Author Topic: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown  (Read 57393 times)

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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2014, 10:26:09 AM »
What to do next about the game that ended badly......what correction would be made if this occurred in the Super Bowl ??? ????  = No correction, plenty of griping, future penalty on officiating crew. pi1eOn What if this occurred in a Bowl Game ??? ???? = same as above.
IMHO, screw-ups at our level should be handled the same.

In regard to coach/referee conferences....our referees are instructed to : HLCE = Honor the request, Listen to the coach, Confer with crew (if necessary), Explain to coach.
If the misapplied rule is corrected, go to other coach with reasoning. I probably have a average of one request per year.
            This years was a vent : "Define holding, have you ever seen 3 holding calls in a row?"

            Last years was a question : " Can the kickers really run with the ball if they catch it  in the backfield?"

            Sometimes the coach was correct and we goofed it .....basic spots on COP plays were a couple that came to mind. We brought the crew together and discussed WHEN did the foul occur. Before the correction, but after telling the coach he was right, I went to   opposing coach to explain why we were correcting our call. Their responses were : "Not happy it's getting changed but thank you for explaining why." One of our goals should be having the game run smoothly. Being approachable does help.

Our protocol when C/R conference is requested :
  (1) Signal an official's TO
  (2) Keep all coaches & attendants off the field except requesting HC, meeting him on field/alone/in front of his bench w/HL or LJ as witness.
  (3) If he's right, explain to opposing coach and resume game.
  (4) If he's wrong, signal charged time out on his team and give them the full TO.
  (5) If he wrong and out of time outs, charge his team with DOG and resume game.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 07:59:02 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline blindref757

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2014, 10:39:15 AM »
Here's the opposite side of that argument:

"Boys, the coaches made a mistake, and we should be fairly punished for it.  But due to the bigger mistake of officials who should have known better, YOU are being unfairly punished, and denied the opportunity we all earned as a TEAM."

To say that the coaches error was the bigger of the two is ludicrous.  Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't use this second argument either, it's a dumb as the first one that says the bigger mistake was on the part of the coaches.  The coach's mistake was one of reaction, made in the heat of the moment.  The officials' mistake was calculated, they had relaxed time to consider their decision.

Using your logic, the officials mistake "justified" the post game behavior as well, because if the officials had gotten the call right, the coaches and fans never would have had anything to be angry about.  That argument is just as ludicrous, as nothing justifies what happened after the game.
I didn't say that the coaches error was the bigger of the two.  I said it was the FIRST mistake...the one that got the ball rolling.  All I'm saying is that everyone should be honest with each other.  Don't use the refs as the scapegoat.  The kids deserve to see that mistakes are a part of the game and their TEAM made plenty that night...and that is why they didn't win. 

Coaches, lawyers, and first wives have an uncanny ability to spin something we say into something we didn't say...but surely implied by not saying what they say we said! ::)

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2014, 03:27:21 PM »
What he has come to know is that too many referees, from one local association in particular, won't listen, or ever admit they have made a mistake.  We had an R and a U in one game enforce a loss of down on DEFENSIVE pass interference.  We called time out, and explained that would only be true (at that time) for OFFENSIVE pass interference.  They said, nope, we were wrong, and they were charging us a time out.  Even the H, working our sideline, agreed with us, but said, "Coach, you're wasting your time.  You can't explain anything to him.  He knows it all."

How many of us read that quote and said "Yep, I know that guy"?  We have a 20+ year veteran official who is convinced that the momentum exception doesn't apply once the ball hits the ground.

I know we'll never go back, but I miss the days of taking a closed book test with No 2 pencils and 3 or 4 administrators making sure that there was no collaborating going on.  That kept some of these guys off the field on Friday night, or at least reminded them to open the rule book once in a while.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2014, 08:14:28 PM »
http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/highschools/footballhs/ossaa-board-votes-down-okc-douglass-appeal-of-a-playoff/article_e86477f5-823f-5522-b6b0-cbf288b5685c.html

The OSSAA actually took the time to hear the appeal, and voted against it -- thankfully.

I get that the penalty was misapplied and that's unfortunate for Douglass, but there's no way they can set a precedent like that where they can replay a game (or part of a game). It would just never end. You think there's issues finding officials for varsity (and sub varisty) games now? Imagine if we'd have to cover replays and such -- on top of discredited crews -- every week.

ECILLJ

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #54 on: December 03, 2014, 10:22:36 PM »
I've just watched the video. Who is the guy running down the field behind the play? Is he the ball runner? Why is the cameraman out on the field?

I have a feeling there were a lot of things happening on this sideline that should, or may have been addressed early in the game.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2014, 08:49:34 AM »
I get that the penalty was misapplied and that's unfortunate for Douglass, but there's no way they can set a precedent like that where they can replay a game (or part of a game). It would just never end. You think there's issues finding officials for varsity (and sub varisty) games now? Imagine if we'd have to cover replays and such -- on top of discredited crews -- every week.

Douglass ain't through, apparently.  They're appealing today to a District Court.    hEaDbAnG

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2014, 08:51:57 AM »
All of us have probably made rule mistakes in our careers.
 There's a high probability that that mistake was on Rule 10.
  In our chapter, aprox. 80% of mistakes were on Rule 10 (not calling a 5 yd. penalty a 15, but screwing up basic spot).
   In my career, I've had such goofs...one that had a happy ending, but could have haunted me was :

Playoff game - mid 1990's - visitors ball @ 50 ,4 point lead, 3 & 11 w/3:00 to go............

     (1) Visitor's QB is scrambling back around A's 40 when he's grabbed by facemask (15).
     (2) LJ & I have ^flag ^flag and beanbag spot.
     (3) QB fumbles :o
     (4) Big ole' D-lineman scoops up fumble and gallops for ^good.
     (5) Home fans/band/cheerleaders/players/coaches go wild eAt& yEs: :D :bOW :laugh:...until they spot the ^flag ^flag.
     (6) Being the messenger of bad news, I went to the beanbags, gave the signals, handed ball to  sNiCkErSU who paced ball off to B's 45 = 3 & 6. pi1eOn
     (7) On the next play the visitors gained 8 = 1st down = ran out the clock to win
            .....a football story with a happy ending nAnA tiphat:

On the drive home, I had an "news flash" :o ::) hEaDbAnG...loose ball behind the line = previous spot enforcement = creating a new series @ B's35 :!# :!# :-X :-[

The following Summer, at the coach/official meetings , I explained my goof. Neither coach involved realized that there was a screw-up, but the visiting coach said ; "You're  pray:; lucky we got a first down ;D". - If they hadn't, the football story would have a sad ending - for me yEs:

A very wise Man once said : "May thou who has never sinned throw the first stone."

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #57 on: December 04, 2014, 09:27:19 AM »
Douglass ain't through, apparently.  They're appealing today to a District Court.    hEaDbAnG

There's no way a court of law would have jurisdiction to rule on this.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #58 on: December 04, 2014, 09:41:26 AM »
There's no way a court of law would have jurisdiction to rule on this.
Don't be so sure!  It's the public school board that is filing the suit.  If they get a judge that thinks more of the school board than the OSSHA, they could absolutely get a TRO and put this weekend's games on hold in that class.  It's happened before, in Oklahoma, when a QB was suspended after being ejected from a game.

Ultimately, the OSSHA prevailed, but after a week's delay.

Offline Suudy

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #59 on: December 04, 2014, 10:03:27 AM »
Don't be so sure!  It's the public school board that is filing the suit.  If they get a judge that thinks more of the school board than the OSSHA, they could absolutely get a TRO and put this weekend's games on hold in that class.  It's happened before, in Oklahoma, when a QB was suspended after being ejected from a game.

Ultimately, the OSSHA prevailed, but after a week's delay.
And if they do, the officiating association in OK (if there is one) should refuse to provide officials for the game.  I think it's a lose-lose.  Say they play the game again, and Douglass loses closely, do you doubt there will be arguments that Douglass was treated unfairly?  Or what if Douglass wins closely and it is felt that some controversial judgement call went in their favor, do you doubt that Locust Grove will complain that Douglass was treated favorably?

Mistakes happen.  They happen at all levels.  And when they happen at the professional level, millions of dollars are at stake (think of just the bookies!).  This isn't unique to Douglass-Locust Grove, and shouldn't be treated uniquely.

Offline Suudy

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2014, 10:04:38 AM »
And to fan the flames even more:

http://www.news9.com/story/27537529/ok-senator-calling-on-ossaa-after-controversial-douglass-locust-grove-game

From that article:

Quote
The community leaders said they believe racial bias may have played a role in the officiating though they stopped short of calling it a racist issue. Pittman and other Oklahoma City leaders called for "justice" and "change" in the OSSAA.

“It's not a black or white thing, it's about doing the right thing,” Pittman said.


Offline Rich

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2014, 05:08:11 PM »
Temporary restraining order granted.  Next round will not be played tomorrow night.

http://newsok.com/locust-grove-heritage-hall-3a-semifinal-postponed/article/5372882 …

ALStripes17

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2014, 05:27:31 PM »
Did the coach of Douglass request a conference with the referee after this enforcement?

If not, this whole case is moot.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2014, 07:55:25 PM »
Did the coach of Douglass request a conference with the referee after this enforcement?

If not, this whole case is moot.
There was a conference.  Coach says he questioned the call and the enforcement.  Referee says he only questioned the call.

ALStripes17

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #64 on: December 04, 2014, 08:19:25 PM »
Well then I guess the case is not moot haha

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2014, 09:35:40 PM »
Lawyers and judges are involved. It's not moot, and it's liable to get uglier than it already is before it's over.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline TexDoc

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Re: Oklahoma Mess
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2014, 11:03:11 PM »
I can't believe they would cameramen get that close to the side.  The cameraman was actually not the sideline it looked like.  Looks like OK has some work to do cleaning up sidelines.

This isn't life and death.  You live with a mistake and move on.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2014, 04:42:05 AM »
The only thing that can compare to lawyers and judges getting involved is politicians getting involved (which we know they already have in this case).  Yes, it definitely is going to have an ugly ending, no matter what it is. 

http://www.okcfox.com/story/27542838/concerns-over-ossaa-process-of-picking-officials



Offline VALJ

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2014, 07:24:47 AM »
Lawyers and judges are involved. It's not moot, and it's liable to get uglier than it already is before it's over.

Between the lawyers, judges, politicians, and the NAACP being involved, it's darn sure guaranteed to get uglier. 


Offline VALJ

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2014, 07:27:36 AM »
http://kfor.com/2014/12/03/state-leaders-claim-racial-bias-in-high-school-football-controversial-call/

Quote
Next Thursday a judge will hear arguments about the whether Douglass High School will be allowed to replay last weeks game.

So the team waiting the winner of this game may find out on Thursday which team they'll be playing on Friday?  Nothing like having to prepare two game plans to implement at a moment's notice, I guess..

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2014, 07:47:21 AM »

http://www.okcfox.com/story/27542838/concerns-over-ossaa-process-of-picking-officials
Leave it to a FOX affiliate to stir the pot with less than factual "facts." When does Periera arrive in OKC?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 07:50:46 AM by Rulesman »
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline BBref

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2014, 08:29:52 AM »
I compare this to a case in West Virginia in 2010 when the courts were involved after multiple players were ejected at the end of a playoff game, making them ineligible to play the following week. It led to the rule change to 1-1-8 specifying that officials' authority extends through the completion of reports. A judge initially ruled the players could play in the championship game, but the state Supreme Court overturned and ruled for the state association enforcement.

http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/UPDATE_WVSSAC_Wants_Day_in_Court_on_Suspensions.html

The question for the Oklahoma judge is not did something unfair happen to these players, but were the rules of the state association followed. The rules state that the avenue to correct an officiating error is to request a coach/referee conference before the next play. With that either not occurring or failing, the state association is bound by its rule that no protest is allowed.

In the West Virginia case, the Supreme Court ruled that the courts should not have intervened in how the SSAC applies its rules.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2014, 01:03:43 PM »
The question for the Oklahoma judge is not did something unfair happen to these players, but were the rules of the state association followed. The rules state that the avenue to correct an officiating error is to request a coach/referee conference before the next play. With that either not occurring or failing, the state association is bound by its rule that no protest is allowed.


I hope that sentence there is the kill shot to this whole mess!!!!  Leave the freaking courts and politicians out of sports.  IT'S A FREAKING GAME!!!!!!!!!  Even worse, THERE'S NO MONEY AT STAKE!  IT'S HIGH SCHOOL SPORTS!!!!!

Offline Suudy

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2014, 02:09:06 PM »
I hope that sentence there is the kill shot to this whole mess!!!!  Leave the freaking courts and politicians out of sports.  IT'S A FREAKING GAME!!!!!!!!!  Even worse, THERE'S NO MONEY AT STAKE!  IT'S HIGH SCHOOL SPORTS!!!!!
Ah, but there are feelings at stake.  And we know how important a positive self esteem is.

Besides, there aren't supposed to be winners and losers anymore, are there?  Do they still keep score?

 ;)

ALStripes17

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Re: Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2014, 02:36:45 PM »
I hope that sentence there is the kill shot to this whole mess!!!!  Leave the freaking courts and politicians out of sports.  IT'S A FREAKING GAME!!!!!!!!!  Even worse, THERE'S NO MONEY AT STAKE!  IT'S HIGH SCHOOL SPORTS!!!!!
Definitely money at stake.  Your school keeps playing = your school gets more gate fee and concession sales.

And the whole coach/referee conference issue has been discussed.  It is now a 'he said/she said' on what the conference was about and whether the coach was questioning the enforcement or the call.