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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: lawdog on September 20, 2010, 09:00:36 AM
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Are you guys ALWAYS going illegal participation if a sub doesn't get inside the 9 yard marks before the snap to establish himself? Seems too harsh if there doesn't appear to be an intent to decieve like the rule talks about.
Situation: A has 10 guys and they yell they need another player. Everybody hears this and sees A11 run into the game but he doesn't get to the tick mark, just stops outside it and lines up. He's plenty early before the snap and B sends a defender over to cover him and the play is run. You clearly have a penalty as he didn't get inside the marks, but is that really worth a 15 yarder?
We've been calling this illegal substitution and going with 5 yards instead but I'm not sure there is really rule support for that. The 15 yard participation penalty talks about "attempts to decieve" and I don't think that applies here either so I'm not sure it is really illegal participation. THOUGHTS???
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Sometimes, depending on the specific situation when clearly nobody has gaind an unfair advantage, it's better to simply "talk to" the player (and possibly his coach) of a precision technical violation than designate the action as a foul.
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It's not Illegal Substitution, it's Illegal Formation. 7-2-1 5 Yards
It wouldn't be Illegal Participation unless he entered DURING the down, or if you judge he was doing it with an intent to deceive. 9-6-4
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As AB said, its I.F. so its apparently been penalized improperly anyway.
If I see a guy lingering around after the play, I'll tell him to get inside the numbers til the whistle blows for RFP. if he gets chronic I'll flag to get his attention.
If its a one time thing and he draws coverage from B, I'll probably let it go.
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Last Thursday's game: The team on my sideline sent their wideouts WIDE OUT and almost never went in to the huddle. The trouble was they apparently weren't told of the rule that required them to momentarily be inside the numbers after the RFP. I just instructed them to hold above the numbers until the White Hat blew the RFP, then continue to their position. After a couple of reminders, they picked up on it and I didn't have to remind them the rest of the game. No flags and the problem was solved.
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That's right, formation...DUH!!! Had a brain fart there. No wonder I didn't see anything in substitution cases... I knew there was a reason we were going with a five yard penalty, its because it is one! Just not the one I was thinking of.
Thanks Guys.
PS this came up because another crew called this while I was watching them and they called the fifteen when I didn't think it was there.
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"Hey, 85 - take a step inside the number and then come back out for me. You need to be inside the number at some point after the whistle's blown."