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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: golfingref on November 29, 2014, 08:18:11 PM
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This occurred in Oklahoma quarter final playoff game last night.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepage3/ossaa-apologizes-for-error-in-locust-grove-douglass-game/article_4a4ad1de-df49-58c4-9ddd-7fdc414687f6.html
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I don't like to throw officials under the bus, but that is bad. I can understand if it is a tricky call with a lot going on but that can't happen.
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Which is why protests SHOULD be allowed for rules misapplications.
There is also a very damning statement in the article from the OSSAA:
“If we tried to go back and replay a game every time an official erred, you can imagine what that scenario would be like. We’d be replaying games all the time.”
So they are saying officials err "all the time". If so, your training and selection procedures aren't very good!
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Sometimes an inarticulate response to a difficult hypothetical question is just a poor choice, that may have been better left unsaid, rather than have any meaningful conclusion about anything else. Which is why, often, the less opined, the better.
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I can't believe that anyone would throw a flag for a sideline problem on the last play of the game unless there was purposeful contact in the restricted area. And screwing up the enforcement is unforgivable.
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I can't believe that anyone would throw a flag for a sideline problem on the last play of the game unless there was purposeful contact in the restricted area. And screwing up the enforcement is unforgivable.
I can't read the article (I suspect it's region blocking) however comments say there was 1:04 left in the game.
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Ouch. That's not just a crew in Oklahoma. That's a crew of (I would assume) at least five officials that were assigned a quarterfinal game screwing up a pretty basic rules enforcement. One could make a pretty big argument that there's something wrong with a system that allows those guys to advance that far without pretty basic rules knowledge.
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Ouch. That's not just a crew in Oklahoma. That's a crew of (I would assume) at least five officials that were assigned a quarterfinal game screwing up a pretty basic rules enforcement. One could make a pretty big argument that there's something wrong with a system that allows those guys to advance that far without pretty basic rules knowledge.
We're all susceptible to a "brain freeze". The only value of a mistake is the opportunity to reflect on how, and why, it happened, so we can avoid repeating it. Referee's don't make rule mistakes ALONE, they are the responsibility of the entire crew.
All Referee's should WELCOME decisions being questioned by crew mates. The Referee gets an opportunity to reflect on his decision, and convince his crew mate that he's correct, or discover that he was incorrect and avoid stepping in a pile of "mistake". Either way, it's a win-win for the Referee to STOP and consider whatever question is being raised
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I know the crew they are from an association close to me. They are VERY experienced and a well regarded crew. I believe they may have done state championship games in the past.
I have seen the tape and have no problm withe the flag. There was 1 coach on the field 5 yards and another he has to run around to avoid collision in the restricted area
When he throws the flag nobody knows the outcome of the play, so being a TD has no bearing on the flag. Kid gets tackled at the 30 and we never hear a word about it.
Which brings up the point that the coach could have asked for an officials conference on the application of the rule. Which means the coach didn't know the
enforcement. So up to this point I'll defer to the crew.
I'm done with that.
I have no idea what they were thinking on the enforcement. I can't think of a worse way to totally screw a team out of a victory. Serious vapor lock and all 5 are ultimately responsible. They will receive an official repremand and be barred from playoffs which will probably resort in the crew breaking up and at least a couple of retirements
Knowing these guys my take away is more "there but for the grace of God go I." Rather than that the crew is horrible, untrained or just bad. Horrible mistake but don't get too high and mighty that it couldn't happen to you or yours. Two weeks ago I would have bet a thousand dollars this crew wouldn't have screwed it up either
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Couldn't open the article. How did the crew actually enforce the (questionable, at best) penalty?
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Sideline interference. They enforced from previous spot rather than subsequent spot..
I have no problem with the penalty I subscribe to the concept that if it's a foul in Q1 it should be a foul in Q4. Or its a quick slide to; it's holding unless you have to call back a long run.
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Ouch. That's not just a crew in Oklahoma. That's a crew of (I would assume) at least five officials that were assigned a quarterfinal game screwing up a pretty basic rules enforcement. One could make a pretty big argument that there's something wrong with a system that allows those guys to advance that far without pretty basic rules knowledge.
I can beat that. We had a semi-final game in our district Friday where there was a fumble at the 2 going in on 4th down. Ball rolled into EZ recovered by A. WH brought ball back to 2 and gave it to the other team. Said A couldn't gain any benefit from fumbling forward. NFHS rules.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Story/Comments removed because this situation in Oklahoma is about to turn into a legal battle.
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I trust the local police officer cuffed the sucker-punching fan and charged him/her with assault.
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Story/Comments removed because this situation in Oklahoma is about to turn into a legal battle.
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This is a mini-Ferguson type of situation.
Really? Burning buildings and looting going on down in Oklahoma because of a playoff game?
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This is a mini-Ferguson type of situation.
This isn't even close to a mini-Ferguson situation, and to compare the two is ludicrous.
This is a crew that made a bad mistake. There was then a stupid reaction by coaches and fans. No one died. No businesses were ruined. I don't defend for one second the actions of the coaches or fans. I can see why they felt that way, but I don't excuse them.
But to compare this to Ferguson is like others comparing football to going into battle. When the opponents start shooting back, then you can make that comparison.
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Story/Comments removed because this situation in Oklahoma is about to turn into a legal battle.
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Is Oklahoma a state that has made violence against a sport official a felony?
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No......
OKLAHOMA
Oklahoma Stat. Ann. Tit. 21, Section 650.1 provides: Every person who, without justifiable or excusable cause and with intent to do bodily harm, commits any assault, battery, assault and battery upon the person of a referee, umpire, timekeeper, coach, official, or any person having authority in connection with any amateur or professional athletic contest is guilty of a misdemeanor and is punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one year or by a fine not exceeding One Thousand Dollars ($1,000) or both such fine and imprisonment.
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Everyone here knows I didn't mean to compare the atrocities going down in Ferguson to a football game. Very poor choice of words, but not at all the intent and you know it. Please step down from your high-horses and get a grip.
Not on any horse, you're the one who said it, and then expect other people to interpret the way you intended, why even bring it up in the first place?
Moving forward, it sounds to me like the state is doing what it should, "sorry, but game's final, crew is scratched from this point forward."
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Comment removed -
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Sometimes an inarticulate response to a difficult hypothetical question is just a poor choice, that may have been better left unsaid, rather than have any meaningful conclusion about anything else. Which is why, often, the less opined, the better.
"Silence can't be misquoted", and "a closed mouth gathers no feet."
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As a side note, the coach did not question the enforcement, just the actual call itself.
http://newsok.com/multimedia/video/3914921097001 (http://newsok.com/multimedia/video/3914921097001)
I too had issues reading that first link that was posted, but with enough other clicks, I got around it -- but I also found a link to a video of the play at the same newspaper site. It looks like one of the Douglass coaches (complete speculation on who it is) let the media video tape his computer while he shows video of the play. The guy makes a comment during the video -- "Nobody touched him. Did you see that?"
Clearly, he was initially upset that the call was made at all, but then had his anger justified due to the incorrect enforcement.
However, the guy running down the field well behind the play, 5 yards on the field, who then goes off and stands behind the LJ at the 10 -- I don't think that was a coach, but I don't know who it was. A penalty charter or something? Coaches seem to be wearing orange and at least cognizant of the team box.
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Crew should be punished and sounds as if they are.
School should be punished by the state athletic association for lack of security and actions of school personnel.
If reasonable actions are not taken to increase security, I would have no problem with the officials in that area refusing to work games. At some point, our "hobby" is not worth all the turmoil.
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http://newsok.com/multimedia/video/3914921097001 (http://newsok.com/multimedia/video/3914921097001)
Clearly, he was initially upset that the call was made at all, but then had his anger justified due to the incorrect enforcement.
ARE YOU SERIOUS? Where does one find the official EXCUSES that allow "Justifying your anger" that permits an adult, responsible for teaching a group of teenagers about poise and control and responding appropriately to dissappointment, to behave like an emotional teenager.
Grow up coach, your day in the spotlight ended the day you graduated.
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Disappointed at.......
(1) The officials...of the 5 vets, at least one should have realized the foul had no barring on the play and would be enforced from succeeding spot.
(2) The coach....who didn't know the rule (or he would have asked for an O/C conference) and became unglued setting a very poor image for his players and fans.
(3) the Fans...who followed their coach's lead and lost control.
Happy that......
(1) I live in Maine...worst case in my memory was a couple of years ago when a coach gave the officials the "middle finger salute" as they were leaving the field on Friday night. He quit on Sunday afternoon before he would have been fired on Monday morning.
(2) We don't have the potential for protested games. We have two safety nets to protect against a misapplied rule....Crew conference : If any crew member thinks we're screwing up a rule, get the crew together and talk thru it- 4/5/6/7 heads are always better than one.....Coach/referee conference : Another reason for the coach to know the rules. IMHO, to allow protests would become a quagmire if the game needed to be replayed from the point of the misapplied rule. I receive several dozen calls from coaches every season regarding "official mistakes", 90+% are regarding judgement calls, but some are misapplication of the rules. If we had "do over" provisions, I'd shudder to predict the end results ---
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If you're at a supermarket checkout, and the clerk rings up the wrong price, a rational person might suggest, "excuse me, your flyer suggests the item is on sale", which the clerk may respond either, "you're right, excuse me, I'll correct it" or, "You're looking at last week's flyer". For either response a simple, "Thank you" should suffice without any need for shouting, gestures or complaining.
NFHS 3-5-2-c provides a straightforward process for "reviewing a game official's application of a rule that may have been misapplied or misinterpreted" allowing for review and possible correction to take place immediately.
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I have seen the tape and have no problm withe the flag. There was 1 coach on the field 5 yards and another he has to run around to avoid collision in the restricted area
The video posted below above doesn't support your observations, IMO.
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The problem with a coach/referee conference is that the person that made the initial mistake is the one that still gets to rule after the conference. OK, so I'm the coach in this case.
"Excuse me, Mr. Referee, but I believe a sideline infraction would be marked from the succeeding spot, not from the previous spot?"
"Sorry coach, we've already ruled on that issue. It's the previous spot."
Now I lose a time out in addition to not being able to correct his mistake. Little League has a better system than this! In that case, if I ask for the conference and still think the crew is wrong (as they were here), an immediate phone call is made to the regional office. An experienced administrator with a rule book in hand makes the call.
Why not, if not for all season, at least for playoff games, allow a call to the state office? Most games are played simultaneously on Friday evening, it means the head of officials needs to be on call for a few hours.
In a case like this, the crew was "punished" by not getting any more games this year. There is a good chance this was their last game of the year anyway. So what did they lose other than a lot of respect?
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The problem with a coach/referee conference is that the person that made the initial mistake is the one that still gets to rule after the conference. OK, so I'm the coach in this case.
"Excuse me, Mr. Referee, but I believe a sideline infraction would be marked from the succeeding spot, not from the previous spot?"
"Sorry coach, we've already ruled on that issue. It's the previous spot."
Now I lose a time out in addition to not being able to correct his mistake. Little League has a better system than this! In that case, if I ask for the conference and still think the crew is wrong (as they were here), an immediate phone call is made to the regional office. An experienced administrator with a rule book in hand makes the call.
Why not, if not for all season, at least for playoff games, allow a call to the state office? Most games are played simultaneously on Friday evening, it means the head of officials needs to be on call for a few hours.
In a case like this, the crew was "punished" by not getting any more games this year. There is a good chance this was their last game of the year anyway. So what did they lose other than a lot of respect?
You would need 100 officials to answer that many calls because every game you would have a coach wanting to question an enforcement ;D
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In a case like this, the crew was "punished" by not getting any more games this year. There is a good chance this was their last game of the year anyway. So what did they lose other than a lot of respect?
Their punishment is the knowledge that their mistake cost a group of kids a shot at a state championship. That is something that they'll never forget, and it will probably bother them for years.
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The problem with a coach/referee conference is that the person that made the initial mistake is the one that still gets to rule after the conference. OK, so I'm the coach in this case.
"Excuse me, Mr. Referee, but I believe a sideline infraction would be marked from the succeeding spot, not from the previous spot?"
"Sorry coach, we've already ruled on that issue. It's the previous spot."
Now I lose a time out in addition to not being able to correct his mistake. Little League has a better system than this! In that case, if I ask for the conference and still think the crew is wrong (as they were here), an immediate phone call is made to the regional office. An experienced administrator with a rule book in hand makes the call.
Why not, if not for all season, at least for playoff games, allow a call to the state office? Most games are played simultaneously on Friday evening, it means the head of officials needs to be on call for a few hours.
In a case like this, the crew was "punished" by not getting any more games this year. There is a good chance this was their last game of the year anyway. So what did they lose other than a lot of respect?
That is one reason Ohio requires the rule book, case book and part of the Gold Book at the field. We kept them in a zip lock bag under the 20 yard marker.
Note: I have NEVER seen them pulled out ever.
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The problem with a coach/referee conference is that the person that made the initial mistake is the one that still gets to rule after the conference.
AB - I'm curious. You've been on the sidelines for a while, how many times in the hundreds of games have you had a coach/referee conference?
In my 15 years, I've been in part of one, and we didn't change anything (and wouldn't have with your 'instant replay' system.
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That is one reason Ohio requires the rule book, case book and part of the Gold Book at the field. We kept them in a zip lock bag under the 20 yard marker.
Note: I have NEVER seen them pulled out ever.
Tom, does the zip lock bag have room for a cache of sNiCkErS??? :)
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http://newsok.com/multimedia/video/3914921097001 (http://newsok.com/multimedia/video/3914921097001)
I too had issues reading that first link that was posted, but with enough other clicks, I got around it -- but I also found a link to a video of the play at the same newspaper site. It looks like one of the Douglass coaches (complete speculation on who it is) let the media video tape his computer while he shows video of the play. The guy makes a comment during the video -- "Nobody touched him. Did you see that?"
Clearly, he was initially upset that the call was made at all, but then had his anger justified due to the incorrect enforcement.
However, the guy running down the field well behind the play, 5 yards on the field, who then goes off and stands behind the LJ at the 10 -- I don't think that was a coach, but I don't know who it was. A penalty charter or something? Coaches seem to be wearing orange and at least cognizant of the team box.
Seeing the video makes me wonder if the coach is a "victim" of improper rule enforcement during his season. To me, it looks like business as usual is taking place. Now that he is in the playoffs, he gets officials from other regions, and they watch the sidelines a little closer.
Still no excuse for improper enforcement.
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AB - I'm curious. You've been on the sidelines for a while, how many times in the hundreds of games have you had a coach/referee conference?
In my 15 years, I've been in part of one, and we didn't change anything (and wouldn't have with your 'instant replay' system.
Assuming you mean for a misinterpretation of the rules. Formally? Maybe 3, one of which caused a change in the ruling on the field, yet we were right on all of them, which is the problem. Even if the coach is right, unless the R is willing to admit his mistake, it's all for naught, AND you lose a time out.
Informally? Dozens and dozens. About every other game, I point out/ask about an enforcement that is incorrect, and in 95% of them, we are right. It's sad how often it happens. One of them almost got me a flag this year. Hold by the offense about 5 yards down field on an incomplete pass. U marked the penalty from the flag. I said, "But that's a loose ball play, it should be from the previous spot." L tells me, "Holding is ALWAYS from the spot of the foul." Now I know I'm dealing with, well, let's just say someone less grounded in the rules than they should be. When I say something again, I'm told, "Shut up, I don't deal with assistants." I told our head coach to call time out and question the enforcement and his answer was, "I'm sure you're right, but I'm not sure they will listen, and we can't waste the time out." And therein lies the problem. The R is judge, jury and executioner, and unfortunately, for many reasons, they make far too many mistakes with no recourse.
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Even if the coach is right, unless the R is willing to admit his mistake, it's all for naught, AND you lose a time out.
I told our head coach to call time out and question the enforcement and his answer was, "I'm sure you're right, but I'm not sure they will listen, and we can't waste the time out." And therein lies the problem. The R is judge, jury and executioner, and unfortunately, for many reasons, they make far too many mistakes with no recourse.
Are you suggesting the reason for the existing protocol failing is somehow the referee's fault? It seems the problem exists in one of two other areas. Either YOU were unable to persuade YOUR HC that YOUR assessment of the situation was correct, or YOUR HC was too lazy, or too timid to trust that your conclusion was correct and that HE would be unable to successfully explain your challenge correctly.
In either matter, it seems the solution was on YOUR side of the Sideline, but nobody there had the will to see it considered.
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Are you suggesting the reason for the existing protocol failing is somehow the referee's fault?
In some cases, absolutely, 100% yes.
It seems the problem exists in one of two other areas. Either YOU were unable to persuade YOUR HC that YOUR assessment of the situation was correct,
Not at all, he was certain I was correct.
or YOUR HC was too lazy, or too timid to trust that your conclusion was correct and that HE would be unable to successfully explain your challenge correctly.
What he has come to know is that too many referees, from one local association in particular, won't listen, or ever admit they have made a mistake. We had an R and a U in one game enforce a loss of down on DEFENSIVE pass interference. We called time out, and explained that would only be true (at that time) for OFFENSIVE pass interference. They said, nope, we were wrong, and they were charging us a time out. Even the H, working our sideline, agreed with us, but said, "Coach, you're wasting your time. You can't explain anything to him. He knows it all."
So where is the fault in that one? In many ways, the fault lies with the state to still allow someone that deficient in rules knowledge to even be on the field.
In either matter, it seems the solution was on YOUR side of the Sideline, but nobody there had the will to see it considered.
Again, wrong, as wrong as the L that told me ALL holding fouls are marked from the spot of the foul, "everyone knows that."
I know many officials that simply made a mistake, and when it's calmly brought to their attention, are willing to admit they were wrong. And there are certainly many coaches that are deficient in their rules knowledge when challenging enforcements or interpretations. But there are some real rules idiots that are allowed to call HS games as well, and unfortunately, we don't get a choice as to which work our games.
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Tom, does the zip lock bag have room for a cache of sNiCkErS??? :)
No, the U has his own duffel bag for them.
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"Shut up, I don't deal with assistants."
This line would get us in trouble. There are a few assistant coaches in these parts who have clandestinely taped conversations with officials on the sideline and later sent them in to the state.
I've never heard it ending well for those officials when lines like these show up.
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I had a coach request a conference this year. His team was losing and wanted to argue a progress spot. I let him vent for a few moments then told him he was arguing balls and strikes and sent him on his way. I suspect that's all he really wanted anyway.
I can definitely see where AB is coming from though.
If I were a coach, I wouldn't risk losing the time out either unless it is truly game-changing. Or if you know the R's personality and know that he a strong enough "rules guy" that he will recognize the correct ruling when he hears it. To many "if's" there for me.
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EDITED-------OOOPSS, JUST REALIZED YOU ALREADY HAVE THIS GOING ON THE NFHS THREAD-----
Last week they had a playoff game where a late TD that would have won the game was erased after officials incorrectly enforced a sideline foul. Now the school has asked for the last minute of the game to be replayed. The state's governing body is set to vote on that request today. http://footballscoop.com/news/hs-playoff-games-ends-controversially-one-school-suggests-replaying-final-minute/
This link has some video from the game and a claim that one official was assaulted in the aftermath:
http://www.newson6.com/story/27530314/ref-punched-in-face-after-controversial-call-at-high-school-quarterfinal-football-game
Can't believe they would approve a replay of the last minute but stranger things have happened.
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I get it that they kicked the call and that is bad. But if we are all honest, that could be any one of us. I had my JUCO crew talk me off of an enforcement spot this year where I stopped the clock...called a crew conference...we had a discussion...we disagreed...but I ultimately deferred to the two guys that have about 10 years more experience than me. In the locker room, I was right. We all kick calls from time to time. If you haven't, you are either intellectually dishonest or you haven't been on the field.
Now...what I think we should be discussing is the real root of the problem. This issue is a TEAM issue. These coaches are a part of the team and they clearly violated the coaching box rule. If they would have kept their butts off the field, the refs wouldn't have had a call to blow. They should not get a do-over...and they should be responsible for their actions and be forced to go own up to those boys and say...there are TWO wrongs here and OUR wrong started the ball rolling. This loss is OUR fault...not the officials. If we had followed the rules, they wouldn't have screwed up the enforcement!
Somehow, in the days we live in....where referee scapegoating is en vogue...I seriously doubt that this conversation will never happen. And sadly, another generation will walk away from the game thinking that someone else is the root of their problems...victim mentality. ^no
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Now...what I think we should be discussing is the real root of the problem. This issue is a TEAM issue. These coaches are a part of the team and they clearly violated the coaching box rule. If they would have kept their butts off the field, the refs wouldn't have had a call to blow. They should not get a do-over...and they should be responsible for their actions and be forced to go own up to those boys and say...there are TWO wrongs here and OUR wrong started the ball rolling. This loss is OUR fault...not the officials. If we had followed the rules, they wouldn't have screwed up the enforcement!
Here's the opposite side of that argument:
"Boys, the coaches made a mistake, and we should be fairly punished for it. But due to the bigger mistake of officials who should have known better, YOU are being unfairly punished, and denied the opportunity we all earned as a TEAM."
To say that the coaches error was the bigger of the two is ludicrous. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't use this second argument either, it's a dumb as the first one that says the bigger mistake was on the part of the coaches. The coach's mistake was one of reaction, made in the heat of the moment. The officials' mistake was calculated, they had relaxed time to consider their decision.
Using your logic, the officials mistake "justified" the post game behavior as well, because if the officials had gotten the call right, the coaches and fans never would have had anything to be angry about. That argument is just as ludicrous, as nothing justifies what happened after the game.
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And, the other side of the story...
http://newsok.com/high-school-football-football-official-chris-cervantes-upset-about-bad-call-in-douglass-locust-grove-game/article/5371936
Willis Alexander then said he argued the enforcement, though Cervantes and his crewmate Chad Moyer both said that argument was never made.
“Not one of the Douglass coaches or the Douglass head coach argued or complained about the enforcement of the penalty,” Cervantes said. “They didn’t know how the penalty should have been enforced; they were all arguing the penalty itself. If they would have argued the enforcement, we as officials would have got back together to discuss it and probably came out with the right penalty assessment.”
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To try to somehow justify the officials' mistake is laughable, and is part of what makes the public and press not trust us. The only answer here is "we were wrong, we accept responsibility, and we will now move on."
We do all make mistakes. We are making the mistake worse by trying to blame others. WE are paid (maybe not enough) to be the rules experts, and the people who are accountable for mistakes regarding enforcement. it is not the coach's responsibility or anyone else's to enforce the rules properly. THAT IS OUR JOB. We often quote the adage, Players Play, Coaches Coach, and Officials Officiate. In this case the officials did not officiate properly (PERIOD END OF STORY). To try to blame someone else is the problem. This mistake is ours (as officials) to own.
It is unfortunate that the error cannot be corrected, but put simply that is the way High School football is played. The key is that all involved must move on and learn from this mistake.
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And this just shows that the crew should just not talk with the media. They aren't going to win the public debate. Whether or not the coach proffered the correct argument, it is the crew's responsibility to enforce the foul correctly. This isn't court where not following certain certain procedures results in a technical dismissal of a motion.
The coach screwed up by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The officials screwed up by misapplying enforcement of a properly called foul. The coach(es) then compounded their error by letting their emotions go unchecked. Make excuses for their behavior all you want but at some point they have to be professional enough to know when to not cross the line, that is a part of being a coach too. The situation then apparently got away from the officials, which is their professional responsibility to try really hard to avoid.
Like the mess in Louisiana last year, a situation that could have been handled better got out of hand quickly and there wasn't any way to put the cow back in the barn once she got loose.
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In some cases, absolutely, 100% yes.
Not at all, he was certain I was correct.
What he has come to know is that too many referees, from one local association in particular, won't listen, or ever admit they have made a mistake. We had an R and a U in one game enforce a loss of down on DEFENSIVE pass interference. We called time out, and explained that would only be true (at that time) for OFFENSIVE pass interference. They said, nope, we were wrong, and they were charging us a time out. Even the H, working our sideline, agreed with us, but said, "Coach, you're wasting your time. You can't explain anything to him. He knows it all."
So where is the fault in that one? In many ways, the fault lies with the state to still allow someone that deficient in rules knowledge to even be on the field.
Again, wrong, as wrong as the L that told me ALL holding fouls are marked from the spot of the foul, "everyone knows that."
I know many officials that simply made a mistake, and when it's calmly brought to their attention, are willing to admit they were wrong. And there are certainly many coaches that are deficient in their rules knowledge when challenging enforcements or interpretations. But there are some real rules idiots that are allowed to call HS games as well, and unfortunately, we don't get a choice as to which work our games.
Pursuing perfection is a laudable goal, thinking you are somehow entitled to it, is a fool's dream. As it applies to BOTH Coaches and Officials, some are really good and better than others, while the rest of us are trying our best to keep getting better. Since I'm really not qualified to differentiate between those who have reached their potential and those still working at it, I tend to start, by giving all the benefit of the doubt.
Perhaps if YOU, and your school, keep experiencing extradinary difficulty in questioning or challenging official's rulings during your games, you might consider HOW YOU ARE CONDUCTING YOURSELVES WHEN QUESTIONING OR CHALLENGING THOSE RULINGS.
Just like coaches, officials often learn much more dramatically from mistakes, which have always been and will assuredly continue to be, a valuable part of the overall learning process. Also like coaches, officials will have yet ANOTHER opportunity to work their FIRST perfect game, the NEXT time they step on a field, no matter how many fields they've already stepped on.
As an analogy, for those of us married, you might ponder how successful you've been in persuading your significant other, to assess your perspective by screaming, jesturing and demeaning them. Conversely, you might also consider, how receptive you may be to contemplating a different perspective when it's preceeded by constant nagging and nitpicking about all sorts of innocuous matters.
The vast majority of officials dwell on, rehash, contemplate and LEARN from each of their mistakes far more and far longer than those who seem to relish, harp on and excessively and repeatedly remind us of them. Every so often, game officials encounter sideline personnel, who have yet to learn how to respectfully interact with other adults. It's an unfortunate challenge of our profession to learn to endure such behavior and deal with it in such a way so as not to detract from our primary responsibilities. How well we actually deal with such individuals is a life long learning exercise, most struggle with, but accept as part of our challenge.
Hopefully your next game will finally be your FIRST perfect one, and with God's help maybe my next game will even be mine. If not, I'll continue aiming at the one after.
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We are all responsible, as a crew, for correct penalty enforcement, down number, time, etc.
Part of my pregame each week is to encourage my crew to be a "crew-saver", and not defer to me just because I happen to wear the white hat. They all feel comfortable doing so.
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What to do next about the game that ended badly......what correction would be made if this occurred in the Super Bowl ??? ???? = No correction, plenty of griping, future penalty on officiating crew. pi1eOn What if this occurred in a Bowl Game ??? ???? = same as above.
IMHO, screw-ups at our level should be handled the same.
In regard to coach/referee conferences....our referees are instructed to : HLCE = Honor the request, Listen to the coach, Confer with crew (if necessary), Explain to coach.
If the misapplied rule is corrected, go to other coach with reasoning. I probably have a average of one request per year.
This years was a vent : "Define holding, have you ever seen 3 holding calls in a row?"
Last years was a question : " Can the kickers really run with the ball if they catch it in the backfield?"
Sometimes the coach was correct and we goofed it .....basic spots on COP plays were a couple that came to mind. We brought the crew together and discussed WHEN did the foul occur. Before the correction, but after telling the coach he was right, I went to opposing coach to explain why we were correcting our call. Their responses were : "Not happy it's getting changed but thank you for explaining why." One of our goals should be having the game run smoothly. Being approachable does help.
Our protocol when C/R conference is requested :
(1) Signal an official's TO
(2) Keep all coaches & attendants off the field except requesting HC, meeting him on field/alone/in front of his bench w/HL or LJ as witness.
(3) If he's right, explain to opposing coach and resume game.
(4) If he's wrong, signal charged time out on his team and give them the full TO.
(5) If he wrong and out of time outs, charge his team with DOG and resume game.
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Here's the opposite side of that argument:
"Boys, the coaches made a mistake, and we should be fairly punished for it. But due to the bigger mistake of officials who should have known better, YOU are being unfairly punished, and denied the opportunity we all earned as a TEAM."
To say that the coaches error was the bigger of the two is ludicrous. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't use this second argument either, it's a dumb as the first one that says the bigger mistake was on the part of the coaches. The coach's mistake was one of reaction, made in the heat of the moment. The officials' mistake was calculated, they had relaxed time to consider their decision.
Using your logic, the officials mistake "justified" the post game behavior as well, because if the officials had gotten the call right, the coaches and fans never would have had anything to be angry about. That argument is just as ludicrous, as nothing justifies what happened after the game.
I didn't say that the coaches error was the bigger of the two. I said it was the FIRST mistake...the one that got the ball rolling. All I'm saying is that everyone should be honest with each other. Don't use the refs as the scapegoat. The kids deserve to see that mistakes are a part of the game and their TEAM made plenty that night...and that is why they didn't win.
Coaches, lawyers, and first wives have an uncanny ability to spin something we say into something we didn't say...but surely implied by not saying what they say we said! ::)
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What he has come to know is that too many referees, from one local association in particular, won't listen, or ever admit they have made a mistake. We had an R and a U in one game enforce a loss of down on DEFENSIVE pass interference. We called time out, and explained that would only be true (at that time) for OFFENSIVE pass interference. They said, nope, we were wrong, and they were charging us a time out. Even the H, working our sideline, agreed with us, but said, "Coach, you're wasting your time. You can't explain anything to him. He knows it all."
How many of us read that quote and said "Yep, I know that guy"? We have a 20+ year veteran official who is convinced that the momentum exception doesn't apply once the ball hits the ground.
I know we'll never go back, but I miss the days of taking a closed book test with No 2 pencils and 3 or 4 administrators making sure that there was no collaborating going on. That kept some of these guys off the field on Friday night, or at least reminded them to open the rule book once in a while.
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http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/highschools/footballhs/ossaa-board-votes-down-okc-douglass-appeal-of-a-playoff/article_e86477f5-823f-5522-b6b0-cbf288b5685c.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/highschools/footballhs/ossaa-board-votes-down-okc-douglass-appeal-of-a-playoff/article_e86477f5-823f-5522-b6b0-cbf288b5685c.html)
The OSSAA actually took the time to hear the appeal, and voted against it -- thankfully.
I get that the penalty was misapplied and that's unfortunate for Douglass, but there's no way they can set a precedent like that where they can replay a game (or part of a game). It would just never end. You think there's issues finding officials for varsity (and sub varisty) games now? Imagine if we'd have to cover replays and such -- on top of discredited crews -- every week.
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I've just watched the video. Who is the guy running down the field behind the play? Is he the ball runner? Why is the cameraman out on the field?
I have a feeling there were a lot of things happening on this sideline that should, or may have been addressed early in the game.
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I get that the penalty was misapplied and that's unfortunate for Douglass, but there's no way they can set a precedent like that where they can replay a game (or part of a game). It would just never end. You think there's issues finding officials for varsity (and sub varisty) games now? Imagine if we'd have to cover replays and such -- on top of discredited crews -- every week.
Douglass ain't through, apparently. They're appealing today to a District Court. hEaDbAnG
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All of us have probably made rule mistakes in our careers.
There's a high probability that that mistake was on Rule 10.
In our chapter, aprox. 80% of mistakes were on Rule 10 (not calling a 5 yd. penalty a 15, but screwing up basic spot).
In my career, I've had such goofs...one that had a happy ending, but could have haunted me was :
Playoff game - mid 1990's - visitors ball @ 50 ,4 point lead, 3 & 11 w/3:00 to go............
(1) Visitor's QB is scrambling back around A's 40 when he's grabbed by facemask (15).
(2) LJ & I have ^flag ^flag and beanbag spot.
(3) QB fumbles :o
(4) Big ole' D-lineman scoops up fumble and gallops for ^good.
(5) Home fans/band/cheerleaders/players/coaches go wild eAt& yEs: :D :bOW :laugh:...until they spot the ^flag ^flag.
(6) Being the messenger of bad news, I went to the beanbags, gave the signals, handed ball to sNiCkErSU who paced ball off to B's 45 = 3 & 6. pi1eOn
(7) On the next play the visitors gained 8 = 1st down = ran out the clock to win
.....a football story with a happy ending nAnA tiphat:
On the drive home, I had an "news flash" :o ::) hEaDbAnG...loose ball behind the line = previous spot enforcement = creating a new series @ B's35 :!# :!# :-X :-[
The following Summer, at the coach/official meetings , I explained my goof. Neither coach involved realized that there was a screw-up, but the visiting coach said ; "You're pray:; lucky we got a first down ;D". - If they hadn't, the football story would have a sad ending - for me yEs:
A very wise Man once said : "May thou who has never sinned throw the first stone."
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Douglass ain't through, apparently. They're appealing today to a District Court. hEaDbAnG
There's no way a court of law would have jurisdiction to rule on this.
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There's no way a court of law would have jurisdiction to rule on this.
Don't be so sure! It's the public school board that is filing the suit. If they get a judge that thinks more of the school board than the OSSHA, they could absolutely get a TRO and put this weekend's games on hold in that class. It's happened before, in Oklahoma, when a QB was suspended after being ejected from a game.
Ultimately, the OSSHA prevailed, but after a week's delay.
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Don't be so sure! It's the public school board that is filing the suit. If they get a judge that thinks more of the school board than the OSSHA, they could absolutely get a TRO and put this weekend's games on hold in that class. It's happened before, in Oklahoma, when a QB was suspended after being ejected from a game.
Ultimately, the OSSHA prevailed, but after a week's delay.
And if they do, the officiating association in OK (if there is one) should refuse to provide officials for the game. I think it's a lose-lose. Say they play the game again, and Douglass loses closely, do you doubt there will be arguments that Douglass was treated unfairly? Or what if Douglass wins closely and it is felt that some controversial judgement call went in their favor, do you doubt that Locust Grove will complain that Douglass was treated favorably?
Mistakes happen. They happen at all levels. And when they happen at the professional level, millions of dollars are at stake (think of just the bookies!). This isn't unique to Douglass-Locust Grove, and shouldn't be treated uniquely.
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And to fan the flames even more:
http://www.news9.com/story/27537529/ok-senator-calling-on-ossaa-after-controversial-douglass-locust-grove-game
From that article:
The community leaders said they believe racial bias may have played a role in the officiating though they stopped short of calling it a racist issue. Pittman and other Oklahoma City leaders called for "justice" and "change" in the OSSAA.
“It's not a black or white thing, it's about doing the right thing,” Pittman said.
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Temporary restraining order granted. Next round will not be played tomorrow night.
http://newsok.com/locust-grove-heritage-hall-3a-semifinal-postponed/article/5372882 …
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Did the coach of Douglass request a conference with the referee after this enforcement?
If not, this whole case is moot.
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Did the coach of Douglass request a conference with the referee after this enforcement?
If not, this whole case is moot.
There was a conference. Coach says he questioned the call and the enforcement. Referee says he only questioned the call.
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Well then I guess the case is not moot haha
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Lawyers and judges are involved. It's not moot, and it's liable to get uglier than it already is before it's over.
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I can't believe they would cameramen get that close to the side. The cameraman was actually not the sideline it looked like. Looks like OK has some work to do cleaning up sidelines.
This isn't life and death. You live with a mistake and move on.
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The only thing that can compare to lawyers and judges getting involved is politicians getting involved (which we know they already have in this case). Yes, it definitely is going to have an ugly ending, no matter what it is.
http://www.okcfox.com/story/27542838/concerns-over-ossaa-process-of-picking-officials
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Lawyers and judges are involved. It's not moot, and it's liable to get uglier than it already is before it's over.
Between the lawyers, judges, politicians, and the NAACP being involved, it's darn sure guaranteed to get uglier.
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http://kfor.com/2014/12/03/state-leaders-claim-racial-bias-in-high-school-football-controversial-call/
Next Thursday a judge will hear arguments about the whether Douglass High School will be allowed to replay last weeks game.
So the team waiting the winner of this game may find out on Thursday which team they'll be playing on Friday? Nothing like having to prepare two game plans to implement at a moment's notice, I guess..
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http://www.okcfox.com/story/27542838/concerns-over-ossaa-process-of-picking-officials
Leave it to a FOX affiliate to stir the pot with less than factual "facts." When does Periera arrive in OKC?
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I compare this to a case in West Virginia in 2010 when the courts were involved after multiple players were ejected at the end of a playoff game, making them ineligible to play the following week. It led to the rule change to 1-1-8 specifying that officials' authority extends through the completion of reports. A judge initially ruled the players could play in the championship game, but the state Supreme Court overturned and ruled for the state association enforcement.
http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/UPDATE_WVSSAC_Wants_Day_in_Court_on_Suspensions.html
The question for the Oklahoma judge is not did something unfair happen to these players, but were the rules of the state association followed. The rules state that the avenue to correct an officiating error is to request a coach/referee conference before the next play. With that either not occurring or failing, the state association is bound by its rule that no protest is allowed.
In the West Virginia case, the Supreme Court ruled that the courts should not have intervened in how the SSAC applies its rules.
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The question for the Oklahoma judge is not did something unfair happen to these players, but were the rules of the state association followed. The rules state that the avenue to correct an officiating error is to request a coach/referee conference before the next play. With that either not occurring or failing, the state association is bound by its rule that no protest is allowed.
I hope that sentence there is the kill shot to this whole mess!!!! Leave the freaking courts and politicians out of sports. IT'S A FREAKING GAME!!!!!!!!! Even worse, THERE'S NO MONEY AT STAKE! IT'S HIGH SCHOOL SPORTS!!!!!
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I hope that sentence there is the kill shot to this whole mess!!!! Leave the freaking courts and politicians out of sports. IT'S A FREAKING GAME!!!!!!!!! Even worse, THERE'S NO MONEY AT STAKE! IT'S HIGH SCHOOL SPORTS!!!!!
Ah, but there are feelings at stake. And we know how important a positive self esteem is.
Besides, there aren't supposed to be winners and losers anymore, are there? Do they still keep score?
;)
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I hope that sentence there is the kill shot to this whole mess!!!! Leave the freaking courts and politicians out of sports. IT'S A FREAKING GAME!!!!!!!!! Even worse, THERE'S NO MONEY AT STAKE! IT'S HIGH SCHOOL SPORTS!!!!!
Definitely money at stake. Your school keeps playing = your school gets more gate fee and concession sales.
And the whole coach/referee conference issue has been discussed. It is now a 'he said/she said' on what the conference was about and whether the coach was questioning the enforcement or the call.
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What is interesting to me is this: Is it fair to the other team to play the end of the game over? Can you simulate the same field conditions, player conditions (what if one team was in better physical shape?) and who on earth will officiate the end of the game? One would assume they couldn't possibly have the same crew come back??? And so different officials with different styles too...
I guess my point is..if you go back to that point in the game and redo the finish it isn't really the same as had they got the call right to start with and finished it that night.... it is a lose lose situation.
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And the whole coach/referee conference issue has been discussed. It is now a 'he said/she said' on what the conference was about and whether the coach was questioning the enforcement or the call.
I don't think that matters from a court-of-law perspective. The issue the court will decide is if procedure was followed -- i.e., there was a conference, if requested. The outcome of the conference can't be disputed, even if it was wrong, because the NFHS rules are not legally enforceable.
Can you imagine if a court could get involved because of a disputed OPI on the game winning touchdown pass and rule on whether or not it was actually OPI?
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Can you imagine if a court could get involved because of a disputed OPI on the game winning touchdown pass and rule on whether or not it was actually OPI?
Unfortunately I can imagine such a scenario coming to a court near one of us, with some attorney who has never officiated even a Pee Wee game arguing that the (possibly/probably racist) officials engaged in a vast conspiracy to give the game to the obviously undeserving team on a bogus OPI call. Evidence would include the offending player's mother's cousin's cell phone video taken from the parking lot.
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Even after this fiasco, I'm watching Skiatook v. MacArthur game. And the sidelines in this game are congested. Coaches on the field when their team is close to the goaline, fans or personnel close to the action along the field.
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And the whole coach/referee conference issue has been discussed. It is now a 'he said/she said' on what the conference was about and whether the coach was questioning the enforcement or the call.
But that doesn't matter. Assume the coach DID question the enforcement, and the referee stuck with the original call. Obviously, that's incorrect. Obviously, the crew will get sanctioned. The procedures were followed correctly, and thus there's no reason for a court to overrule the OHSAA.
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Statute of limitations on z^ screw-ups :
Obvious timing error : may be corrected prior to second live ball.
Wrong down : can be corrected before the series ended - 5th down would revert back to result of 4th down play.
Wrong spot - wrong chains set : can be corrected prior to snap.
C-R conference : Prior to next live ball unless period had officially ended. Witness to prevent "he said/he said" situation : wing official from coach's sideline.
Courts/judges/lawyers are to deal with bad people doing bad things or someone hurting someone else deadhorse:.
As an aside... yesterday, after some new fallen snow, a hockey game developed in the vacant lot next to our home. :!#. The players were pre-teens, the goal was a shopping cart "borrowed" from the supermarket close-by, the puck appeared to be some sort of a dogie toy, their sticks ranged from brooms,plastic shovels to whiffle bats.
The game lasted for a couple of hours WITHOUT any coaches,commissioners, referees or parents :o. They all seemed to have fun and the losing team had to return the shopping cart yEs:. It brought back good memories of my days of youth when we used to behave as such. Glad to see it still can occur and WITHOUT adult involvement. tiphat:
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C-R conference : Prior to next live ball unless period had officially ended. Witness to prevent "he said/he said" situation : wing official from coach's sideline.
Which for the lawyer turns the whole thing into a conspiracy (racist or not) by the crew instead of just an issue with one official. Plus, the wing official as the "witness" would be the one who threw the flag to begin with anyway. pi1eOn
As an aside... yesterday, after some new fallen snow, a hockey game developed in the vacant lot next to our home. :!#. The players were pre-teens, the goal was a shopping cart "borrowed" from the supermarket close-by, the puck appeared to be some sort of a dogie toy, their sticks ranged from brooms,plastic shovels to whiffle bats.
The game lasted for a couple of hours WITHOUT any coaches,commissioners, referees or parents :o. They all seemed to have fun and the losing team had to return the shopping cart yEs:. It brought back good memories of my days of youth when we used to behave as such. Glad to see it still can occur and WITHOUT adult involvement. tiphat:
As a long-time Little League coach and umpire, I've long wished that we could tell the parents to drop their kids off and leave, or that they only thing that they can say is positive cheering. Adults just screw up kids' games.
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Which for the lawyer turns the whole thing into a conspiracy (racist or not) by the crew instead of just an issue with one official. Plus, the wing official as the "witness" would be the one who threw the flag to begin with anyway. pi1eOn
As a long-time Little League coach and umpire, I've long wished that we could tell the parents to drop their kids off and leave, or that they only thing that they can say is positive cheering. Adults just screw up kids' games.
This.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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http://m.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/highschools/footballhs/judge-will-rule-thursday-in-locust-grove-douglass-case/article_61103aa0-9829-539b-8063-24f0a43a1b2c.html?mode=jqm
No decision yet but maybe tomorrow
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Judge ruled in favor of the OSSAA and the result will stand.
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http://newsok.com/douglass-locust-grove-judge-denies-douglass-request-for-injunction/article/5374965
Here is a PDF of the judge's filing:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/content.newsok.com/documents/OSSAADouglass.pdf
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Wrong down : can be corrected before the series ended - 5th down would revert back to result of 4th down play.
[/quote]
"revert back"????
Does that mean the situation remains as it is currently? LOL
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Judge ruled in favor of the OSSAA and the result will stand.
This entire situation is unfortunate, and I feel for the kids who don't get to move on in the playoffs. However, I'm happy to see the judge decide that the result will stand. Any other ruling could have started us down a slippery slope that I don't think any of us would have enjoyed.
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I agree and as we all can contest to that there is no way of knowing that the team that lost would have been able to hold on. There was still 104 left in the game and we know how quick teams can score or leads can change. Case in point Plano vs John Tyler what 20 years ago I believe.
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I almost get the feeling that many folks do not consider this penalty an important call. Just go and look at the court proceedings in Texas that led to the sideline changes--if you were called into a court of law, could you and your crew stand on the fact that you had done everything possible to keep the sidelines clean?
You always feel badly in these kind of situations. It happened and you have to go on--replaying the game from the last minute on in is not an option.
My encouragement is that you take sideline maintenance seriously.
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Ole' Mainer proverb: "If da' dawg hadn't stop to squart, he mighta' caught da' fox" deadhorse:
All our lives are full of "what ifs" , "should haves" , "if only" and the likes. IMHO, to put it behind us and move on only makes us stronger. Several years ago I went to visit a very good friend...that very good friend had a son who was a very good hockey player. The son knew I was an official and had this story:
" Ralph, I had an awful call made aginst me last night >:(! I had a breakaway and was sailing in alone on the goalie, when I was tripped from behind. I went sprawling into the goalie, knocking him down and the goal off it's morings. Hearing the ref's whistle, I figured I was going to be awarded a penalty shot ??? until I looked up :o ??? ::). The ref hadn't seen the trip and was hitting me with a 5 minute major and ejection for roughing the goalie pi1eOn. Because of that I can't play in the next game....."
at that point, dad stepped in and replied......
"Son, life is full of bad calls and tough breaks. The strong winners put it behind them get more determined and move on...the weak losers dwell on the bad calls and tough breaks and blame all their future failures on them. You've got a choice to make : (1) You can sit out a game, blame the rest of your medicore season on that bad call and carry that attitude on into life after school; OR (2) You can sit out a game and get more determined to make this your best season ever yEs:"
The dad put his hand on his son's shoulder and then asked :
"So, it's your choice, son, do you want to continue to grow as a winner, or begin to slide as a loser??"
The son hugged his dad and responded: "I'm a winner, dad, and I'll always be aWaRd!!"
The dad and I then had a beer :)
Epilogue : The son led his team is scoring and made first team all-state. He attended a very prestigious New England University where he was Suta Com Larde in Engineering, today he's married with two children and very successful.
The dad passed in 2004, but I remember those words well and recall them when events such as this occur.
Rest In Peace : Nick Susi (1947-2004) a very good friend, a very great dad tiphat:
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A very rare father today, Ralph, sadly. :'(
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Ole' Mainer proverb: "If da' dawg hadn't stop to squart, he mighta' caught da' fox" deadhorse:
All our lives are full of "what ifs" , "should haves" , "if only" and the likes. IMHO, to put it behind us and move on only makes us stronger. Several years ago I went to visit a very good friend...that very good friend had a son who was a very good hockey player. The son knew I was an official and had this story:
" Ralph, I had an awful call made aginst me last night >:(! I had a breakaway and was sailing in alone on the goalie, when I was tripped from behind. I went sprawling into the goalie, knocking him down and the goal off it's morings. Hearing the ref's whistle, I figured I was going to be awarded a penalty shot ??? until I looked up :o ??? ::). The ref hadn't seen the trip and was hitting me with a 5 minute major and ejection for roughing the goalie pi1eOn. Because of that I can't play in the next game....."
at that point, dad stepped in and replied......
"Son, life is full of bad calls and tough breaks. The strong winners put it behind them get more determined and move on...the weak losers dwell on the bad calls and tough breaks and blame all their future failures on them. You've got a choice to make : (1) You can sit out a game, blame the rest of your medicore season on that bad call and carry that attitude on into life after school; OR (2) You can sit out a game and get more determined to make this your best season ever yEs:"
The dad put his hand on his son's shoulder and then asked :
"So, it's your choice, son, do you want to continue to grow as a winner, or begin to slide as a loser??"
The son hugged his dad and responded: "I'm a winner, dad, and I'll always be aWaRd!!"
The dad and I then had a beer :)
Epilogue : The son led his team is scoring and made first team all-state. He attended a very prestigious New England University where he was Suta Com Larde in Engineering, today he's married with two children and very successful.
The dad passed in 2004, but I remember those words well and recall them when events such as this occur.
Thats powerful
Rest In Peace : Nick Susi (1947-2004) a very good friend, a very great dad tiphat:
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Watched a video today from CBS on this story in which the opening frame makes it look like the QB has his entire face painted black. Am I seeing it wrong, or was this permitted?
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Watched a video today from CBS on this story in which the opening frame makes it look like the QB has his entire face painted black. Am I seeing it wrong, or was this permitted?
BBref, your post sounded so interesting (strange?) that I had to see for myself. So I googled "cbs Douglass Locust Grove" and found the clip. You're exactly right. At the end of the clip, the video freezes on the kid's face, and you can clearly see what you pointed out.
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http://www.cbsnews.com/news/oklahoma-judge-to-rule-on-high-school-football-game-call/
1:05
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Right ddecision by the court.
That said, with the permitted face painting and the botched sideline enforcement, these five officials are bozos and have done all of us a disservice. Call this stuff correctly from the start.
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FWIW, the same mistake was made in the Pennsylvania 4A championship on Saturday, but with much less impact. A down was replayed after enforcement of a USC foul. But the original 3rd down play was an incomplete pass and the replay was well short of the first down. So it only added an extra play, and the defense quickly scored after the punt anyway.
So 2 lessons:
But for the grace of God. ...
And officials will always make mistakes; we can only hope ours will not have an impact on the game's outcome.
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Watched a video today from CBS on this story in which the opening frame makes it look like the QB has his entire face painted black. Am I seeing it wrong, or was this permitted?
BBref, your post sounded so interesting (strange?) that I had to see for myself. So I googled "cbs Douglass Locust Grove" and found the clip. You're exactly right. At the end of the clip, the video freezes on the kid's face, and you can clearly see what you pointed out.
Right ddecision by the court.
That said, with the permitted face painting and the botched sideline enforcement, these five officials are bozos and have done all of us a disservice. Call this stuff correctly from the start.
We can all concede the egregious error regarding the enforcement of the "sideline" foul; but FACE PAINTING? Really? No need to quote 1-5-3c3; I read it and looked for some related Case play and found no specific reference to face painting (maybe I missed it). Do we actually consider this "extended eye shade"? Does it really matter to anybody/anything? Was there any racial or offensive meaning inferred/mentioned/written (and is it up to us to make that determination)? Is there a safety issue? Was any advantage gained? Did anybody involved in the game care? :!#
I suppose the State could adopt another superfluous rule for us to have to watch for (did everyone check the gloves and mouthpiece colors?). pi1eOn
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Don't laugh. I know of at least one state that has a rule against face painting.
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actually consider this "extended eye shade"?
In NC, yes we do. I know of at least one AT who carries baby wipes in her kit to clean them up after warm-ups.
No different than looking for bicep bands, play cards on the belt, lettering on towels, and those pesky NOCSAE stamps in pre-game.
Towel police, I really hate being the towel police.
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The restriction on extended eye shadow was to include face painting as such. Examples that were circulated included ones such as "angel of death skeleton face", "black face" and such. While these might be acceptable at a Haloween party, or some ghoulish prom ;they are not acceptable 0n the football fields (at least in Maine) as their only intent is to draw attention to ones self. A better method is a score a few touchdowns and act like you've been there before. :)
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Towel police, I really hate being the towel police.
I absolutely refuse to accept that designation. Policing those issues is clearly and ENTIRELY a game management responsibility that is best, and most easily, totally eliminated at the very first Team meeting of the season when the Head Coach explains to his players what they can and cannot do IF THEY WANT TO ACTUALLY PLAY IN THE GAMES.
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Don't laugh. I know of at least one state that has a rule against face painting.
Hmmm wonder what state that is? ;D
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I absolutely refuse to accept that designation. Policing those issues is clearly and ENTIRELY a game management responsibility that is best, and most easily, totally eliminated at the very first Team meeting of the season when the Head Coach explains to his players what they can and cannot do IF THEY WANT TO ACTUALLY PLAY IN THE GAMES.
deadhorse:
Yup, works every time, that big meeting in the summer.
And we saw how well Moses with the stone tablets worked for the rest of the world too.
::)
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We enforce the eye black rule in California. I spent last Friday's pregame looking and finding a number of violations. With the head honcho of officials in attendance my crew was checking everything. Here is the problem. If you let so called "minor rules" go during the season, it is then up to the playoff and championship crews to clean up the mess. I have been told numerous times by coaches, during the playoffs that, "We've been doing it all season." It's not fair to the coaches, players and officials to pass on any rule during the season. Whether you agree with the rule or not It doesn't give us the right to pass on anything in the rule book. I'm sure the coach in the OK game spent the whole season standing on the sideline. I watched the Union vs Jinx 6A OK final while the judge was deliberating and both coaches called their plays standing on the field, right next to a flank official who never said a word. We're far from perfect out west but I do know that next season I'm enforcing the sideline rule right out of the rule book.
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deadhorse:
Yup, works every time, that big meeting in the summer.
And we saw how well Moses with the stone tablets worked for the rest of the world too.
::) yEs:
Need any help getting your tongue dislodged from your cheek? LOL
We enforce the eye black rule in California. I spent last Friday's pregame looking and finding a number of violations. With the head honcho of officials in attendance my crew was checking everything.
Hey, as I said, if your State Association dictates this, you play by their interpretations. :angel:
Here is the problem. If you let so called "minor rules" go during the season, it is then up to the playoff and championship crews to clean up the mess. I have been told numerous times by coaches, during the playoffs that, "We've been doing it all season." It's not fair to the coaches, players and officials to pass on any rule during the season. Whether you agree with the rule or not It doesn't give us the right to pass on anything in the rule book.
Well, except in those states where the interpretation is that any painting of the face is to be penalized or "corrected" before participation, I still don't see where the FED rule extends to painting your face black, red , or purple. Even in Ralph's examples, the restrictions sighted were of an offensive nature - which could be justifiable, I guess. But, Ralph, if every player painted his face red, would that mean any one player is trying to draw attention to himself?
I'm sure the coach in the OK game spent the whole season standing on the sideline. I watched the Union vs Jinx 6A OK final while the judge was deliberating and both coaches called their plays standing on the field, right next to a flank official who never said a word. We're far from perfect out west but I do know that next season I'm enforcing the sideline rule right out of the rule book.
Nobody's perfect; and you have to do what you have to do; but I'd hope your evaluations would be based on actual, meaningful calls during the contest.
All I'm saying is that we have a lot more important issues to manage during a game than face painting (and towels...and NOCSAE lables...and gloves...!)
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Face paining is illegal. One of the preseason rule clinic presentations with the pictures was clear on the face paint issue a couple of years ago. One stripe, directly under the eye, no words, logos, etc in the stripe.
No arrows, tears, tiger stripes, etc. This isn't a KISS concert. One stripe directly under the eye, period. Just like a bicep band issue or something similar, I would never expect a flag, but I would expect a "fix it if you want to play".
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No arrows, tears, tiger stripes, etc. This isn't a KISS concert. One stripe directly under the eye, period. Just like a bicep band issue or something similar, I would never expect a flag, but I would expect a "fix it if you want to play".
Who's KISS? ;)
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Face paining is illegal. One of the preseason rule clinic presentations with the pictures was clear on the face paint issue a couple of years ago. One stripe, directly under the eye, no words, logos, etc in the stripe.
No arrows, tears, tiger stripes, etc. This isn't a KISS concert. One stripe directly under the eye, period. Just like a bicep band issue or something similar, I would never expect a flag, but I would expect a "fix it if you want to play".
When was this preseason meeting given AB? Was it a national POE (I'm being serious)? I've been attending our state meetings for more years than I want to admit and this issue has never been discussed. Maybe we're not as "artistic" as other states here in Michigan; so it hasn't been a "problem" yEs:
Who's KISS? ;)
More like whose kiss???? nAnA
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When was this preseason meeting given AB? Was it a national POE (I'm being serious)? I've been attending our state meetings for more years than I want to admit and this issue has never been discussed. Maybe we're not as "artistic" as other states here in Michigan; so it hasn't been a "problem" yEs:
It was in the national presentation that is sent out by the NFHS to go over that's year's rule changes, the one with the pictures. I believe it's actually prepared by Referee Ragazine, but it is distibuted by the NFHS.
It had diagrams showing "legal" and "illegal". Legal included only a single stripe under the eye, illegal included something you might see on WWE, as well as eye stripes with words in them.
Would have been about 3 years ago.
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So none of this:
(http://i1.cpcache.com/product_zoom/713321205/ultimate_warrior_neon_mask_tank_top.jpg?height=250&width=250&padToSquare=true)
or this:
(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090731133234/prowrestling/images/0/07/WolfpacSting.jpg)
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The rule was implemented in 2011 and the slide AB remembers was in that year's NFHS PowerPoint presented at rules interpretation meetings across the country. I didn't realize until others mentioned that the actual rule on this is rather vague. But the PowerPoint slides and the comment on the rule change in the 2011 rule book are clear. -- " The committee's intent was that eye shade be located below and within the width of the eye socket and not extend below the cheek bone." This comes after it says the change was adopted "in response to increasing use of "face painting.'" Some of this wording remains in Casebook 1-5-3 Comment.
In our area we hit it real hard the first and second year after it came out. What didn't help was kids buying eye shade stickers with numbers or brand names in them, and coaches insisting they were legal because they came that way. We refused to allow them, and we got the situation cleaned up so that coaches know how to police it themselves. Do we worry about a guy with paint that extends 1/16 of an inch outside the eye socket? No. But if it goes the whole way down his cheek, it is removed before he plays.
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It was in the national presentation that is sent out by the NFHS to go over that's year's rule changes, the one with the pictures. I believe it's actually prepared by Referee Ragazine, but it is distibuted by the NFHS.
It had diagrams showing "legal" and "illegal". Legal included only a single stripe under the eye, illegal included something you might see on WWE, as well as eye stripes with words in them.
Would have been about 3 years ago.
Thanks AB, I'll go back and look at my materials; but......I kinda like the "imagination" some of the kids can demonstrate. The game s getting a little stale >:D
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I guess you just can't make some people happy. The rule, regarding eye shadow, was put in several years ago to PREVENT incremental escalations that were stretching the envelope and sliding down a never ending slippery slope. Instead of creating an atmosphere of constant argument about what might be excessive, or offensive, the rule makers kept it simple by defining specifically what was allowable, and EVERTHING ELSE IS PROHIBITED.
If you want to challenge the creative impulses of the American teenager, KNOCK YOURSELF OUT, but the current RULE (1-5-3-c-3) prohibiting eye shade to ANYTHING other than, "a solid stroke or includes words, numbers logos or other symbols within the eye shade" is designed to make an official's job that much easier, simple AND CRYSTAL CLEAR.
Of course, the truly artistic can paint themselves and apply whatever messages THEY CHOOSE, but in doing so CHOOSE to eliminate their opportunity to participate in actually playing the game.
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I'm sure the coach in the OK game spent the whole season standing on the sideline.
And I'm sure that you know that the court battle was about the enforcement of the penalty, not the correctness of the call itself.
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I absolutely refuse to accept that designation. Policing those issues is clearly and ENTIRELY a game management responsibility that is best, and most easily, totally eliminated at the very first Team meeting of the season when the Head Coach explains to his players what they can and cannot do IF THEY WANT TO ACTUALLY PLAY IN THE GAMES.
Welcome to the board, Pollyanna.
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IMHO, our minor duty of "fashion police" P_S should be preformed in our pregame "walk around". Things to look for :
(1) mouthpieces that have been chewed to cover only one tooth.
(2) towels that contain a picture of Elvis.
(3) play cards clipped to facemask, and the like.
(4) knots tied in jerseys - knots tied in shoestrings acceptable.
(5) LL Bean High Water boots worn in lieu of cleated shoes on muddy fields.
(6) Cleats that exceed 1/2 inch on muddy fields.
(7) Face paint of any color, design or amount that exceeds the eye shadow swipe.
(8) missing pads, legal unaltered jerseys, etc.
If any offences are found, politely bring it to the attention of the coach. Situation will be corrected and the game will be played smoothly....or at least until kickoff tiphat:!
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Welcome to the board, Pollyanna.
All it takes for Pollyanna to remain in her seat way up in the stands, is to send a starter (or two) back to the sideline, so he can remove his face paint, Muscle bands, towel messages or whatever artistic messages he wants to send WITHOUT STOPPING THE GAME for him to do so.
When the whining begins, politely reminding those complaining who neglected THEIR JOB of getting their players ready to play usually has a quieting effect.
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IMHO, our minor duty of "fashion police" P_S should be preformed in our pregame "walk around". Things to look for :
(1) mouthpieces that have been chewed to cover only one tooth.
(2) towels that contain a picture of Elvis.
(3) play cards clipped to facemask, and the like.
(4) knots tied in jerseys - knots tied in shoestrings acceptable.
(5) LL Bean High Water boots worn in lieu of cleated shoes on muddy fields.
(6) Cleats that exceed 1/2 inch on muddy fields.
(7) Face paint of any color, design or amount that exceeds the eye shadow swipe.
(8) missing pads, legal unaltered jerseys, etc.
If any offences are found, politely bring it to the attention of the coach. Situation will be corrected and the game will be played smoothly....or at least until kickoff tiphat:!
This +1
I walk the field and walk the teams multiple times. I got time to kill and need to warm up anyway.
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I guess you just can't make some people happy. The rule, regarding eye shadow, was put in several years ago to PREVENT incremental escalations that were stretching the envelope and sliding down a never ending slippery slope. Instead of creating an atmosphere of constant argument about what might be excessive, or offensive, the rule makers kept it simple by defining specifically what was allowable, and EVERTHING ELSE IS PROHIBITED.
If you want to challenge the creative impulses of the American teenager, KNOCK YOURSELF OUT, but the current RULE (1-5-3-c-3) prohibiting eye shade to ANYTHING other than, "a solid stroke or includes words, numbers logos or other symbols within the eye shade" is designed to make an official's job that much easier, simple AND CRYSTAL CLEAR.
Of course, the truly artistic can paint themselves and apply whatever messages THEY CHOOSE, but in doing so CHOOSE to eliminate their opportunity to participate in actually playing the game.
Get over yourself Al pi1eOn...and spend more time trying to find a sense of humor :'(
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Perhaps focusing on a greater willingness to explain the rational behind penalties, so others better understood their RESPONSIBILITIES would prove more valuable in persuading others to reduce the actual frequency of ANYONE having to deal with the problem, than worrying about someone else's sense of humor.
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Perhaps focusing on a greater willingness to explain the rational behind penalties, so others better understood their RESPONSIBILITIES would prove more valuable in persuading others to reduce the actual frequency of ANYONE having to deal with the problem, than worrying about someone else's sense of humor.
Who writes this stuff for you? cRaZy cRaZy cRaZy cRaZy LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
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IMHO, our minor duty of "fashion police" P_S should be preformed in our pregame "walk around". Things to look for :
(1) mouthpieces that have been chewed to cover only one tooth.
(2) towels that contain a picture of Elvis.
(3) play cards clipped to facemask, and the like.
(4) knots tied in jerseys - knots tied in shoestrings acceptable.
(5) LL Bean High Water boots worn in lieu of cleated shoes on muddy fields.
(6) Cleats that exceed 1/2 inch on muddy fields.
(7) Face paint of any color, design or amount that exceeds the eye shadow swipe.
(8) missing pads, legal unaltered jerseys, etc.
If any offences are found, politely bring it to the attention of the coach. Situation will be corrected and the game will be played smoothly....or at least until kickoff tiphat:!
Our HL and I (LJ) have a pregame wager each game about who will find the most bicep bands or other such fashion faux pas prior to the coin toss. It gets harder to find them as the season moves on.
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Our HL and I (LJ) have a pregame wager each game about who will find the most bicep bands or other such fashion faux pas prior to the coin toss. It gets harder to find them as the season moves on.
If you are consistent enough early in the season yes it does. Also a willingness to explain reasons why helps ease the pain as well.
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IMHO, our minor duty of "fashion police" P_S should be preformed in our pregame "walk around". Things to look for :
(1) mouthpieces that have been chewed to cover only one tooth.
(2) towels that contain a picture of Elvis.
(3) play cards clipped to facemask, and the like.
(4) knots tied in jerseys - knots tied in shoestrings acceptable.
(5) LL Bean High Water boots worn in lieu of cleated shoes on muddy fields.
(6) Cleats that exceed 1/2 inch on muddy fields.
(7) Face paint of any color, design or amount that exceeds the eye shadow swipe.
(8) missing pads, legal unaltered jerseys, etc.
If any offences are found, politely bring it to the attention of the coach. Situation will be corrected and the game will be played smoothly....or at least until kickoff tiphat:!
Sadly, we have allowed the coaches to delegate the full responsibility for legal equipment to the officials, and we have accepted it. There is no reason a coach should worry about this anymore. If a player is not legally equipped, one of two things will happen - 1) The officials not notice/ignore it. 2) The officials will politely ask the coach to fix it. The third option - a penalty won't be used.
In a class 6 state final about two years ago, a WH had the guts to up penalizing both teams (at separate times) for illegal equipment. I loved it and the state supported the crew.
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Sadly, we have allowed the coaches to delegate the full responsibility for legal equipment to the officials, and we have accepted it. There is no reason a coach should worry about this anymore. If a player is not legally equipped, one of two things will happen - 1) The officials not notice/ignore it. 2) The officials will politely ask the coach to fix it. The third option - a penalty won't be used.
In a class 6 state final about two years ago, a WH had the guts to up penalizing both teams (at separate times) for illegal equipment. I loved it and the state supported the crew.
Speak for yourself, most if not all officials I work with have NOT accepted ANY responsibility for wearing illegal equipment, although they do accept responsibility for PREVENTING such equipment to be worn. The basic object is to prevent such equipment BEING worn, by PREVENTING any player so equipped FROM PLAYING.
THERE IS no provision for STOPPING or DELAYING the game to remove illegal equipment, rather the protocol is to REMOVE the equipment or the PLAYER wearing ILLEGAL equipment Removal of the equipment may require a Charged TO, or result in a Delat of the Game if the RFP is adversely affected. If the equipment is discovered prior to the ball becoming alive, and the Team involved has allowable TOs available, a Charged TO may be used to affect the correction.(NF 3-5-2b) If no TOs are available, and the correction delays the RFP for more than 25 seconds, the player shall be replaced, for at least 1 play (NF:3-5-6).
Players actually playing with illegal equipment would be a violation of NF: 9-8m, a (revised) 5 yard UNC penalty, charged to the Head Coach.
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This has gone way off topic. The original error by the officiating crew had nothing to do with illegal equipment.