Author Topic: HL Screw UP  (Read 351 times)

Offline blandis

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HL Screw UP
« on: November 08, 2018, 11:24:23 PM »
   Here is a wacky one that I know will get some reaction from you all! In our association we have the HL (5-man) count offense with the R so that we don't miss illegal formation fouls (6-man line) when there are less than 11-players on offense.
   Having said that this is Round 1 of playoffs. We pregame that Flanks would not help their respective sideline team with the count of the number of players prior to the snap. Afterwards, yes, but we were not going to baby sit what is supposed to be the coach's responsibility particularly in playoffs.
   Having said that, 4th & 5 on the 50. K is in punt formation. The HL is to the R's right and has the defensive team's sideline. All of the sudden just prior to the snap The HL tells R's Head Coach that he only has 10 players on defense when in fact there were 11 (he didn't see the deep receiver). The extra player runs on just prior to the snap to make it 12 R players on the field and they all participate in the play. The R picks this up after the play and penalizes R for Illegal Participation resulting in a 15-yard penalty for a 1st down. Of course Team R's coach is irate but the R rationalized to him that it is the coach's responsibility to know what he has out on the field.

    Your opinions, please.

Online CalhounLJ

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Re: HL Screw UP
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2018, 07:23:44 AM »
In 5 or 7 man, our R (me) and U count the offense. H and L monitor the formation. If there’s a problem with the count, we communicate by radio to the wings so they can tell if the formation is legit. Under no circumstances do we ever communicate with the coaches, one of the reasons being this situation. IMO, at the very least you should replay the down because you have him the wrong information. Essentially your crew caused the foul.


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Offline TampaSteve

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Re: HL Screw UP
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2018, 07:54:49 AM »
In 5 or 7 man, our R (me) and U count the offense. H and L monitor the formation. If there’s a problem with the count, we communicate by radio to the wings so they can tell if the formation is legit. Under no circumstances do we ever communicate with the coaches, one of the reasons being this situation. IMO, at the very least you should replay the down because you have him the wrong information. Essentially your crew caused the foul.

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I would agree to both:
1-replay the down.
2-never, ever, ever tell coaches you got 10 or 12.  From the situation described, maybe he wanted to play with 10.
Conversely though, a fine courtsey is to remind a coach "make sure you have 11" if he is coming out of an injury timeout where one of his kids got hurt.

Offline FLAHL

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Re: HL Screw UP
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2018, 07:59:57 AM »
What does the U count?  He's in a better position to count A than the HL.  We have the R and U both count A.  I signal to the wings if we have 10.  I wouldn't suggest any communication with coaches while the ball is live or when the snap is imminent.  Yours is a perfect example of how this can come back to bite you.

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: HL Screw UP
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2018, 08:06:46 AM »
interesting point with signals and the radio.
The point is tipping off anyone something is amiss so adjustments can be made.

Radio is fine: but would/could someone on the sideline standing next to the wing pick up on what the wing there is saying and make an adjustment??
vs
Signals which should absolutely be discreet.

i.e. receiver covered: I've seen a U point out a receiver is covered along with some hand signal with his other hand. Goodness people listening on the radio knew the guy was covered.

Discreet signals are important.

Offline js in sc

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Re: HL Screw UP
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2018, 08:48:57 AM »
In our 5 man crews, the R & U count A.  We also alert the wings to covered potential receivers.
IMO discrete signals are fine, obvious signals such as a hand on the head and pointing to a covered receiver, or pointing to players as you count them with your hand on your flag are also fine.  If a coach sees this and has to call time out or another action to check or correct it  is on him, not me.  His assuming what you are doing is on him.  I consider this a form of preventive officiating, allowing a team to correct it's problem.  Also, if I am wrong, it is not my problem.  To tell a coach what you are doing places it on you.

Offline riffraft

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Re: HL Screw UP
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2018, 08:55:02 AM »
I agree with those that they only "fair" thing to do is replay the down.

As to the the H telling the coach, what I did when I worked the sideline is tell the coach he might want to count his player if there were 10 or 12 players on the field. That put the onus on him as to what to do. Could be even that was too much.

Online CalhounLJ

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Re: HL Screw UP
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2018, 09:02:09 AM »
The problem I have with communicating with the coaches on these matters is finding a place to stop. If you are going to help them with numbers are you also going to help them with formations? “Coach, you only have 6 on the line.” “Coach, you only have 4 numbered right.” Coach, 48 doesn’t have his mouthpiece in.” 

We have an effective means of communicating those infractions. It’s called a flag. 


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Offline refjeff

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Re: HL Screw UP
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2018, 09:49:32 AM »
In Ohio the R & U count A.  If we have 10, 11, or 12 we signal each other by hand and voice.  The wings have the formation, including receivers. 

On our crew, if they've got 10 I may tell them or the coach to count their players before the snap and definitely will after the snap. If they have 12 we will tell them and give them a chance to correct it or call time out.  Our crew will never let K or R kickoff with anything other than 11.

Every game we tell players to put their mouthpieces in, buckle their chin strap, fix their jersey, etc.  If the snap is iminent we call TO and send them off the field.


Online CalhounLJ

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Re: HL Screw UP
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2018, 09:54:55 AM »
That's exactly the way we work a game, with the exception of talking to the coaches. We use preventative officiating with the players all night. We never let them kick or receive with something other than 11, never let them snap with a mouthpiece dangling, and as far as possible, try to help them get lined up right. We constantly remind the big guys in the middle they are getting close to holding, or watch their mouths, or settle down.. All that is fine and good. But on the other hand, we are not supposed to be the coach's assistant either. it's not our job or our place to assist him with fundamental football stuff.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: HL Screw UP
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2018, 10:28:18 AM »
I am disappointed that someone should suggest that we shouldn't help the coaches.  After all, they offer help to us all the time. ::)

Online CalhounLJ

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Re: HL Screw UP
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2018, 10:29:21 AM »



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Online bawags06

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Re: HL Screw UP
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2018, 11:48:57 AM »
In northwest PA, our WH and U count the offense. BJ and LJ count defense. If WH or BJ get to 12, they recount. If they get to 12 again,  ^flag for a substitution infraction so it doesn't become illegal participation.

If they only count 10, (and they double check), they put both hands on their chest with fingers open to signify 10. If the wings see this, they know to look extra carefully for formation issues. If there is time (or before a free kick) WH or BJ will call out "Coach, count your players." Wings can echo this, but we don't tell them they have 10.

Offline SCHSref

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Re: HL Screw UP
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2018, 12:39:41 PM »
In our 5 man crews, the R & U count A.  We also alert the wings to covered potential receivers.
IMO discrete signals are fine, obvious signals such as a hand on the head and pointing to a covered receiver, or pointing to players as you count them with your hand on your flag are also fine.  If a coach sees this and has to call time out or another action to check or correct it  is on him, not me.  His assuming what you are doing is on him.  I consider this a form of preventive officiating, allowing a team to correct it's problem.  Also, if I am wrong, it is not my problem.  To tell a coach what you are doing places it on you.

BJ and LJ count B. L counts nothing...to much to do according to the SC mechanics manual. We also hold a closed fist to indicate covered up.  I always tell a player on the field to count his players if they don't have 11 or more than 11.
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Offline VALJ

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Re: HL Screw UP
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2018, 03:11:13 PM »
"Count your players, coach."

If that's all you say, you don't run the risk of stepping into this pile of doo doo.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: HL Screw UP
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2018, 08:32:52 AM »
Quote
L counts nothing

Same here.  HL only needs to be able to count to four (downs and backs).  That means I get to leave my shoes on.