Author Topic: kickoff out of bounds?  (Read 20659 times)

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Offline refjeff

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2017, 06:09:33 AM »
On only an airborne kick would you need to consider the sideline plane. The feeling back in 2000 was that a bouncing kick was in bounds until it landed OOB. If it touched R ,who was touching OOB, it would be considered R fault the kick went OOB.

Hope that helps to make it clearer.
  Thank you for your time and patience, you've been very helpful.  I don't like the differentiation between airborne and bouncing kicks.  Just my opinion though.

K attempts a pooch kick, but shanks it.  R runs 5 yards OOB near the 25 yard lane and catches the airborne kick on the fly.  = OOB caused by K, foul.  R takes the 5 yard penalty and we rekick.

K attempts another pooch kick and shanks it again, but not so bad.   This time the ball lands inbounds and bounces once high in the air.   R runs 5 yards OOB near the 25 yard lane and catches the kick before it touches the ground OB.  = OOB caused by R, new series for R at the 25 yl.

That's going to be a tough sell.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 11:37:02 AM by refjeff »

Offline bossman72

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2017, 08:30:42 AM »
We were going to put a rule change in last year to say "It is only a foul for KOB if the kick becomes OOB while on or over OOB territory".  But I think we submitted it too late.  There's always next year.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2017, 08:33:05 AM »
A "legal" pop up kick? ??
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Offline refjeff

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2017, 07:14:36 PM »
A "legal" pop up kick? ??
Yeah, that kick that looks like you hit it with a nine iron.  I don't know what it would be called.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2017, 07:39:28 PM »
Yeah, that kick that looks like you hit it with a nine iron.  I don't know what it would be called.
See rules 2-24-10 and 6-1-11.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 08:28:35 AM by Rulesman »
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Offline GA Umpire

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2017, 08:53:55 PM »
See rules 2-26-10 and 6-1-11.
Rulesman:  I believe you mean 2-24-10.
(I can't proofread my work either.)

Offline Ump33

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2017, 06:42:19 AM »
Yeah, that kick that looks like you hit it with a nine iron.  I don't know what it would be called.
Do you mean a "Pooch Kick?" That kick goes directly into the air without touching ground and looks like you hit it with a nine iron
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 02:33:15 PM by Ump33 »

Offline Rulesman

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2017, 08:29:45 AM »
Rulesman:  I believe you mean 2-24-10.
(I can't proofread my work either.)
So noted and corrected. Thanks. That was a big fat fingered post.
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Offline refjeff

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2017, 11:10:59 AM »
See rules 2-24-10 and 6-1-11.
Do you think that helps?  I get it, and said so.  Not a pop up kick.  I was referring to that short chip shot that that just clears the front line of R, but it is not driven immediately into the ground.  So it looks like a pop up kick, but it's not, and it's legal.  Someone else suggested a "pouch" kick.  Is that what it is called?  And I think he meant to type "pooch" actually.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 11:13:26 AM by refjeff »

Offline Mad Mike

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2017, 01:01:40 PM »
Quick Question:

Free Kick bounces at 10 Yd Line nearing the sideline. R gets a glove on it but does not possess the ball. It continues out of bounds at the Yd. line. Do we have a penalty for kicking out of bounds or give it to R at the 8?


Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2017, 01:16:28 PM »
If both the kick and R were still in the field of play when he touched the kick, R get's it at the out-of-bounds spot.
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Offline CalhounLJ

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kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2018, 04:17:18 PM »
Hate to bump a topic, but this seems relevant. Did anybody see the Duke/Temple game? Duke player ran out of bounds intentionally on a kickoff, fell to his knees, still oob, and picked up the kicked ball, which was at rest? Ruling on the field: " Since the player who touched the ball was oob at the time, the ball was oob by the KICKERS. Foul for illegal procedure. Duke got the ball at the 35.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 04:19:59 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline js in sc

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2018, 05:27:14 PM »
Hate to bump a topic, but this seems relevant. Did anybody see the Duke/Temple game? Duke player ran out of bounds intentionally on a kickoff, fell to his knees, still oob, and picked up the kicked ball, which was at rest? Ruling on the field: " Since the player who touched the ball was oob at the time, the ball was oob by the KICKERS. Foul for illegal procedure. Duke got the ball at the 35.
I saw that.  In NFHS, that should be illegal participation on R.  That being the case, would the illegal participation and KOB offset and replay the kick?
Also curious if that is IP in NCAA rules?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2018, 06:13:02 PM »
I think the OOB restrictions only apply to A/K.


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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2018, 06:23:20 AM »
I think the OOB restrictions only apply to A/B

 No books handy, but I’m pretty sure it’s a foul for any player to intentionally go OOB and influence the play.

Offline Kalle

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2018, 06:36:52 AM »
Also curious if that is IP in NCAA rules?

It isn't. NCAA does not have a concept of the team B/R player of voluntarily going out of bounds ever being a foul. The restrictions always apply only to team A/K players.

Offline bossman72

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2018, 08:33:16 AM »
That being the case, would the illegal participation and KOB offset and replay the kick?

That "otherwise participate" IP rule is one of the worst on the books.  Tweaking the definition of "Player OOB" and clarifying this KOB rule would make the rule obsolete.

I don't think this is KOB in NFHS because the ball was not on or above OOB territory when it became dead. There is a case book interpretation.

So I'm assuming that IP foul is live ball.  Previous spot enforcement.  So, it's probably declined.  Dumb rule.

Offline Regno71

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2019, 01:39:27 PM »
This came up in a championship game here, I'd appreciate the thoughts of the group on this scenario:

K lines up in a legal free kick formation. K1 kicks the ball to the R-15, near the sideline. It bounces to the R-11 untouched, inches from the sideline, but does not go out of bounds.

As the coverage team advances, K15 is pushed out of bounds at the R-22. K15 continues down the sideline, out of bounds, to the R-11 and falls on the ball to recover it. As he lands on the ball, the ball is in-bounds and the top half of his body is in the field of play, while the bottom half of his body is still out of bounds.

In this scenario, K15 did not re-establish himself inbounds, and the ball was untouched by R. Under the rules, this is how I see it - but it has caused quite a bit of disagreement and discussion:

K15 did not re-establish himself inbounds, but proceeded OOB to the ball, therefore we have a flag for illegal participation. Further, under rule 2-29-3 (A loose ball is out of bounds when it touches anything, including a player or game official that is out of bounds.), with K15 being out of bounds when he touches it, the ball is ruled OOB.

It is my position that we have a flag now for KOB, in addition to the flag for IP.

R now has the following options:

Accept IP, Decline KOB
Option 1 - Loose ball foul for IP, enforce from the previous spot, 15 yards and re-kick
Option 2 - Under the 10-4-2 Exception, R may choose to enforce from the 11, 15 yards, R 1-10 at the 26

OR

Decline IP, Accept KOB
Option 1 - Enforce from the 11, plus 5 yards. R 1-10 at the 16
Option 2 - KOB - R 1-10 at the 35

This does not fall under the 6-1-9C Case Book scenario, as it is K who is rendering the ball OOB.

Essentially it comes down to R selecting either to play 1-10 from the 35, or move K back to their 25 and re-kick.

Am I accurate in this thinking? Or no?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 01:42:35 PM by Regno71 »

Offline refjeff

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2019, 02:54:15 PM »
Correct, as I understand it.

9.6.1 requires K15 to return inbounds "at the first opportunity."  11 yards seems too far.  If K15 could have returned sooner but failed to do so it is a foul for illegal participation when he touched the ball.  If he was actually "ridden" by the blocker for 10 yards and touched the ball as soon as he got loose I don't have a flag for IP.

In either case there is a foul for the KO OOB when K15 touches it.


Offline Regno71

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2019, 03:16:54 PM »
Your assumption is correct, he was not ridden out of bounds, simply bumped out and he traveled on his own down the sideline, 2 yards out of bounds before jumping on the ball.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2019, 03:53:57 PM »
This is more complicated than it seems. For K to be guilty of IP, one of two things must be true. Either he came back inbounds late after being blocked OOB, or he INTENTIONALLY went OOB and then influenced the play. I get the fact that he influenced the play, but he didn’t INTENTIONALLY go OOB, or did he? And he never returned Inbounds.


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Offline Regno71

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #46 on: January 02, 2019, 05:49:00 PM »
Either he came back inbounds late after being blocked OOB, or he INTENTIONALLY went OOB and then influenced the play. I get the fact that he influenced the play, but he didn’t INTENTIONALLY go OOB, or did he? And he never returned Inbounds.

He did not intentionally go out of bounds. But he also failed to return inbounds at the "earliest opportunity", as he was unobstructed on the sideline and could have stepped right back inbounds in 2-3 strides, well before the 11. In fact, he NEVER returned inbounds and never made an effort to return inbounds to establish himself until he jumped on the ball sitting next to the sideline, and he was still partially out of bounds when he recovered the ball.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2019, 06:26:03 PM »
Which is my point. As I read the rule, K is restricted from coming back INBOUNDS prior to a change of possession unless he was forced out and comes back immediately. This didn’t happen. He was forced out, but never came back in. There is nothing illegal about staying out of bounds.

The other restriction is against any player INTENTIONALLY going out of bounds and either returning, OR INTENTIONALLY touching the ball, OR influencing the play, Or otherwise participating.

I agree K did the last three. He intentionally touched the ball, he influenced the play, and he otherwise participated, whatever that means. The problem is that he did not INTENTIONALLY go out of bounds. In other words, it was not his intention to gain an advantage by going out of bounds.

That’s why I have a problem with IP in this situation. I do agree we have a kick oob and a flag on K for that.


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Offline js in sc

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2019, 07:43:04 PM »
Which is my point. As I read the rule, K is restricted from coming back INBOUNDS prior to a change of possession unless he was forced out and comes back immediately. This didn’t happen. He was forced out, but never came back in. There is nothing illegal about staying out of bounds.

The other restriction is against any player INTENTIONALLY going out of bounds and either returning, OR INTENTIONALLY touching the ball, OR influencing the play, Or otherwise participating.

I agree K did the last three. He intentionally touched the ball, he influenced the play, and he otherwise participated, whatever that means. The problem is that he did not INTENTIONALLY go out of bounds. In other words, it was not his intention to gain an advantage by going out of bounds.

That’s why I have a problem with IP in this situation. I do agree we have a kick oob and a flag on K for that.


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True, he was not OOB intentionally to gain an advantage, but he did not return immediately thus gaining an advantage by staying OOB for 11 yards.  Would you not have 2 fouls on K, free kick OOB and illegal participation for not returning inbounds immediately and then influencing the play?

Offline CalhounLJ

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kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2019, 07:59:25 PM »
I don’t think so. It’s not a foul for a player to stay oob. The foul comes when/ if the player comes back in, with the exception of the K player who is forced out coming back in at the first opportunity. The rule doesn’t say the player MUST come back inbounds, only that if he does, it must be at the first opportunity. 
9-6-1.

9-6-2 covers the player who goes out of bounds intentionally. This player CAN go out of bounds intentionally with no foul. However, he can’t intentionally go out of bounds and then intentionally touch the ball, influence the play, or otherwise participate.

I may be reading too much into the word intentionally, but the Redding Guide certainly does emphasize that accidentally or being forced out matters as far as 9-6-2 is concerned.

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« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 08:02:05 PM by CalhounLJ »