reference is talking about the expanded neutral zone, because in HS, the NZ proper does not disintegrate once the kick crosses the expanded neutral zone. The neutral zone remains intact throughout the down, or at least until R or K possesses the kick beyond the NZ. Case in point: K kicks the ball, it travels 10 yds, takes a huge bounce, and comes back behind the neutral zone. Can K advance? Or kick it again? Or pass it? Of course....
Here's the statement in its entirety:
RULING: The purpose of expanding the neutral zone during a scrimmage kick is to permit normal line play. The neutral zone is expanded up to a maximum of 2 yards behind the defensive line of scrimmage (beyond the neutral zone) to allow offensive linemen to block and drive defensive linemen off the line of scrimmage. Low scrimmage kicks may touch or be touched by players of K or R, and such touching is ignored if the kick has not been beyond the expanded neutral zone. The zone disintegrates immediately when the kick has crossed the expanded zone or when the trajectory is such that it cannot be touched until it comes down. Once the zone disintegrates, touching of the kick by K in flight beyond the neutral zone is kick-catching interference if an R player is in position to catch the ball. If touched by R beyond the neutral zone, it establishes a new series. (2-28-2, 5-1-3f, 6-5-6)
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I think we have gotten off track a bit. We can only have one loose ball play, and a loose ball during 1 or more running plays. 10-3-1 " the run(s) which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass are considered part of the loose ball play.
So once the receiver catches and runs all actions after this are separate running plays (with a loose ball not play). I would want to enforce from the end of the run (bag).
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I think we have gotten off track a bit. We can only have one loose ball play, and a loose ball during 1 or more running plays. 10-3-1 " the run(s) which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass are considered part of the loose ball play.
So once the receiver catches and runs all actions after this are separate running plays (with a loose ball not play). I would want to enforce from the end of the run (bag).
I believe you are mistaken. While it’s true that we can only have 1 loose ball play during a down, the ball can be loose multiple times before that loose ball play. Examples include the snap, a fumble behind the line, a backward pass behind the line, etc. While all of these can be loose-ball plays in their own rights if the conditions are right, all of these can also simply be parts of a bigger loose-ball play if they happen prior to a final loose ball. Example:
Snap, backward pass, fumble OOB. Both the snap and the backward pass are loose balls which become a part of one loose-ball play.
In the OP, the pass indeed would have been the only loose-ball play had the play ended beyond the LOS. But, because the ball was carried back behind the los and ended with a fumble, that fumble and everything that happened before it, including the pass, became part of a huge Loose-ball play.
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I just pray that this doesn't happen to me on a Friday night with an evaluator in the stands... hEaDbAnG
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Lol. Me too. I’m just gonna act like I know what I’m doing and hope for the best. For the record, I don’t think there are 3 coaches in my entire state who would know if I got it wrong.
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Important things to remember.....
(1) a fumble behind the LOS -as in orig. post - is enforced as a loose ball play -previous spot;
(2) a fumble beyond the line is treated as the end of the related run and is treated as a running play;
(3) the last time the Red Sox played the Dodgers in the WS was 1916 - the Dodgers were then known as the Brooklyn Robins.
You may wish to forget #3 8]