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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: Stinterp on August 04, 2015, 08:11:47 AM
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If the box reads 3rd down but it is really 2nd down and the offense runs a play and throws an interception, what do we do?
If the box reads 3rd down but it is really 4th down and the offense runs a play and throws an interception, what do we do?
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Still waiting for NFHS formal interpretations regarding this, but was told on the interpreter's conference call that A would be given the ball back :o ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'( :bOW :!#. Waiting to hear more, if it was really 4th down, but played as 3rd down , a fresh new can of worms is opened deadhorse: pi1eOn pray:; hEaDbAnG nAnA.......
MORALE OF STORY : DON'T SCREW UP THE DOWNS!!!!!!
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We have discussed the following play, which seems to fit into this category, but have not come to a conclusion that we are certain about.
Down marker reads 4th down. A (K) punts the ball which is recovered by B (R) with no further complications. It is then discovered that it was actually 3rd down. Who gets the ball and where?
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After confirming the correct down situation with the R, instruct the Down Box Holder to correct his display ( and if it was his fault, ask him to pay better attention).
The Case Book Reference (5.1.1.a) "until a new series of downs is awarded" relates to an error causing misunderstanding of the down, NOT by action determined during an, otherwise, authorized down. Teams are ENTIRELY [/i]responsible for determining which play is being called during each down and being aware of the correct down is part of that RESPONSIBILITY.
NF: 3-11 provides for "a player (directed by his Coach, or Head Coach) to request and be granted a time-out for the purpose of the Coach and the Referee reviewing a decision which may have resulted from the misapplication or misinterpretation of a rule, provided the request is made prior to the time the ball becomes live following the play to be reviewed..."
With the exception of 5th downs, mistakes with the down box DO NOT authorize "Do overs".
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What if the box reads 4th down but it is really 5th down and the offense runs a play and throws an interception, what do we do?
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We have discussed the following play, which seems to fit into this category, but have not come to a conclusion that we are certain about.
Down marker reads 4th down. A (K) punts the ball which is recovered by B (R) with no further complications. It is then discovered that it was actually 3rd down. Who gets the ball and where?
My understanding is A/K would get the ball back and replay 3rd down. I'll keep all advised as I hear further.
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After confirming the correct down situation with the R, instruct the Down Box Holder to correct his display ( and if it was his fault, ask him to pay better attention).
The Case Book Reference (5.1.1.a) "until a new series of downs is awarded" relates to an error causing misunderstanding of the down, NOT by action determined during an, otherwise, authorized down. Teams are ENTIRELY [/i]responsible for determining which play is being called during each down and being aware of the correct down is part of that RESPONSIBILITY.
NF: 3-11 provides for "a player (directed by his Coach, or Head Coach) to request and be granted a time-out for the purpose of the Coach and the Referee reviewing a decision which may have resulted from the misapplication or misinterpretation of a rule, provided the request is made prior to the time the ball becomes live following the play to be reviewed..."
With the exception of 5th downs, mistakes with the down box DO NOT authorize "Do overs".
Not saying I disagree, but that isn't what appears to be coming out of the interpreters call.
And if we require a team that punted on 3rd down to live with that decision when the box mistakenly said 4th, then I think they should get the benefit of any 5th down if the box mistakenly said 4th.
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We can only hope we're not heading for a "nanny state" on HS football fields. What ever happens, good or bad (which depends entirely on which side of the field you're on) during a 5th down, SIMPLY SHOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED, and the simplest, and fairest, solution is SHOULDN'T COUNT.
Misreading 2nd or 3rd down and misunderstanding it as 4th down, is SIMPLY; A MISTAKE, which could be made by either team, and, like most mistakes, present unfortunate consequences. Football is a wonderful, and often complicated game which requires EVERYONE to pay attention to a lot of different things.
Misunderstanding, or misreading, a Down is one of those mistakes that should ABSOLUTELY NEVER happen to an official or a coach, more than once, because if it happens that one time, it should burn scar tissue deep into your rear end that should NEVER permit you to forget the embarrassment and pain of doing so. Knowing that SHOULD likely prevent that first mistake from happening.
There are always reasons to leave ANY and ALL boxes Pandora leaves around, closed, hopefully our interpreters, and rule makers, will remember that.
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When I worked the chains, I asked the "Boxman" to talk out loud every time he flipped the down marker. Hearing "I got 2 on the box" or "I got 3 on the box" behind me before every down was very reassuring. Unfortunately, the willingness/ability of the Boxman to cooperate varies greatly.
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Don't know if this is common practice or not but before giving the ready for play I would look at the down box and if it was incorrect I would have it corrected before giving ready for play. Now what showed on scoreboard was anybody's guess. But by always checking down box first that insured that if there were a foul up it belonged to our crew (thank heavens never had one) and not the fault of someone on the chain crew.
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Still waiting for NFHS formal interpretations regarding this, but was told on the interpreter's conference call that A would be given the ball back :o ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'( :bOW :!#. Waiting to hear more, if it was really 4th down, but played as 3rd down , a fresh new can of worms is opened deadhorse: pi1eOn pray:; hEaDbAnG nAnA.......
MORALE OF STORY : DON'T SCREW UP THE DOWNS!!!!!!
Ralph, you are correct, at least in California. Got this from the CIF.
"Any change of possession that occurs during an improper down, including fumble recoveries, interceptions, and scoring plays ARE REMOVED when an improper down is corrected." Ouch.
One question I had was: what if an improper down (a "5th down") is run, or, worst case scenario, 2 or 3 plays (a TD on a 5th down followed by a try then a kickoff that is legally touched and run back) takes 20-25 seconds off the clock before the problem is found and corrected. Do we then put those seconds back on the clock--assuming, optimistically, that we KNOW how much time ran off the clock? Going back in time and "correcting" what happened. Wow.
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Yes I believe under 3.3.5d and 3.4.7 we have the right to correct timing.
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When I worked the chains, I asked the "Boxman" to talk out loud every time he flipped the down marker. Hearing "I got 2 on the box" or "I got 3 on the box" behind me before every down was very reassuring. Unfortunately, the willingness/ability of the Boxman to cooperate varies greatly.
I do it the opposite way. On just about every down I will say "John do you have 3 on the box", etc.
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A lot of unknown about this. Our meeting last night (with a state representative) said the same as Ralph....more information to follow. First game in 17 days, hope it is resolved but if it is not, I'm going to make sure we are all the same page with the down. yEs:
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A lot of unknown about this. Our meeting last night (with a state representative) said the same as Ralph....more information to follow. First game in 17 days, hope it is resolved but if it is not, I'm going to make sure we are all the same page with the down. yEs:
AMEN!
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Creating, or opening up, a never ending "do over" box would be "an accident waiting to happen".
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I'm thinking of two very different scenarios here. The first one is that the game officials truly lose track of the down. I think we all agree that this would be an unforgivable error and something that absolutely should never occur. But if it does, we follow the rules as instructed.
The second scenario is this - all officials, players, and coaches know that it's 3rd down. The play is called and run based on correct info. But the Boxman flipped the down marker in the wrong direction and changed 2nd down to 1st instead of 3rd. As a former HL, I know this has happened to me. WV's suggestion of verifying the down before blowing the RFP is a great suggestion, but still not foolproof as the Boxman still has 25 seconds to do something incorrect with the down indicator - could be as simple as he forgot that he already advanced it, so he advances it again. Now what? Does the coach, by rule, have the ability to ask for the down to be replayed because the down indicator was incorrect? (The quality of the chain crews in our area varies greatly from school to school and from week to week.)
Now think about JV games with chain crews that are volunteers from the stands, players who are not playing that night for some reason, or others who would rather read their text messages than concentrate on the game. Talk about a "never ending do over."
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Hopefully this is much ado about nothing. 34 years and never had a problem with wrong down (at least as far as I know). Most likely scenario I can foresee is if one of us old far## uh make that oldtimers forgets OPI isn't a loss of down anymore and then either the coach or one of the younger crew guys wakes up and says Hey we screwed that up and the down is wrong. so like everybody else says keep track of the downs and it should never come into play. All in all this rule change strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and unfortunately has the potential to cause larger problems than it solves.
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As the R, I always check the box before the RFP. Even having an experienced HL on my crew, I occasionally catch an error.
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I've flipped a down wrong before. They changed they way the box works (the indicator tabs used to move one direction from 1st through 4th, and then they reversed it). After a punt, having everyone set up and ready to go with a big old "4" on the box is not unusual for a short period - everybody in the place, including the box man, knows it's really 1st down.
For lower level games I've had to get 'volunteers' out of the stands, and then repeat the process for the second half.
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As the R, I always check the box before the RFP. Even having an experienced HL on my crew, I occasionally catch an error.
This is why I always checked it before RFP like you do. Many times my HL had the right down, the chain crew member thought he had the right down, but the down box itself showed the wrong down because the HL and down box man usually aren't looking directly at it, they didn't realize it was incorrect.
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As the R, I always check the box before the RFP. Even having an experienced HL on my crew, I occasionally catch an error.
I presumed EVERY Referee, in EVERY game, on EVERY down, at EVERY level glanced at the down box to verify it, and the Referee's down number matched. When those numbers don't match, SOMEONE made a mistake. Like a land mine, better to make sure where the problem is, than guess and take a chance on stepping on it (in it).
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The rules and the case books seem to agree. The Referee has the authority to correct the number of the next down. If a 5th down was awarded the "correction" would revert back to where the ball was before the "extra" play was run and B would be awarded the ball because A hadn't gained a first down.
Any other error by the down box, scoreboard, or officials may be "corrected" by the Referee declaring the proper next down. Whatever happened on the disputed down stands. NO DO-OVERS !!
We certainly aren't going to allow a do-over if the home team down box or scoreboard conveniently displayed the wrong down at a critical point of the game and the play just doesn't work out in their favor.
The rules book and the case book do have a slightly different time frame as to when it is too late for a correction. Case book says until a new series is awarded. Rules book says until the ball becomes alive after a new series is awarded.
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Here is my key to the down box. The only way the down box should show the wrong down is if the officials have the wrong down. Prior to giving the ready for play I display by hand signal the next down and announce (not over the PA) the next down and check the down box. If it shows the wrong down I make sure to correct it. I don't care what the scoreboard says and if somehow the down box man changes the down box after the ready for play we are still going with what the down really was and perhaps removing a chain crew member. The only way I see this correction coming into play is if we the officials have it wrong
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The rules and the case books seem to agree. The Referee has the authority to correct the number of the next down. If a 5th down was awarded the "correction" would revert back to where the ball was before the "extra" play was run and B would be awarded the ball because A hadn't gained a first down.
Any other error by the down box, scoreboard, or officials may be "corrected" by the Referee declaring the proper next down. Whatever happened on the disputed down stands. NO DO-OVERS !!
We certainly aren't going to allow a do-over if the home team down box or scoreboard conveniently displayed the wrong down at a critical point of the game and the play just doesn't work out in their favor.
The rules book and the case book do have a slightly different time frame as to when it is too late for a correction. Case book says until a new series is awarded. Rules book says until the ball becomes alive after a new series is awarded.
Not saying I disagree, but I think you are going to be in for a big surprise when the NFHS issues their interpretation.
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The rules and the case books seem to agree. The Referee has the authority to correct the number of the next down. If a 5th down was awarded the "correction" would revert back to where the ball was before the "extra" play was run and B would be awarded the ball because A hadn't gained a first down.
Any other error by the down box, scoreboard, or officials may be "corrected" by the Referee declaring the proper next down. Whatever happened on the disputed down stands. NO DO-OVERS !!
We certainly aren't going to allow a do-over if the home team down box or scoreboard conveniently displayed the wrong down at a critical point of the game and the play just doesn't work out in their favor.
The rules book and the case book do have a slightly different time frame as to when it is too late for a correction. Case book says until a new series is awarded. Rules book says until the ball becomes alive after a new series is awarded.
We were told in our state meeting that with a change of possession (such as a punt on 3rd down, when the box says 4th down) that as long as the team now in possession has snapped the ball there is a do-over. The key being that a new series has not been awarded and that is interpreted as the ball not being snapped on the new 1st down. So we are having do-overs, so again do screw up the down
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...as long as the team now in possession has snapped the ball there is a do-over. The key being that a new series has not been awarded and that is interpreted as the ball not being snapped on the new 1st down.
??? These statements contradict each other.
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We were told in our state meeting that with a change of possession (such as a punt on 3rd down, when the box says 4th down) that as long as the team now in possession has snapped the ball there is a do-over.
Opening a "Do-over" door is absolute INSANITY, and will create far more problems than it would otherwise be necessary to correct. Yes, it is a situation that every official is responsible to avoid, and which great pains and constant mechanics have been designed to, and are effectively, correcting.
However it is, and well should be, the RESPONSIBILITY of every Coach to be aware of the correct down BEFORE calling any play, and when and if there is any question regarding the display of down, Coaches have the ability to question the accuracy of the display WITHOUT PENALTY, when they are correct. Team statisticians are available to Coaching Staffs to help avoid any misunderstandings.
This clearly is a solution in search of a problem, and will be counterproductive.
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Opening a "Do-over" door is absolute INSANITY, and will create far more problems than it would otherwise be necessary to correct. Yes, it is a situation that every official is responsible to avoid, and which great pains and constant mechanics have been designed to, and are effectively, correcting.
However it is, and well should be, the RESPONSIBILITY of every Coach to be aware of the correct down BEFORE calling any play, and when and if there is any question regarding the display of down, Coaches have the ability to question the accuracy of the display WITHOUT PENALTY, when they are correct. Team statisticians are available to Coaching Staffs to help avoid any misunderstandings.
This clearly is a solution in search of a problem, and will be counterproductive.
Agree with everything you said and used the exact same sentiments as you did in your final paragraph. Only problem is I'm not sure rules committee is on same page we are.
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The down is 100% the responsibility of the officials, not the coach. Sure, the coach can ask for it to be corrected if he believes it is wrong. But if a coach asks the official for the down, he has to be able to rely on that information, as the official is the SOLE keeper of that fact. Want proof of that? Take this situation: R says it's 4th down. Coach says it's 3rd down. Coach shows the R the play sheet that shows what plays he has run this series, and the statistician's report. R says, "Sorry, you must have missed one, it's 4th down." So what down is it? It's 4th down, because that's what the referee said it is. The officials are the SOLE keeper of the correct down. Coaches have ZERO responsibility for the down.
I ask the official what down it is. I'm told it's third down. I run a play and fail to reach the LTG. As I send out my punt team, the R says, "You know, I know I told you it was third down, but it was really 4th. B's ball." Sorry, that needs to be corrected. In legal terms, its called "detrimental reliance".
If the speed limit is posted as 55, and I'm going 55, the police can't give me a ticket and say, "I know what the sign says, but it's really 35 in this area."
yes, replaying downs is going to be ugly, and this is certainly a can of worms. But it's ridiculous to say the coach has sole responsibility for knowing the correct down.
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If we as officials truly screw up the down, I'll enforce whatever the NFHS says, just like we do with an IW.
I am more concerned about what happens when we all know what down it is, but the box says something else. THAT is the can of worms that I hope we avoid opening.
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If we as officials truly screw up the down, I'll enforce whatever the NFHS says, just like we do with an IW.
I am more concerned about what happens when we all know what down it is, but the box says something else. THAT is the can of worms that I hope we avoid opening.
That is the responsibility of the Referee to insure the down box is correct before giving the RFP. Now when it is incorrect it is the HL I inform so that he can get it corrected but under ordinary circumstances I don't want my HL turning his.back to the field of play to check the down box. This doesn't eliminate responsibility of the rest of the crew to help Ref and even to insure he has the right down.
And yes I agree with AB that we officials are sole determinants of down number and if we screw up some correction should be made. But if we have the down number wrong I would hope the "offended" coach would at least question us prior to the ball being snapped, and if we aren't cognizant enough to recognize our mistake then I doubt we're going to figure it out a play or two later.
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Do you remember the "offense which shall not be named" and "4 players each side of the kicker FROM THE RFP AND UNTIL THE KICK"? Each produced much turmoil and prediction of disaster. Both were eventually addressed by the NFHS and we have sailed on. I expect that this too shall come to pass, after a year or two of agony. The law of unintended consequences strikes again! I am guessing that the NFHS will issue some guidance for the 2015 season and then rethink the problem and issue new guidelines for 2016 and beyond.
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??? These statements contradict each other.
sorry that was a typo "hasn't snapped"
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I am guessing that the NFHS will issue some guidance for the 2015 season and then rethink the problem and issue new guidelines for 2016 and beyond.
IOW, Don't screw up the down number THIS year!
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Doesn't the rule state "Shall have the authority" ? It doesn't say "Shall correct" I think it leaves a lot of consideration regarding impact.
Our crew depended on me, as Line Judge to "Boom out" down on every play, plus insure the box flipped. Maybe because of my big mouth. "First down! First down!" And watch the box. If the White Hat knew where we were LOS wise it helped on penalty enforcement as well. We just don't have those problems, plus our HL has the box man repeating my instructions as well.
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If we as officials truly screw up the down, I'll enforce whatever the NFHS says, just like we do with an IW.
I am more concerned about what happens when we all know what down it is, but the box says something else. THAT is the can of worms that I hope we avoid opening.
PET PEVES:
-In baseball, when the wrong count or outs is on the scoreboard. Yes ,I know the ump is official BUT I want to be sure the players & coaches know before the ball is pitched = get the scoreboard operator's attention and get it corrected, even if I need to call time out.
-In football, when the downs marker is wrong.= OTO, first verify that you're right and he's wrong and get it corrected prior to new RFP. The entire crew should echo, with their fingers, before the RFP on every snap.
-Lima beans, NY Yankees, and the such....
PS :The new spiffy interpretations deals basically about the subject. NFHs.org>athletics>football>2015-16 rules interpretations.
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A down here, a down there, we had something worse here...
During the second quarter home team RB runs for a long and apparent touchdown (the line judge signals a touchdown). Everybody except the referee thinks that a touchdown is scored. The referee rules the runner out at B-5 and does not signal a score. The ball is spotted, after an argument, at B-3. Everybody except the referee thinks that the PAT is good. The referee is slightly confused as to why the team kicks on the first down, but signals score and marks down three points. The scoreboard operator adds seven points to the home team.
After about 10 minutes (real time) the referee tells the home team that they actually have four fewer points than everybody else thinks that they have. At this time the scoreboard is corrected. The final score is 18-20.
Now, what do you do as the referee at the time you realize there is a major confusion on the score? As the governing organization after the game?
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That one trumps a horrible time out problem we had in a conference this year ....
I hope they had a fast car ...
As a referee I don `t know. By heart at the moment I would do a head coaches conference to clearify the problem but this is only by heart .....
As the governing organization: ask for a written report, swear, curse, swear, curse, take a reminder for the next courses concerning crew mechanics ...... (and again decision by heart:) the ruling stands on the field
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A down here, a down there, we had something worse here...
During the second quarter home team RB runs for a long and apparent touchdown (the line judge signals a touchdown). Everybody except the referee thinks that a touchdown is scored. The referee rules the runner out at B-5 and does not signal a score. The ball is spotted, after an argument, at B-3. Everybody except the referee thinks that the PAT is good. The referee is slightly confused as to why the team kicks on the first down, but signals score and marks down three points. The scoreboard operator adds seven points to the home team.
After about 10 minutes (real time) the referee tells the home team that they actually have four fewer points than everybody else thinks that they have. At this time the scoreboard is corrected. The final score is 18-20.
Now, what do you do as the referee at the time you realize there is a major confusion on the score? As the governing organization after the game?
Just slightly confused? Does this crew not communicate with each other?
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Wow. There are so many things wrong there that it baffles the mind! That rivals the screwup I saw (on film) in a South Georgia game last year. A scores a TD, late hit on the runner after he scores, enforced on the kickoff. Kickoff is now from the B45. Kicker puts kickoff through the uprights, and the referee awarded 3 points. Over 80 years of combined experience on the crew, and they awarded 3 points. The crew had a few weeks off to think about it, and didn't work any playoff games.
Now, what do you do as the referee at the time you realize there is a major confusion on the score?
Have a crew meeting, fast, away from both teams, and see if the rest of the crew can explain what really happened. But wow, this is a hole that will be tough to get out of.
As the governing organization after the game?
Look to see who can be promoted to referee from another crew, because this crew is going to need a new one.
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Unfortunately the referee in this case was inexperienced, just like the rest of the crew. Here in Finland we don't have the luxury of always having at least an experienced referee, sometimes we end up with extremely inexperienced crews - and this is the result.
The cause was the fact that the referee semi-silently overruled the line judge (based on the video, nobody really know why) and did not communicate this to the teams (and the scoreboard). I think the lesson we take here in Finland out of this is that you can rarely overcommunicate - if there's anything even slightly strange, take the minute to go to both coaches and explain to them what has happened and what is the ruling.
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Well thats the problem over here in Europe. Experience have to be built up and you have to cope with the problem of very few colleagues (for sometimes a lot of games)....
Most often the lowest leagues have to suffer and these are the leagues with the most ^flag
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Wow. There are so many things wrong there that it baffles the mind! That rivals the screwup I saw (on film) in a South Georgia game last year. A scores a TD, late hit on the runner after he scores, enforced on the kickoff. Kickoff is now from the B45. Kicker puts kickoff through the uprights, and the referee awarded 3 points. Over 80 years of combined experience on the crew, and they awarded 3 points. The crew had a few weeks off to think about it, and didn't work any playoff games.
In 1947, a rule was added that allowed a drop kick that is used as a return kick to score a field goal. In 1965, the return kick was eliminated. If 68 of those 80 years of experience belonged to the white hat, he may have gotten those rule changes confused ???.
SOURCE : NFHS Handbook
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What the heck is the R doing determining that the runner went OOB anyway? There's the problem in the first place.... And if the R decided he was OOB at the 5, why didn't he question the reason that the snap was from the 3 instead of the 5?
I know, Kalle said "nobody knew why" already. But if I'm working L and the R is going to overrule me on whether a player is OOB, he'd best be ready to either trade hats, or move me to another spot on the field - if he can see that better than I can, that vision belongs on the wing to start with.
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Wow. There are so many things wrong there that it baffles the mind! That rivals the screwup I saw (on film) in a South Georgia game last year. A scores a TD, late hit on the runner after he scores, enforced on the kickoff. Kickoff is now from the B45. Kicker puts kickoff through the uprights, and the referee awarded 3 points. Over 80 years of combined experience on the crew, and they awarded 3 points. The crew had a few weeks off to think about it, and didn't work any playoff games.
In 1947, a rule was added that allowed a drop kick that is used as a return kick to score a field goal. In 1965, the return kick was eliminated. If 68 of those 80 years of experience belonged to the white hat, he may have gotten those rule changes confused ???.
SOURCE : NFHS Handbook
I've said it in other situations, they didn't have 80 years of experience, they had 1 year of experience 80 times.
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The down is 100% the responsibility of the officials, not the coach. because that's what the referee said it is. The officials are the SOLE keeper of the correct down. Coaches have ZERO responsibility for the down. In legal terms, its called "detrimental reliance".
Thankfully, we're not in a courtroom, where far too often people are allowed to get themselves tied up in knots parsing words to mean whatever they want. We operate on interscholastic athletic fields, where hopefully players learn about accepting personal responsibilities, rather than deflecting them to others.
Coaches are SOLELY (usually) responsible for selecting which plays to call, which REQUIRES understanding the correct circumstances they're playing under. Knowing the circumstances, which includes questioning them when there is doubt, is the Coaches responsibility, and failing to do so rests with him.
In absolutely no way does that absolve game officials for failing to correctly satisfy their requirements of displaying correct information, but that is a separate failure, subject to separate and distinct consequences and it DOES NOT ABSOLVE the Coach for neglecting his responsibility of KNOWING the correct circumstances for which he is responsible to select the proper play for.
We all pursue perfection, and few if any EVER catch it. A major part of the game of football involves how we react, respond, learn from and avoid repeating mistakes. Mistakes WE make, even those resulting from the actions of others are NOT THE FAULT of those others, OUR mistakes are caused by OUR failure to react and respond to the circumstances we are presented with, and responsible to adjust for.
This interpretation, creating "do overs" does NOT improve or enhance the game, and hopefully will be corrected and reversed.
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I am obviously not looking at something the right way here and am getting confused, and could use a little help. The following was the first item on the 2015 NFHS Football Rules Interpretation paper the NFHS sent out:
SITUATION 1: Second down and
six. On the last play of the third period,
A38 runs for 3 yards. After the
play, the down-marker indicator is
flipped to fourth down. Following a
brief pause to ensure no reason to
defer ending the quarter, the referee
holds the ball over his head. Both
teams change ends of the field and the
chains are reversed. Before the ball is
snapped for the first play of the fourth
period, Team A’s coach recognizes the
down error. RULING: The third period
officially ended when the referee
held the ball over his head. The down
error may not be corrected. (5-1-1)
I am having trouble understanding their ruling that the down can not be corrected. Another play has not been run. The ball has not been put in play. We know it was 2nd down now it is third, even though the box man flipped the dial to the wrong down. Seems like a simple thing to flip the box back from 4 to the 3 that it should be. Any help in interpreting this would be appreciated.
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Kevin,
Our Association reviewed the same document and I agree with you, this is an easy fix on the field. If we officiate this play as written, we are asking for trouble. :!#
Maybe we are missing something. ???
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Maybe we are missing something. ???
I don't think that you are missing anything. This scenario ranks right up there with the "hash marks bisecting the yard lines".
I expect the NFHS to change this particular ruling before the season is over.
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I am obviously not looking at something the right way here and am getting confused, and could use a little help. The following was the first item on the 2015 NFHS Football Rules Interpretation paper the NFHS sent out:
SITUATION 1: Second down and
six. On the last play of the third period,
A38 runs for 3 yards. After the
play, the down-marker indicator is
flipped to fourth down. Following a
brief pause to ensure no reason to
defer ending the quarter, the referee
holds the ball over his head. Both
teams change ends of the field and the
chains are reversed. Before the ball is
snapped for the first play of the fourth
period, Team A’s coach recognizes the
down error. RULING: The third period
officially ended when the referee
held the ball over his head. The down
error may not be corrected. (5-1-1)
I am having trouble understanding their ruling that the down can not be corrected. Another play has not been run. The ball has not been put in play. We know it was 2nd down now it is third, even though the box man flipped the dial to the wrong down. Seems like a simple thing to flip the box back from 4 to the 3 that it should be. Any help in interpreting this would be appreciated.
I have raised the same question with our State interpreter and he agrees that the error is correctable. After all, we're just changing ends.
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PET PEVES:
-In baseball, when the wrong count or outs is on the scoreboard. Yes ,I know the ump is official BUT I want to be sure the players & coaches know before the ball is pitched = get the scoreboard operator's attention and get it corrected, even if I need to call time out.
-In football, when the downs marker is wrong.= OTO, first verify that you're right and he's wrong and get it corrected prior to new RFP. The entire crew should echo, with their fingers, before the RFP on every snap.
-Lima beans, NY Yankees, and the such....
PS :The new spiffy interpretations deals basically about the subject. NFHs.org>athletics>football>2015-16 rules interpretations.
ABSOLUTELY agree, at least about Lima Beans, and probably a good deal of "and such", but without the Yankees the Red Sox, long ago, would be playing their homegames in a really big, maybe domed, stadium somewhere on the West Coast.
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Doesn't the rule state "Shall have the authority" ? It doesn't say "Shall correct" I think it leaves a lot of consideration regarding impact.
Our crew depended on me, as Line Judge to "Boom out" down on every play, plus insure the box flipped. Maybe because of my big mouth. "First down! First down!" And watch the box. If the White Hat knew where we were LOS wise it helped on penalty enforcement as well. We just don't have those problems, plus our HL has the box man repeating my instructions as well.
Pardon the NCAA intrusion but the rule change in this rulebook this year created all kinds of "what ifs". Our language says the down "MAY be corrected." I verified this with Dr Redding...MAY means MAY , does not mean MUST or WILL. While I hope my crew never puts us in this situation, I am definitely not going to arbitrarily change the down if it could have a serious immediate impact on the game.
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I don't think that you are missing anything. This scenario ranks right up there with the "hash marks bisecting the yard lines".
I expect the NFHS to change this particular ruling before the season is over.
IMHO, this case is intended to illustrate that once the period has officially ended (R, or U if R has small hands) by holding ball high over ones head; errors that were correctable now become uncorrectable. Part of the brief discussion prior to ending the period is : "Do any of you guys or either coach see any errors?" That may be shortened to : "Any screw ups?" - if no then move on. While between the 1st & 2nd or 3rd & 4th periods may provide an easy correction, an issue might arise if the half ended on a screwed up down. An explanation to the coaches of : "Because the half ended on an incorrect 3rd & 8 instead of a 2nd & 8, we'll begin the 2nd half with an untimed down of 2nd & 8 to be followed - unless there is a penalty or TD - by the traditional kickoff." ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8] ??? :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'(
Morale of story :
DON'T SCREW UP THE DOWNS
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To me, this is no different than the crew noticing that the chains were placed wrong when changing ends of the field. This is something we absolutely need to correct.
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EVERYBODY noting (writing down) where the ball and chains is supposed to wind up, before anything is moved, and then verifying where they actually wind up should reduce problems.
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Correcting the chains, if an error was discovered during that series was also on the docket and made it thru committee for a floor vote. In our "campfire" meeting this play was thrown into the flames:
A, in a "hurry up" offense, moves the ball to B's 15 -1st & 10 when : (1) stakes are set; (2) A snaps the ball prior to RFP; (3) ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag DOG; (3) ball moved back to B's 20 but stakes remain @ 15; (4) 3 plays later, with 4th & 3 @ B's 8, U ,gaining energy from sNiCkErS sNiCkErS, realizes stakes should have been reset after DOG penalty as RFP had yet to sound; (5) umpire tells this secret to Mr. whitehat; Mr. Whitehat announces........
FIRST DOWN......
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It was decided then, and more vocally during the floor vote that this wasn't a door that we wanted to open pi1eOn.
Some may feel we should have skipped the down correction rule,too hEaDbAnG.
1-1-6 gives the referee authority to rule on things not covered.
Sometimes it may be best not to have rule coverage.
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A, in a "hurry up" offense, moves the ball to B's 15 -1st & 10 when : (1) stakes are set; (2) A snaps the ball prior to RFP; (3) ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag DOG; (3) ball moved back to B's 20 but stakes remain @ 15; (4) 3 plays later, with 4th & 3 @ B's 8, U ,gaining energy from sNiCkErS sNiCkErS, realizes stakes should have been reset after DOG penalty as RFP had yet to sound; (5) umpire tells this secreat to Mr. whitehat; Mr. Whitehat announces........
FIRST DOWN......
OK, let's make this a little more interesting:
A, in a "hurry up" offense, moves the ball to B's 15 -1st & 10 when : (1) stakes are set; (2) A snaps the ball prior to RFP; (3) DOG; (3) ball moved back to B's 20 but stakes remain @ 15;
1st down: A runs a play to the B9
"2nd" down: Incomplete pass
"3rd" down: Incomplete pass
"4th" down: A runs to the B4
Chains are reset and WH announces 1st down. But now the B coach points out the officials error when the chains weren't properly reset after the DOG foul.
What down is it?
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OK, let's make this a little more interesting:
A, in a "hurry up" offense, moves the ball to B's 15 -1st & 10 when : (1) stakes are set; (2) A snaps the ball prior to RFP; (3) DOG; (3) ball moved back to B's 20 but stakes remain @ 15;
1st down: A runs a play to the B9
"2nd" down: Incomplete pass
"3rd" down: Incomplete pass
"4th" down: A runs to the B4
Chains are reset and WH announces 1st down. But now the B coach points out the officials error when the chains weren't properly reset after the DOG foul.
What down is it?
We don't have a rule governing errors in chains, so referee would have to rule under the authority of 1-1-6 and attempt to keep his ruling equitable. A ended up moving the ball 16 yards to make a first down as he had to mistakenly gain 15 in lieu of 10 yards. IMHO, WH to B coach : "Ayuh, you're right that they had to gain 15 yards by our mistake instead of 10, but your team couldn't hold 'em. What sez' you griping about nAnA." .....Sometimes it may be best not having rule coverage, just common sense. ;)
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What sez' you griping about nAnA."
I'm griping that's it's not now 1st down, it's 4th down. When they moved to the B9 on first down, they got a new first down, and you messed up the down. What you called 2nd and 3rd were actually 1st and 2nd. They ran 3rd down, which you claim awarded them a 1st down. It's not 1st down, it's 4 down!
Now, please correct the down under the new NFHS down correction procedure.
That's what I'm griping about!
And before anyone gets all upset, I'm trying to facetiously show that this may be either the dumbest rule or the dumbest, most unworkable interpretation to come out of the FED committee since, well, last year.
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mistakes and oversights are best corrected by fairly applied, impartial efforts to minimize, or reverse, any damages caused directly by the mistake or oversight, that create minimal consequences of their own.
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I'm griping that's it's not now 1st down, it's 4th down. When they moved to the B9 on first down, they got a new first down, and you messed up the down. What you called 2nd and 3rd were actually 1st and 2nd. They ran 3rd down, which you claim awarded them a 1st down. It's not 1st down, it's 4 down!
Now, please correct the down under the new NFHS down correction procedure.
That's what I'm griping about!
And before anyone gets all upset, I'm trying to facetiously show that this may be either the dumbest rule or the dumbest, most unworkable interpretation to come out of the FED committee since, well, last year.
IMHO, the downs proceeded correctly (1..2..3...4....1) but the chains were in error. No rule on correcting chains = 1-1-6..the "no rule" rule. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)
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OK, let's make this a little more interesting:
A, in a "hurry up" offense, moves the ball to B's 15 -1st & 10 when : (1) stakes are set; (2) A snaps the ball prior to RFP; (3) DOG; (3) ball moved back to B's 20 but stakes remain @ 15;
1st down: A runs a play to the B9
"2nd" down: Incomplete pass
"3rd" down: Incomplete pass
"4th" down: A runs to the B4
Chains are reset and WH announces 1st down. But now the B coach points out the officials error when the chains weren't properly reset after the DOG foul.
What down is it?
Rule 5-1- (CB 5.1.2E Comment) tell us that when a dead ball foul is committed prior to the next ready for play, the penalty is enforced prior to setting the chains; and the subsequent first down is to be 1/10. So in AB's play:
1. A made the line to gain = = 1/10 for A from B15;
2. DB Illegal snap (PRIOR TO THE READY) moves the ball AND THE CHAINS (if correctly handled) to the B20 = 1/10 for A from B20. Line to gain should now be the B10.
3. So, after A runs the FIRST of the 4 plays that AB lists, they HAVE ALREADY reached the required LTG - regardless of where the chains were improperly set. AND...
4. CB 5.1.1B tells us that improperly set chains are correctable only until the next legal snap.
5. So AB is correct that after the "discovery" that the chains were improperly set (which now has no bearing), and before the current series of downs has ended, under the new rule, the R has the ability to correct the down error; and it should be 4th and goal for A at the B4.
.....I think :!# hEaDbAnG cRaZy
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And before anyone gets all upset, I'm trying to facetiously show that this may be either the dumbest rule or the dumbest, most unworkable interpretation to come out of the FED committee since, well, last year.
+1
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Rule 5-1- (CB 5.1.2E Comment) tell us that when a dead ball foul is committed prior to the next ready for play, the penalty is enforced prior to setting the chains; and the subsequent first down is to be 1/10. So in AB's play:
1. A made the line to gain = = 1/10 for A from B15;
2. DB Illegal snap (PRIOR TO THE READY) moves the ball AND THE CHAINS (if correctly handled) to the B20 = 1/10 for A from B20. Line to gain should now be the B10.
3. So, after A runs the FIRST of the 4 plays that AB lists, they HAVE ALREADY reached the required LTG - regardless of where the chains were improperly set. AND...
4. CB 5.1.1B tells us that improperly set chains are correctable only until the next legal snap.
5. So AB is correct that after the "discovery" that the chains were improperly set (which now has no bearing), and before the current series of downs has ended, under the new rule, the R has the ability to correct the down error; and it should be 4th and goal for A at the B4.
.....I think :!# hEaDbAnG cRaZy
I'm not a football ref, but I love to lurk and I love good logic problems. The only information I'm working with here is AB's scenario and Curious's comments on it. Any rules errors are from pure ignorance.
1. Chains are set at the B15 and the line to gain is the B5.
2. DOG foul occurs before the RFP.
3. Line of Scrimmage is properly moved to the B20. Chains are improperly left at the B15. LtG is properly B10, improperly shown as B5.
1/10 @ B20 gains 11 yards to B9 for what should be a first down but is improperly shown as 4 yards short of LtG. (Is this the next legal snap or the down in which the chains were incorrectly set? I'm assuming the later.)
4. The proper down is 1st Down @ B9. The down shown is 2nd. The LtG is properly the goal line but improperly shown as the B5.
1/G (shown as 2/4) is an incomplete pass.
5. The chains are sanitized under 5.1.1B and the LtG changes from the goal line to the 4.
2/4 (shown as 3/4) is an incomplete pass.
3/4 (shown as 4/4) is a gain of 5 yards to B4.
The result of the play is First and Goal, despite the error in downs and incorrectly set chains.
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.....Sometimes it may be best not having rule coverage, just common sense. ;)
The problem with using the term "common sense" is that it is often not common and/or sensible! Examples available upon request.
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In 5.1.1B : "Erroneously, the chains are set before enforcement of a dead ball foul instead of following enforcement. Up to what point can this be corrected? RULING: Until the ball is legally snapped. After that point it is too late." = The correction would have to be made before A snapped the ball from B's 20 w/1st & 15. Once that play has ran, the statute of limitations for correcting the chains has passed.