Author Topic: PSK  (Read 45267 times)

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GoGoGo

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PSK
« on: March 14, 2011, 08:16:10 AM »
Let's discuss PSK because I disagree with my Rules Interpreter.

When does the window for PSK open and close?
When can you have a foul for PSK?

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: PSK
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2011, 09:09:48 AM »
Don't know what your "dispute" is about, but NF: 2-16-h spells out the 5 requirements necessary for PSK enforcement.  What may be helpful is to recall the reasoning behind creating a PSK enforcement.  Essentially, that the defensive team had accomplished it's task and had forced the offensive team to relinquish possession by choosing to kick the ball. 

Since a kick is a loose ball, and the basic spot for a loose ball foul is the previous spot and repeating the down, the consenus was that considering fouls committed by Team B after the ball had been kicked, being considered loose ball fouls prior to an actual change of team possession, provided an excessve penalty to "B". 

The conclusion was that Team "B", although responsible for their foul and should be held accountable by paying a reasonable yardage penalty, should not be deprived of the benefit of forcing Team "A" to relinquish possession of the ball, byt their superior and foul free play.  Conversely, it was concluded that Team A, having been defended into deciding to volumtarily give up possession of the ball, did not earn the right to have possession awarded to them because of any foul B committed after the kick "crossed the expanded NZ".

GoGoGo

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Re: PSK
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2011, 09:37:43 AM »
The dispute is when the window for PSK opens.

Does a PSK fouls start at the snap or when the ball is kicked? Actually he said PSK starts after the ball is kicked and crossed the NZ.

I understand the PSK window to be from the snap until it is possessed by rule, goes OOB, or goes into the EZ.

Mike L

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Re: PSK
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2011, 12:48:27 PM »
The dispute is when the window for PSK opens.

Does a PSK fouls start at the snap or when the ball is kicked? Actually he said PSK starts after the ball is kicked and crossed the NZ.

I understand the PSK window to be from the snap until it is possessed by rule, goes OOB, or goes into the EZ.

I'm not sure about the current case book number since what I have here at the office is the 2009 book, but your rules interpreter should read 10.4.3 sit G. You are correct, the "window" opens at the snap.

jjseikel

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Re: PSK
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2011, 01:03:54 PM »
Don't know what your "dispute" is about, but NF: 2-16-h spells out the 5 requirements necessary for PSK enforcement.  What may be helpful is to recall the reasoning behind creating a PSK enforcement.  Essentially, that the defensive team had accomplished it's task and had forced the offensive team to relinquish possession by choosing to kick the ball. 

Since a kick is a loose ball, and the basic spot for a loose ball foul is the previous spot and repeating the down, the consenus was that considering fouls committed by Team B after the ball had been kicked, being considered loose ball fouls prior to an actual change of team possession, provided an excessve penalty to "B". 

The conclusion was that Team "B", although responsible for their foul and should be held accountable by paying a reasonable yardage penalty, should not be deprived of the benefit of forcing Team "A" to relinquish possession of the ball, byt their superior and foul free play.  Conversely, it was concluded that Team A, having been defended into deciding to volumtarily give up possession of the ball, did not earn the right to have possession awarded to them because of any foul B committed after the kick "crossed the expanded NZ".

After all that and still no answer.

Quote
Does a PSK fouls start at the snap or when the ball is kicked?

GoGo,
... at the snap.

GoGoGo

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Re: PSK
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2011, 01:15:56 PM »
Jaybird and Mike L- Thanks.


Offline HLinNC

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Re: PSK
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2011, 08:21:01 PM »
I believe what he (the supervisor) is thinking is 2010 case book play 10.4.3 (B) where K has the ball at their own 40 yard line and R10 holds K11 at the K42?

Perhaps he is confusing the kick crossing the ENZ with the R foul occurring in the ENZ?

Offline Ump33

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Re: PSK
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2011, 06:29:35 AM »
The dispute is when the window for PSK opens.

Does a PSK fouls start at the snap or when the ball is kicked? Actually he said PSK starts after the ball is kicked and crossed the NZ.

I understand the PSK window to be from the snap until it is possessed by rule, goes OOB, or goes into the EZ.

GoGoGo,

Sounds like your Rules Interpreter is stuck in the year 2003 when PSK first came into NFHS play. When the NFHS adopted PSK, there was indeed a "window" that the foul by R was after the ball was kicked and before the kick ended. The "window" was removed in 2004.

As others have stated ... PSK enforcement starts at the snap.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: PSK
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2011, 09:07:28 AM »
Here's the problem with "window opens at the snap" vs "window opens when the kick crosses the NZ":

Yes, PSK enforcement starts with fouls after the snap, IF there is a kick that crosses the NZ.

So yes, "the window opens at the snap", but, there is no window unless there is a kick that crosses the NZ.

So philosophically, how can window that does not yet exist, actually open?

LarryW60

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Re: PSK
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2011, 10:02:03 AM »
Also, how can you have a POST-SCRIMMAGE KICK foul before there is even a scrimmage kick?  It just doesn't make sense.  That's probably where the Rules Interpreter is getting hung up on.  As we all (should) know, "Post-Scrimmage Kick" in this sense means "after the ball is scrimmage kicked".  Sounds like the rule went and included the part of the play that is "PRE-Scrimmage Kick".

For those that want to say that it is a post-scrimmage kick definition and not a post-scrimmage kick foul, if the period covered by the rule includes the entire down up until the kick ends, why is the word "Post" in there?  Why isn't it just a "Scrimmage Kick" rule?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 12:37:52 PM by Fadamor »

Mike L

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Re: PSK
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2011, 11:58:03 AM »
Here's the problem with "window opens at the snap" vs "window opens when the kick crosses the NZ":

Yes, PSK enforcement starts with fouls after the snap, IF there is a kick that crosses the NZ.

So yes, "the window opens at the snap", but, there is no window unless there is a kick that crosses the NZ.

So philosophically, how can window that does not yet exist, actually open?

Windows always exist, it's a question of whether they are passed thru.

fbrefga

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Re: PSK
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2011, 12:39:24 PM »
They could run a screen whether the window is closed or open!   LOL  (I know.  It wasn't that funny and don't quit my day job.)

LarryW60

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Re: PSK
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2011, 12:40:33 PM »
It would pane me greatly to frame a reply to that.  :-X

Offline James

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Re: PSK
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2011, 04:20:09 AM »
why is the word "Post" in there?  Why isn't it just a "Scrimmage Kick" rule?
Quite simply the Post modifier (or adjective, or what ever it is called in grammer terms) applies to enforcement, not kick.
It could also be writen 'Enforcement after a scrimmage kick'.

LarryW60

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Re: PSK
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2011, 07:54:03 AM »
Quite simply the Post modifier (or adjective, or what ever it is called in grammer terms) applies to enforcement, not kick.
It could also be writen 'Enforcement after a scrimmage kick'.
Well, no.  If they were talking about enforcement and not the kick itself, then the period during the down that occurs AFTER the kick has ended would get included as well, because enforcement doesn't happen until the DOWN ends.  Not EVERY scrimmage kick ends with the ball being downed by K downfield and PSK rules do not apply to any fouls occurring during a run-back.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: PSK
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2011, 09:40:10 AM »
Can someone point me to where I can find the definition of "window" in the NFHS code? If not, perhaps it's just another of those terms we all use from time to time to try and explain a cncept that means dfferent things to different people and really has no specific meaning, as related to football .

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: PSK
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2011, 11:53:52 AM »
Can someone point me to where I can find the definition of "window" in the NFHS code? If not, perhaps it's just another of those terms we all use from time to time to try and explain a cncept that means dfferent things to different people and really has no specific meaning, as related to football .

Well, it's based on common sense and reason rather than a strict reading of the words on the page.   ;)

fbrefga

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Re: PSK
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2011, 12:16:02 PM »
Can someone point me to where I can find the definition of "window" in the NFHS code? If not, perhaps it's just another of those terms we all use from time to time to try and explain a cncept that means dfferent things to different people and really has no specific meaning, as related to football .
It's transparent!

LarryW60

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Re: PSK
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2011, 09:04:34 AM »
Quote
Can someone point me to where I can find the definition of "window" in the NFHS code? If not, perhaps it's just another of those terms we all use from time to time to try and explain a cncept that means dfferent things to different people and really has no specific meaning, as related to football .

"Window" has a specific meaning and is used in everyday English in this manner.  We can't have the rulebook providing definitions for every word in the English language.  If it did then it would become a dictionary rather than a rule book.  Try this definition from dictionary.com:

Quote
WINDOW...
6. a period of time regarded as highly favorable for initiating or completing something: Investors have a window of perhaps six months before interest rates rise.


In football, a PSK window would be the time during which PSK rules are in effect.  Similarly, an FBZ window would be the time during which the free blocking zone exists.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 09:10:23 AM by Fadamor »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: PSK
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2011, 04:38:45 PM »

"Window" has a specific meaning and is used in everyday English in this manner.  We can't have the rulebook providing definitions for every word in the English language.  If it did then it would become a dictionary rather than a rule book.  Try this definition from dictionary.com:
In football, a PSK window would be the time during which PSK rules are in effect.  Similarly, an FBZ window would be the time during which the free blocking zone exists.

Excellent suggestion for a definition, but that doesn't mean it works for everyone.  There seems to be more than enough trouble gaining universal agreement on specific terms that are defined in the NFHS code, without making presumptions about terms that are not defined. 

Transparency is great, and I'm a firm believer in applying common sense to rule interpretations, but using, and worse debating, terms that are NOT defined by rule just seems like a road leading nowhere.

jjseikel

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Re: PSK
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2011, 10:25:00 PM »
Can someone point me to where I can find the definition of "window" in the NFHS code? If not, perhaps it's just another of those terms we all use from time to time to try and explain a cncept that means dfferent things to different people and really has no specific meaning, as related to football .

 ::)

jjseikel

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Re: PSK
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2011, 10:26:03 PM »
Excellent suggestion for a definition, but that doesn't mean it works for everyone.  There seems to be more than enough trouble gaining universal agreement on specific terms that are defined in the NFHS code, without making presumptions about terms that are not defined. 

Transparency is great, and I'm a firm believer in applying common sense to rule interpretations, but using, and worse debating, terms that are NOT defined by rule just seems like a road leading nowhere.

 LOL

LarryW60

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Re: PSK
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2011, 08:44:58 AM »
Excellent suggestion for a definition, but that doesn't mean it works for everyone.  There seems to be more than enough trouble gaining universal agreement on specific terms that are defined in the NFHS code, without making presumptions about terms that are not defined.  

Transparency is great, and I'm a firm believer in applying common sense to rule interpretations, but using, and worse debating, terms that are NOT defined by rule just seems like a road leading nowhere.
Maybe I missed something, but where exactly is the debate on the meaning of "window"?  You're the only person that seems to be having an issue with the meaning of this word when it is applied to a span of time.

A rule book should define terms that are specific to the game it governs.  It should NEVER start defining words that should have been part of a person's basic education.  As I said previously, if it did THAT then it would become as unwieldly as a dictionary.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 08:49:07 AM by Fadamor »

jjseikel

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Re: PSK
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2011, 12:02:44 PM »
... where exactly is the debate on the meaning of "window"?

Between Alf's ears!

RickKY

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Re: PSK
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2011, 02:02:03 PM »
Here's the problem with "window opens at the snap" vs "window opens when the kick crosses the NZ":

Yes, PSK enforcement starts with fouls after the snap, IF there is a kick that crosses the NZ.

So yes, "the window opens at the snap", but, there is no window unless there is a kick that crosses the NZ.

So philosophically, how can window that does not yet exist, actually open?

There are no PSK fouls, only PSK enforcement of fouls.  Flag the foul when it occurs.  Enforce it after the down ends.  It may or may not be a PSK enforcement depending on the requirements for PSK enforcement.  If the fouls occurs after the snap and before the kick ends, it is a candidate for PSK enforcement, depending on other action during the down.    All the PSK requirements must be met to use PSK enforcement.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 02:05:01 PM by RickKY »