Author Topic: OT Scrimmage Kick  (Read 6420 times)

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Offline sczeebra

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OT Scrimmage Kick
« on: July 22, 2018, 08:15:03 PM »
In OT, 4th and goal from R's 32 K kicks an unsuccessful field goal and K holds on the play. Can R under the new rule take the penalty for K's holding from the succeeding spot (The ten yard line here in SC), making it 1st and goal from the five.

Offline bossman72

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2018, 08:58:27 PM »
That's a great question.  I haven't seen the official wording yet, but the spirit of the rule is not to enforce this foul in OT or on a Try.  It's to prevent re-kicks on punts and kickoffs.

As with some rules, there may be some "collateral damage" plays that get unintentionally affected by the rule change, which were outside the scope of it's intended affect.

Offline FLAHL

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2018, 08:11:03 AM »
Copied from another thread:

For 10-4-2c to be in effect the following must occur:
1) K must legally kick the football, (this is not the NCAA rule so there is no requirement that the ball cross any line, in fact, in NFHS, it could be blocked for negative yardage) AND,
2) K must commit ANY live ball foul AT ANY TIME during the down, (this is not the NCAA rule so there is no requirement of when or even where the K foul occurs), AND
3) K is NOT next to put the ball in play!
If all three of these criteria are met,  the offended team, R, may choose succeeding spot enforcement with one exception, if R scores a Touchdown.

All three are met, so it sounds like R's ball, first and goal from the 5.  Or maybe the 2 1/2 after K's coach is hit with USC for reacting to this.   ;D
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 09:44:51 AM by FLAHL »

Offline ncwingman

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2018, 04:01:25 PM »
If all three of these criteria are met,  the offended team, R, may choose succeeding spot enforcement with one exception, if R scores a Touchdown.

I assume the exception you imply is enforcing on the ensuing kickoff? Remember that is only if the foul by K is after the end of the kick. If it is before the change of possession (end of the kick), then R does not have the kickoff option -- only the succeeding spot, which is the try.

Of course, that's all moot in OT since R can't score a TD as the ball would be dead as soon as they gained possession.

Offline Stinterp

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2018, 08:42:13 PM »
I believe this will be a state association interpretation.  This new rule will not be applicable in OT in our state.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2018, 11:10:42 AM »
I heard (from reliable street sources) that the "tack on" for scrimmage kicks would only apply for situations where PSK enforcement would apply.

I read on page 85 0f NFHS 2018 Rules Book, under resolving tied games , 10-4-3 : "Post scrimmage kick enforcement is not applicable in this procedure. "

I acknowledge that ,under 3-1-1, a state can alter this.

The state of Maine will not.

A state of confusion could.

 

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2018, 11:15:07 AM »
Any word on official guidelines and interpretations of these questions? I have a game in two weeks..

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2018, 11:52:30 AM »
Any word on official guidelines and interpretations of these questions? I have a game in two weeks..
NFHS usually publishes additional interps in early August. Check their website for updates.

Offline Willis

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2018, 02:44:28 PM »
In OT, 4th and goal from R's 32 K kicks an unsuccessful field goal and K holds on the play. Can R under the new rule take the penalty for K's holding from the succeeding spot (The ten yard line here in SC), making it 1st and goal from the five.

I'm confused.  The succeeding spot would be R's 10 yard line.  The penalty would be 10 yards towards K making it potentially R's ball on their own 20, first and 10.  No reasonable team would accept 80 yds to go in OT rather than 25.  Penalty would be declined and R would start their next OT series, right?

Offline Stinterp

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2018, 02:54:20 PM »
Team R is now Team A (the offensive team) and the foul was on K (now the defensive team) so the penalty would be marked off to the B-5 making it 1st and goal from the 5 for Team R (now A). still confused?

Offline Willis

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2018, 03:04:55 PM »
Stinterp--

Even more confused:

Prior to overtime, the ball would be placed on R's 20, as I described.  During OT, why would the penalty not be similarly enforced prior to the OT change of possession?  Why is there even a discussion of a rule potentially moving the ball 75 yards down the field due to it being OT? 

What I might be missing is, does an OT series normally start at the defensive 10 in SC?  If so, then the question is actually, does the holding enforcement carry over in the next OT session?

Offline Patrick E.

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2018, 03:18:45 PM »
Willis,

Under NFHS rules, OT is played in the same end of the field with each team having an opportunity to be on offense.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2018, 03:25:19 PM »
Stinterp--

Even more confused:

Prior to overtime, the ball would be placed on R's 20, as I described.  During OT, why would the penalty not be similarly enforced prior to the OT change of possession?  Why is there even a discussion of a rule potentially moving the ball 75 yards down the field due to it being OT? 

What I might be missing is, does an OT series normally start at the defensive 10 in SC?  If so, then the question is actually, does the holding enforcement carry over in the next OT session?

That is exactly the question. There is a new rule change in NFHS this year that states R may elect to accept a foul by K during a kicking down with enforcement at the succeeding spot, instead of having it enforced from the previous spot if during the kick or having to decline it to keep the ball.

Offline KWH

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2018, 02:15:42 PM »
Copied from another thread:

For 10-4-2c to be in effect the following must occur:
1) K must legally kick the football, (this is not the NCAA rule so there is no requirement that the ball cross any line, in fact, in NFHS, it could be blocked for negative yardage) AND,
2) K must commit ANY live ball foul until the end of the kick AT ANY TIME during the Kick down, (this is not the NCAA rule so there is no requirement of when or even where the K foul occurs), AND
3) K is NOT next to put the ball in play!
If all three of these criteria are met,  the offended team, R, may choose succeeding spot enforcement with one exception, if R scores a Touchdown.

All three are met, so it sounds like R's ball, first and goal from the 5.  Or maybe the 2 1/2 after K's coach is hit with USC for reacting to this.   ;D
This is the correct interpretation of the new rule.
K fouls committed after the end of the kick have basic spot enforcement and 8-2-3 may be applicable.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 01:04:53 PM by KWH »
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2018, 03:15:00 PM »
Thanks. So the word "down" in the exception needs to be removed?
EXCEPTION: The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) when K will not be next to put the ball in play.

Offline SCline

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2018, 04:27:07 PM »
What is your source for this new interpretation of the rule? The rule book is pretty clear with the vocabulary it uses so while the way it is worded creates a lot of “unintended” situation, the printed book to me would prevail unless and until a printed interpretation comes out from NFHS or State Associations.

Offline VA Official

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2018, 09:46:04 PM »
Copied from another thread:

For 10-4-2c to be in effect the following must occur:
1) K must legally kick the football, (this is not the NCAA rule so there is no requirement that the ball cross any line, in fact, in NFHS, it could be blocked for negative yardage) AND,
2) K must commit ANY live ball foul AT ANY TIME during the down, (this is not the NCAA rule so there is no requirement of when or even where the K foul occurs), AND
3) K is NOT next to put the ball in play!
If all three of these criteria are met,  the offended team, R, may choose succeeding spot enforcement with one exception, if R scores a Touchdown.

All three are met, so it sounds like R's ball, first and goal from the 5.  Or maybe the 2 1/2 after K's coach is hit with USC for reacting to this.   ;D

Has this interpretation been officially announced anywhere?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 10:12:22 PM by VA Official »

Offline bossman72

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2018, 08:20:03 AM »
Thanks. So the word "down" in the exception needs to be removed?
EXCEPTION: The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) when K will not be next to put the ball in play.

I would replace "down" with "loose ball play", since on a punt, this would encompass downfield fouls prior to the ball being kicked (like a loose ball play would).

Offline KWH

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2018, 12:43:14 PM »
My Chrystal ball says look for an interpretation of something very similar to:

The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K committed from the snap or free kick until the kick ends during a free or scrimmage kick down  (other than kick catch interference) when K will not be next to put the ball in play.
K fouls committed after the end of the kick have basic spot enforcement and 8-2-3 is also applicable

My Chrystal ball further indicates you should all be receiving clarification from your state rules interpreter in the near future.

The last thing my Chrystal ball says is your state rules interpreter is always correct. A NFHS rules interpreters meeting was held over the last weekend.  Check with your state rules interpreter.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 01:07:43 PM by KWH »
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Offline VA Official

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2018, 01:06:30 PM »
My Chrystal ball says look for an interpretation of something very similar to:

The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K committed from the snap or free kick until the kick ends during a free or scrimmage kick down  (other than kick catch interference) when K will not be next to put the ball in play.
K fouls committed after the end of the kick have basic spot enforcement and 8-2-3 is also applicable

My Chrystal ball further indicates you should all be receiving clarification from your state rules interpreter in the near future.

The last thing my Chrystal ball says is your state rules interpreter is always correct.

Any idea if that crystal ball says field goal attempts and fouls in K’s end zone are exceptions?

Offline KWH

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2018, 01:09:17 PM »
Any idea if that crystal ball says field goal attempts and fouls in K’s end zone are exceptions?

IT was discussed and there is no exception at this time. But again, check with your state rules interpreter as he/she is the final word.
SEE everything that you CALL, but; Don't CALL everything you SEE!
Never let the Rules Book get in the way of a great ball game!

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Offline Tdjr

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2018, 05:41:57 PM »
Just had our state interpretation meeting.  In PA, this rule will NOT be enforced in OT.

Offline KDJBBBJ

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2018, 06:38:52 PM »
Is not the basic spot enforcement after the end of the kick by K the same as 10-4-2.  This new rule basically just takes away the loose ball status on kicks if R wants to.   

Offline Curious

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2018, 12:00:27 PM »
If the new enforcement option is made applicable in OT, does it really matter if a FG or PAT is good or not?
In either case, as pointed out, all the criteria for the new option would be met.

Even if the kick(s) were successful, B could opt to give A the point(s), have the penalty enforced half the distance, and start their series at the B5.  If I were the B coach - and had strong confidence that my offense could score a TD from the 5 in 4 downs - I might want that option....
:sTiR: pi1eOn :!#

Offline blandis

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Re: OT Scrimmage Kick
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2018, 05:58:47 PM »
As written, we would have to enforce any Team K foul on an unsuccessful Field Goal on Team R's possession if K was the first team to have an Overtime possession.