Author Topic: What is your ruling?  (Read 2265 times)

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Offline ElvisLives

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What is your ruling?
« on: December 24, 2025, 04:08:45 PM »
Kickoff, A-35, 3:00 (4), A=21, B=24.
After receiving the ball from the Back Judge, potential kicker A11 places the ball on a tee at the right hash mark. As A11 moves to the A-30, the Referee sounds his whistle and signals the ball ready for play. After a few seconds, A11 returns to the ball, picks up the ball and the tee, and runs to the mid-point of the A-35, where he sets the tee on the ground (on the yard line), sets the ball on the tee, and very quickly kicks the ball toward a sideline. The ball bounds along the ground where A88 recovers the ball at the A-44 while grounded.
Ruling:

If there is a foul, specify: 1) what the foul may be, 2) when the foul occurs, 3) the penalty enforcement distance, 4) the penalty enforcement spot, and 5) the location of the succeeding spot (yard line and location between the hash marks (if regulated by rule)).

Might be differences of opinion, here, but, I do have the answer.  :)


Offline ETXZebra

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Re: What is your ruling?
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2025, 07:31:30 PM »
Illegal kick, dead ball foul, 5 yards from the succeeding spot. Ball may be relocated on the subsequent kick.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: What is your ruling?
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2025, 09:05:47 PM »
Illegal kick, dead ball foul, 5 yards from the succeeding spot. Ball may be relocated on the subsequent kick.

Dead-ball foul, yes. When does it become a foul?

Offline ETXZebra

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Re: What is your ruling?
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2025, 09:07:32 PM »
When the kicker relocates the ball?

Online Kalle

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Re: What is your ruling?
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2025, 06:04:06 AM »
I'd have a whistle and a flag when A11 obviously starts moving to a different location (he has the right to pick up the ball and the tee to reposition them at the same spot).

Offline ump_ben

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Re: What is your ruling?
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2025, 11:34:05 AM »
But doesn't he have the right to pick it up, wander to a new spot and then wander back and put it down at the same spot?  If so wouldn't you have to wait for him to put it down?

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: What is your ruling?
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2025, 12:14:01 PM »
I've been a NFHS guy, but this querstion came up several years ago from, a coach...

COACH: My kicker will tee the ball up so it falls off the tee. He will then pick it up and calls a teammate to hold it on the tee so it will stay. As he walks back to his advancing spot and the return team relaxes, his teammate will drop kick an onside kick.

ME : Actions or verbiage designed to confuse the opponents into believing there is a problem and a kick isn't imminent is beyound the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal. A USC would be charged to his coach

COACH : But my kicker has been praticing teeinmg up the ball so that it will fall off all summer.  :o

ME: Your kicker should look for a different hobby  8] .

Offline Etref

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Re: What is your ruling?
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2025, 12:52:09 PM »
I've been a NFHS guy, but this querstion came up several years ago from, a coach...

COACH: My kicker will tee the ball up so it falls off the tee. He will then pick it up and calls a teammate to hold it on the tee so it will stay. As he walks back to his advancing spot and the return team relaxes, his teammate will drop kick an onside kick.

ME : Actions or verbiage designed to confuse the opponents into believing there is a problem and a kick isn't imminent is beyound the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal. A USC would be charged to his coach

COACH : But my kicker has been praticing teeinmg up the ball so that it will fall off all summer.  :o

ME: Your kicker should look for a different hobby  8] .

😂
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: What is your ruling?
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2025, 02:11:44 PM »

Offline sj

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Re: What is your ruling?
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2025, 02:19:43 PM »
Since the foul is identified as an illegal kick, it seems to imply that you wouldn't shut it down until it's kicked. But that does seem you're asking for trouble though which makes an earlier shutdown make sense. Also, I'd argue that the enforcement spot in the play here would be at position 3 and it will be A KO @ A30 - Position 3.

Now a what-if. We had a special teams coach ask us this once. Can you use a rugby style punt action on a Safety kick? So say the punter is at position 2 when ball is blown ready for play. He angles to his right and when he kicks it he's at position 4. No other problems.

Offline MAFBRef

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Re: What is your ruling?
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2025, 03:02:26 PM »
By rule this is a dead ball foul. Enforce 5 yards from the A-35 to the A-30. For this free kick, the kicker may elect any spot between the hashes. 6-1-2a.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: What is your ruling?
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2025, 04:05:40 PM »
The truth is, we really don’t have 100% positive direction on WHEN it becomes a foul. But, the only AR related to this rule (6-1-2-VIII) has the kicker actually making contact with the ball with his foot. The ruling in that AR says nothing about exactly when to sound the whistle and stop the action. In that AR, the potential kicker is actually able to strike the ball with his foot before the action is stopped. That tells me that we need to let the action go until the potential kicker makes kicking contact with the ball.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Based on that, AND that 7-1-3-b fouls are, similarly, actions that become fouls when movement of the ball for an apparent snap begins (causing the ball to remain dead), I contend that we must let the action go until the moment the ball is acted upon to put it in play, which will allow Team A the maximum opportunity to avoid a foul by taking a charged team time out. But, if Shaw were to issue a ruling, AR, or edit the rule, for some other process, such as stopping the action and dropping a foul marker when a Team A player picks up the ball and moves it some significant distance and places it on the ground/tee, I would not have heartburn with that. Until then, I will sound my whistle, stop the action, and drop a foul marker when the potential kicker strikes the ball with his foot.
Of more concern, and was a point where at least one fellow official argued for a different result, is the location for the subsequent kick after the penalty for such an illegal kick has been completed. The differing official argued that Team A must put the ball in play at the spot where it was located for the original kick. His argument was based upon the fact that, for scrimmage downs, the succeeding spot or the previous spot are two-dimensional, i.e., the yard line AND the lateral position on/between the hash marks. For scrimmage downs, penalties that use those spots as the enforcement spot, will leave the ball at the same lateral location as it was when it was last declared ready for play.
On the other hand, I argued that 6-1-2-a allows Team A to locate the point of the kick anywhere they choose on/between the hash marks, even after an illegal kick penalty. (But, they can’t change that location after the first time they spot the ball after the ball is declared ready for play.)
To “cut to the chase,” I asked Shaw for a ruling, and he agreed that Team A is allowed to kick the ball from any point on/between the hash marks, even after a penalty for an illegal kick.
And that is what prompted this whole discussion.
End of story.

Offline MAFBRef

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Re: What is your ruling?
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2025, 10:19:26 AM »
Excellent brain exercise. Not something you normally worry about until that “oh shi…” moment when it actually occurs. Thank you for your always valued input.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: What is your ruling?
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2025, 03:07:45 PM »
Excellent brain exercise. Not something you normally worry about until that “oh shi…” moment when it actually occurs. Thank you for your always valued input.

BTW, this situation actually happened in a game played by NCAA rules (Texas High School) this season, which is what prompted this entire discussion. The crew interrupted the action well before the kicker could kick the ball, and penalized. As I indicated, I believe we should wait until the moment the kicker makes contact on the ball with his foot before interrupting the action and penalizing, to give Team A every chance to avoid a foul (by taking a charged team time out).
Although I can't say for certain, I believe the only reason this happened was because the game was being played on an NFL field with temporary NCAA hash marks, visibly, far fainter than the NFL hash marks. The kicker initially set up - for a potential on-side kick - on the NFL hash marks, then, after the ball was ready for play, he realized he could have placed the ball much further toward a sideline. So, he picked up the ball and tee, and move about halfway between the NFL and NCAA hash marks, set the tee and ball down, then moved to his pre-kick position. To his credit, the Back Judge recognized this as not being legal, and dropped his marker, sounded his whistle, stopped the action, and reported the foul. (But, oddly, he simply handed the ball to the kicker, pointed to the A-35, as in, "Now you are on the 35 instead of the 40" and walked away toward the sideline. He should have personally enforced the penalty, with the ball, then instructed the kicker to come back to him at the A-35, and made sure all Team A players were on the correct side of their new restraining line, THEN handed the kicker the ball, and hustled - not walked - to the sideline.)
But, I'm proud that he recognized the foul.   

Offline sj

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Re: What is your ruling?
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2025, 05:22:16 PM »
I see it now. I stand corrected. Thanks.

Offline Morningrise

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Re: What is your ruling?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2026, 11:38:02 AM »
I know the question was about the ruling rather than the officiating, but in practice, should we just holler at the kicker to leave the tee where it is? It would comport with our philosophy of doing extra preventative officiating on free kicks. We almost never blow it ready if a team has 10 or 12 players, and "We're not gonna have any DOGs on kickoffs" is standard pregame language at every level.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: What is your ruling?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2026, 12:53:56 PM »
I know the question was about the ruling rather than the officiating, but in practice, should we just holler at the kicker to leave the tee where it is? It would comport with our philosophy of doing extra preventative officiating on free kicks. We almost never blow it ready if a team has 10 or 12 players, and "We're not gonna have any DOGs on kickoffs" is standard pregame language at every level.

Yeah, I have been known to use ‘creative’ officiating to keep from having to enforce something after the fact, knowing fully well that making such a call, although completely righteous, would create an extended, and unfriendly, discussion with the offending team. In this instance, interrupting the game to check the ball, to make sure it was an approved ball for that team, would work quite well, to alert the kicker that, after the referee makes the ball ready for play, once he puts the ball on the tee on the ground, he is locked in to that spot to kick the ball. Problem solved, with less fuss and muss.