Author Topic: Points Overhaul  (Read 32420 times)

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Offline rsquare

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2012, 04:30:28 PM »
Yep
and those 1400 points are as good as those S & H green stamps... LOL
Now I am really dating myself pi1eOn

Offline Joe Stack

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2012, 05:03:17 PM »
I thought the game requirement for D1 and D2 was reasonable. If officials had problems getting the games in, you had other problems -- some the fault of the officials and some the fault of the chapter. I've worked in big chapters and small chapters and both have one thing in common: when the phone rings, you take the assignment. I understand that there are some saying the phone isn't ringing, but if you're turning down V games (and I mean for other than legit reasons), don't complain about the numbers. I've been to a lot of places I didn't want to go and didn't get paid enough to be there. But I went, and I'm probably a better official because of it.

Do the changes take place immediately or do they start next year? In other words, if someone turned in what amounts to 360 points but only had 35 games, are they now D2?

Offline Joe Stack

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2012, 05:21:21 PM »
Quote
Many officials had the points to move into D2 or D1 but they didn't have the number of varsity games that was required.

I understand that Houston has had some issues with this, but I have to wonder how big an issue it was around the state. I work in a big chapter and can only think of one person who was pretty well capped at D2 and I'm not even sure he's worked any games in the last decade -- just pulled chains. He had some issues that made chain assignments better for him, but is there really anyone at 400-450 or greater without 40 games? 750 or 800 or greater without 75? 360 with only 35 games isn't a huge cause for concern since it will be taken care of in one season.

To me, the best idea not adopted is to allow 1 point for HS subvarsity games. When I needed game points a few years ago, I worked a lot of 7th grade games -- 6 minute quarters and 3 games a night was a cinch. More points and money than the Thursday night JV games -- which I worked anyway -- but not as good for training and experience.

Offline clearwall

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2012, 09:22:01 PM »
This whole discussion is a moot point. Nothing will ever change, the "old guard" will continue their stranglehold on the best games and lock out the younger officials just because "thats what (they) did when they started." You want to know how to retain young officials? Stop f***ing with young officials. No chapter will accept that truth, and so nothing ever changes.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2012, 11:13:29 AM »
Define "good games".

Offline Etref

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2012, 11:43:10 AM »
This whole discussion is a moot point. Nothing will ever change, the "old guard" will continue their stranglehold on the best games and lock out the younger officials just because "thats what (they) did when they started." You want to know how to retain young officials? Stop f***ing with young officials. No chapter will accept that truth, and so nothing ever changes.


All games shold be considered "good games". I am a firm believer in moving the younger guys into crews with proper training. I do it with my crew. But taking a first year guy and throwing him to the wolves does him no good.
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline TexDoc

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2012, 12:37:38 PM »
Define "good games".

A game not played at Alamo Stadium!   LOL LOL LOL

Sorry, I could not resist.

rickref

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2012, 12:44:03 PM »
Define "good games".

Games where your Secretary magically has the clairvoyance enough to know it will be a close one and competitive prior to it being played.

Offline Coby

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2012, 12:57:37 PM »
This whole discussion is a moot point. Nothing will ever change, the "old guard" will continue their stranglehold on the best games and lock out the younger officials just because "thats what (they) did when they started." You want to know how to retain young officials? Stop f***ing with young officials. No chapter will accept that truth, and so nothing ever changes.

While I understand where you are coming from I dont think the lockout of games is entirely true.  I do completely agree that the chapters will not accept the truth so nothing will change.  For instance a couple of years back when they were talking about how to get young officials involved the big move by the state was to allow individuals under the age of 18 to become associate members to pull chains.  Really :-\!!!! That was the big policy change.  While the new varsity points is a better move it is still ignoring the elephant in the room.

Offline Joe Stack

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2012, 05:34:02 PM »
Here's a system that I think would work -- it would balance expectations with the need for experience. Smaller chapters would have to adjust for their needs.

1st year: subvarsity and chains; try to get as much high school game experience as possible;

2nd year: 6 man games; continue with subvarsity;

3rd -5th year: higher level 6 man games, private schools, lower level UIL games;

6th year: eligible for 4a/5a crew.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2012, 10:36:26 PM »
Another change that I forgot to mention that may help get some guys into more games is that "double dipping" will no longer be allowed.  For example if you go out and work a varsity game on Saturday at 12 pm. you will not be allowed to work another varsity game that day.  An exception is allowed if that "double dip" would be to cover a 6 man football game.  Some of the smaller chapters have trouble covering all their games and at times they have to work 2 games in 1 day.  But, no more working a 5A game and then driving down the road to work another 11 man game that same day. 

Offline clearwall

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2012, 11:14:51 PM »
Look, not trying to belittle the seasoned vets here because Im sure all of y'all are like the older gents in my chapter, really great guys  and all. However, the mentality is what it is. "I had to bust my IDIOT for 10 years to get a varsity assignment, so should everyone coming up." That's just how it is and that's the reason you lose 75% of young officials after three years. You can defend it all you want, I'm just a silly little D4 shouting the truth. Ignore it if you want, but dont complain that you cant understand why people leave.

One major change that needs to happen in some form or fashion: officials who physically cannot perform(not in the gutter sense) on the field any longer. There needs to be a mechanism that encourages them to remain as valued assets but also gets them off the field. I know my chapter has talked about game evaluators and such, i think that'd be the PERFECT role. The chapter can pay their expenses and maybe a small stipend to watch the games and evaluate the crew. Even injured officials could do it and earn game points while being sidelined.

Offline TexDoc

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2012, 10:05:17 AM »
Another change that I forgot to mention that may help get some guys into more games is that "double dipping" will no longer be allowed.  For example if you go out and work a varsity game on Saturday at 12 pm. you will not be allowed to work another varsity game that day.  An exception is allowed if that "double dip" would be to cover a 6 man football game.  Some of the smaller chapters have trouble covering all their games and at times they have to work 2 games in 1 day.  But, no more working a 5A game and then driving down the road to work another 11 man game that same day.

While I fully understand and agree with this rule, especially in light of one chapter sending a crew to work a playoff game in SA then drive up to Austin to work another one that day, there will be exceptions to this rule.  Back in 1998 when San Antonio had horrible flooding, many games were canceled.  I cannot recall all of the circumstances, but I worked a game the following Friday at 3 PM, drove across town and worked another one because we simply didn't have the bodies to cover all of the games.

Offline TexDoc

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2012, 10:15:14 AM »
Look, not trying to belittle the seasoned vets here because Im sure all of y'all are like the older gents in my chapter, really great guys  and all. However, the mentality is what it is. "I had to bust my IDIOT for 10 years to get a varsity assignment, so should everyone coming up." That's just how it is and that's the reason you lose 75% of young officials after three years. You can defend it all you want, I'm just a silly little D4 shouting the truth. Ignore it if you want, but dont complain that you cant understand why people leave.

One major change that needs to happen in some form or fashion: officials who physically cannot perform(not in the gutter sense) on the field any longer. There needs to be a mechanism that encourages them to remain as valued assets but also gets them off the field. I know my chapter has talked about game evaluators and such, i think that'd be the PERFECT role. The chapter can pay their expenses and maybe a small stipend to watch the games and evaluate the crew. Even injured officials could do it and earn game points while being sidelined.

Clear, this is the same discussion we had 20+ years ago when I was young and not nearly and big and could still move pretty good.  Simple fact is, an official with 3 or 4 years experience is not ready for 4A and 5A quality football.  When you get a game of this caliber with this little experience, you wind up getting scratched by the coaches.  I've seen it several times.  I think officials at this level of experience are certainly ready for varsity games, but perhaps at the 6 man, private school and lower classifications.  After working there for a few years, then yes, time to move up to the higher quality games.  You absolutely cannot discount experience when it comes to officiating.  Coaches know many of the older officials, feel comfortable with them and want to use them.  A good evaluation program may go a long way in helping identify younger/newer officials that really are ready to move up, but that's expensive and time consuming.

Being a gazelle on the field can help and hurt you.  I have seen officials that over hustle to perhaps prove something, who knows what (that they can move maybe) and look ridiculous.  Patience in officiating is something gained with experience.  And, the most problems we have on the football field is when a young official gets on the field with a young coach.  You cannot discount experience and patience.

I do agree that if someone is physically unfit to work as an official, they should not be on the field.  That has nothing to do with age or experience.  I also fully realize that just because one official is older, might have slowed a few steps and put on a few pounds, that does not at all make him a lesser official to the young guy that moves like the wind and hasn't a clue as to what he's doing.  The rule book and mechanics of what we do are probably the most complicated of any sport in the world, and you don't learn them in 4 or 5 years to point of your full potential.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 10:22:44 AM by TexDoc »

Offline clearwall

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2012, 11:30:39 AM »
Clear, this is the same discussion we had 20+ years ago when I was young and not nearly and big and could still move pretty good.  Simple fact is, an official with 3 or 4 years experience is not ready for 4A and 5A quality football.  When you get a game of this caliber with this little experience, you wind up getting scratched by the coaches.  I've seen it several times.  I think officials at this level of experience are certainly ready for varsity games, but perhaps at the 6 man, private school and lower classifications.  After working there for a few years, then yes, time to move up to the higher quality games.  You absolutely cannot discount experience when it comes to officiating.  Coaches know many of the older officials, feel comfortable with them and want to use them.  A good evaluation program may go a long way in helping identify younger/newer officials that really are ready to move up, but that's expensive and time consuming.

Being a gazelle on the field can help and hurt you.  I have seen officials that over hustle to perhaps prove something, who knows what (that they can move maybe) and look ridiculous.  Patience in officiating is something gained with experience.  And, the most problems we have on the football field is when a young official gets on the field with a young coach.  You cannot discount experience and patience.

I do agree that if someone is physically unfit to work as an official, they should not be on the field.  That has nothing to do with age or experience.  I also fully realize that just because one official is older, might have slowed a few steps and put on a few pounds, that does not at all make him a lesser official to the young guy that moves like the wind and hasn't a clue as to what he's doing.  The rule book and mechanics of what we do are probably the most complicated of any sport in the world, and you don't learn them in 4 or 5 years to point of your full potential.

I completely respect your opinion and tenure and experience here. I dont disagree with you entirely, but I also dont agree entirely. I think there are just as many D1s and 2s that dont belong on a 4A-5A field but are getting those types of games because of their classification. Are you of the opinion that NO ONE with 4-5 years of experience could hack it at that level? I sure dont. One of the commenters on this board is a D4 that I work with that I think could out-officiate the pants off a few of the D1s that I've seen. I've also worked with D1s that I know are on one of the "better" crews that was blowing IW and downing players on my sideline while he was working at the R in a JV game. THAT'S the problem I have. I'm not advocating a system that lets inexperienced officials get thrown to the wolves before their ready, but the current setup does not adequately reward the best skilled officials. And that is the answer to the original question. People who deserve the recognition and the opportunity(young ones included) are not given the chance until they've "put in their time."

Offline Coby

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2012, 11:48:26 AM »
The system in place really is not that bad.  To make it better it will cost a lot of money.  Talking to coaches that I currently work with; back in the day they had to take an officiating class in college.  I know Houston does a very very limited college outreach.  Does anyone else do a college outreach?  I did hear through the grapevine that at the last presidents meeting they actually looked at state demographics.  I appreciate that they are now atleast looking at data to make a decision.  I dont agree that their actions will fix the problem but it is a start.  If any of the TASO VIP's are reading this please email me the presentation so I can look at it.

ATXMike

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2012, 03:24:01 PM »
Hello fellow zebras!  New to the board and just finished my first year of officiating.  REALLY wished I had done it earlier but oh well, I'm glad to be doing it now.

As a newer official I'll throw my 2 cents in on this topic.  Glad to hear that scrimmages will be uncapped now.  As a new official I think any opportunity to see AND work live plays, especially the 4A/5A level, is worth at least something.  I think what helped me get more comfortable was working the 6 or more scrimmages last fall and see the speed of those 5A guys up close.  It really helped slow down the game.  I can't wait till the spring ball starts up to get back out on the field more.

The classroom points are great and all, but if I had to choose one over the other I'd keep the uncapped scrimmages for sure. 

Offline Welpe

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2012, 04:02:25 PM »
Welcome aboard, ATXMike! Hope you enjoy your stay here though you may want to consider a name change lest somebody confuses you with "that other" TXMike of infamous notority on this forum.  ;D

Offline TXMike

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2012, 08:06:55 PM »
Yep, good chance you will get strung up by some (like those weenie soccer refs) who are so easily offended.  They are gonna accuse you of being my alter ego.  Maybe we can play good cop-bad cop. 

El Macman

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #44 on: February 29, 2012, 06:32:23 AM »
I would find it disturbing and frightening to find out ATXMike is/was in law enforcement. Say it ain't so... We already have the "...bad cop...".  8]

Offline Welpe

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #45 on: February 29, 2012, 07:16:04 AM »
Hey as long as he isn't a Fed...

Hopefully it's not "Bad Cop - Worse Cop"!

Offline Arbitrator

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #46 on: February 29, 2012, 10:03:06 AM »
Hey as long as he isn't a Fed...

Hopefully it's not "Bad Cop - Worse Cop"!

 ^flag

Now watch out what you say about Fed's! They still have some pretty good people despite the fact that I'm retired from there. Now if our new member happens to be U. S. Treasury, then I'd be absolutely thrilled to play "good revenuer/bad revenuer" with him!  z^

Offline Welpe

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #47 on: February 29, 2012, 12:27:02 PM »
I have nothing against the Feds in general but it's always fun to poke Mike with a sharp stick.  :sTiR:

ATXMike

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #48 on: February 29, 2012, 02:06:33 PM »
Sorry to disappoint you guys but I'm not in law enforcement, I'm in insurance. 

Offline rsquare

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Re: Points Overhaul
« Reply #49 on: February 29, 2012, 04:06:39 PM »
Glad to have you - kinda thunk was that Mike Atkinson??
If he said farmer, etc then I knew.
I would have been amazed if it was Atkinson.
Next thing you would know Mike would be "tweetin".
A lot of guys are in insurance...
Good fella - State Farmer - Ed Thompson from Pearland btw is making a run for the state house as a state rep.
So if any of you guys are down Pearland, Alvin, Brazoria Co. and yse Manvel way you might want to throw some support for a fellow official and mighty good man.. ^good