Author Topic: Roughing the passer on a completed pass  (Read 19091 times)

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refjb

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Roughing the passer on a completed pass
« on: June 01, 2011, 08:56:31 PM »
If we have a roughing the passer on a completed pass how is it enforced?

A has ball 1-10-A15. A12 throws a completed pass to A88 at the A25 and B85 hits A12 late and draws a flag. A88 fumbles the ball at the A30 and A recovers at the A20.

Where would we enforce this fouls from.

New enforcement as follows.

Roughing passer (Art. 4) – (S34) – 15 yards and a first down

from the dead ball spot when the dead ball spot is beyond the neutral zone and

there has been no change of team possession

I am confused where they say enforce from the dead ball spot.




« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 10:00:19 PM by refjb »

Offline jg-me

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2011, 09:46:59 PM »
Your play, as written, states that A recovers the fumbled ball. I presume this was intended to mean that the A player recovered the loose ball while he was on the ground thus making the recovery spot a dead ball spot as well. It appears the NF has adjusted the enforcement to match the NCAA enforcement for RTP fouls. NCAA considers A's recovery while grounded to be a 'run'. NF does not consider this recovery a run, thus the necessary change of wording to end up with the same result as NCAA rules.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2011, 10:39:17 PM »
The dead ball spot is the A20.  Under the old ruling the enforcement spot would have been the end of the last run which would have been the A30 where the bean bag should have been spotted.   

refjb

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2011, 06:18:03 AM »
Thanks guys! That is what Iwas thinking but I wanted to make sure.

LarryW60

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2011, 09:32:54 AM »
It seems to me that there is enough video out there by now that we could find an example of each rule change to show how things are now different.  (Show the clip once and indicate where the old enforcement spot was, then continue the clip to show what changed.)  There's GOT to be a video of a Roughing penalty, caught pass, fumble, and recovery by A at a different yard line out there somewhere.

Interesting that while this seems at first glance to be a beneficial rule for A, we should remember that the fumble could travel towards A's goal line instead of towards B's goal line.  In those cases, the old rule (enforced from the end of the run) would have benefited A more.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2011, 09:41:49 AM »
An excellent point to consider when reviewing any rule.  Normally a rule discussion is generated and related to the result and action of a specific play or situation, where the intent of the rule is designed to equitably apply to a much broader set of related circumstances that each offer the potential of adding unique nuances.

RickKY

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2011, 09:44:09 AM »
The play described above says B hit A late, causing A to fumble.  That cannot happen.  If you remove the 'late' then the ruling is correct.  If the hit was late, there would be no fumble and subsequent recovery.  The DBPF would be enforced from the end of the run.

The new rule is a bit more confusing than the old version.  But it does help A more now.  As long as the pass was completed, and there was no COP during the down, RTP fouls would be enforced from the succeeding spot, not the end of the related run.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2011, 11:01:19 AM »
Fad,

There are a lot of things the Fed can and should do to enhance official's education.  Updated and catalogued video would be great.  i just don't think they have the staff to pull it off.  Maybe their alliance with The Arbiter will give them some greater ability in the future.

Offline Ump33

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2011, 11:54:16 AM »
The play described above says B hit A late, causing A to fumble.  That cannot happen.  If you remove the 'late' then the ruling is correct.  If the hit was late, there would be no fumble and subsequent recovery.  The DBPF would be enforced from the end of the run.

The new rule is a bit more confusing than the old version.  But it does help A more now.  As long as the pass was completed, and there was no COP during the down, RTP fouls would be enforced from the succeeding spot, not the end of the related run.

RickKY ... In the op, I believe the use of the word "late" was meant to describe the QB was hit after the pass was throne (RTP) and not to imply after the ball was dead. As officials, we frequently use the term "late hit on the QB" as opposed to the correct language of "Roughing the passer."
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 11:57:52 AM by Ump33 »

fbrefga

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2011, 11:57:32 AM »
The play described above says B hit A late, causing A to fumble.  That cannot happen.  If you remove the 'late' then the ruling is correct.  If the hit was late, there would be no fumble and subsequent recovery.  The DBPF would be enforced from the end of the run.

The QB was hit late; as in after the pass was released.  The receiver did not take a late hit.

RickKY

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2011, 12:14:43 PM »
I misread the play and responded too quickly.  My apologies.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2011, 04:45:37 PM »
RickKY, don't lose that number.

 ;)

Offline Magician

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2011, 11:40:29 PM »
The dead ball spot is the A20.  Under the old ruling the enforcement spot would have been the end of the last run which would have been the A30 where the bean bag should have been spotted.   
Not necessarily true last year either.  This was a common debate on whether the recovery was considered a "run".  Many people thought it did so the enforcement was often from the succeeding spot.  Others thought it was from the spot of the fumble in this scenario.  The rules committee chose to clarify to support the camp who interpreted the previous rule as the spot of recovery.  This simplifies what you have to consider when enforcing RTP penalties.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2011, 08:45:36 AM »
Quote
This was a common debate on whether the recovery was considered a "run".

Not where I work.

Why is the mechanic to beanbag the spot of the fumble then?  They think we just wait for the recovery and go from there?
Did the debaters look up the definition of a runner?

Offline Bob M.

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2011, 04:20:03 PM »
...Interesting that while this seems at first glance to be a beneficial rule for A, we should remember that the fumble could travel towards A's goal line instead of towards B's goal line.  In those cases, the old rule (enforced from the end of the run) would have benefited A more.

REPLY: Or a thornier issue. Suppose receiver is hit and fumbles at B's 8, and the ball rolls into and out of B's end zone. Now what? Last season, enforcement would have been from B's 8. This season, Fed says (in a revised case play), enforce from previous spot.
Bob M.

refjb

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2011, 04:52:52 PM »
REPLY: Or a thornier issue. Suppose receiver is hit and fumbles at B's 8, and the ball rolls into and out of B's end zone. Now what? Last season, enforcement would have been from B's 8. This season, Fed says (in a revised case play), enforce from previous spot.

WOW - that is just a little tricky.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2011, 05:50:43 PM »
REPLY: Or a thornier issue. Suppose receiver is hit and fumbles at B's 8, and the ball rolls into and out of B's end zone. Now what? Last season, enforcement would have been from B's 8. This season, Fed says (in a revised case play), enforce from previous spot.

The ball out of the end zone is TREATED as a change of possession.  I understand that the play itself is technically a not change of possession by rule, but for this rule, it is treated as a such.  It makes sense - absent the penalty, B would be the next to put the ball in play, and that sure sounds like a change of possession!

Offline Bob M.

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2011, 08:29:31 AM »
The ball out of the end zone is TREATED as a change of possession.  I understand that the play itself is technically a not change of possession by rule, but for this rule, it is treated as a such.  It makes sense - absent the penalty, B would be the next to put the ball in play, and that sure sounds like a change of possession!

REPLY: You're correct that for RTP enforcement purposes, the TB is TREATED the same way as you would had there been a COP. You're equally correct that in the play there was no COP. A COP requires that a player of Team B must have had possession of the ball at some time. The "next entitled to put the ball in play" works for PSK enforcement, but is not really a part of RTP enforcment. I prefer to think of the Fed's thinking as, "We can't penalize from the dead ball spot, so let's go back to the previous spot.

If you remember a few years back the NCAA dealt with this same issue and went through a few years of 'push and pull' between Adams and the Rules Committee, before finally agreeing that there was no COP during the down and enforcing from the spot of the fumble.
Bob M.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2011, 11:54:05 AM »
If you remember a few years back the NCAA dealt with this same issue and went through a few years of 'push and pull' between Adams and the Rules Committee, before finally agreeing that there was no COP during the down and enforcing from the spot of the fumble.

IIRC, the point of contention then was "Don't fumble if you want the full effect of the penalty."  Ultimately, the offense-minded (read "good for TV ratings") faction won out.

Offline Bob M.

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2011, 08:44:29 PM »
IIRC, the point of contention then was "Don't fumble if you want the full effect of the penalty."  Ultimately, the offense-minded (read "good for TV ratings") faction won out.

REPLY: As I recall the Rules Committee wanted the penalty enforced from the spot of the fumble, and the rule said "...and there was no change of possession." Well, Adams looked at the play and said he felt that the TB constituted a change of possession, hence penalize from the previous spot. So, the following season the Rules Committee changed the rule to read "and there was no change of possession during the down" figuring that would nail it for them. Well, the esteemed Mr. Adams and said he felt that the TB was a COP during the down -- previous spot! Back to square one and I don't think it was ever cleared up until Mr. Adams retired.
Bob M.

hoochycoochy

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed play
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2011, 11:16:42 AM »
REPLY: Or a thornier issue. Suppose receiver is hit and fumbles at B's 8, and the ball rolls into and out of B's end zone. Now what? Last season, enforcement would have been from B's 8. This season, Fed says (in a revised case play), enforce from previous spot.
Hey Bob, where can I find the revised case play you mention?  Is it on the NF website?

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed pass
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2011, 12:04:30 PM »
I'm not Bob, but I know he is referring to the following in the 2011 Case Book:

*9.4.4 SITUATION C: 3rd down and 10 from B30. A1 passes to A2 who catches
ball at B20. B1 roughs A1 following the legal forward pass. A2 advances to B15
where he fumbles (a) backward and the ball is recovered by A3 at the B 20; (b)
forward and the ball is recovered by A3 at the B5; (c) forward and the ball is
recovered by B2 at the B5; (d) forward and the ball is recovered by A3 in the end
zone; (e) forward and the ball is recovered by B2 in B's end zone; (f) forward and
the ball rolls through and out of the end zone; or (g) backward and the ball is
recovered at the B31. RULING: In (a) the roughing penalty is enforced from the
B20, half the distance with first and goal for A at the B10; in (b) the roughing
penalty is enforced half the distance from the B5 yard line with first and goal for
A at the B 2 ½ yard line; in (c), (e), (f) and (g) the roughing penalty is enforced
from the B30 (previous spot) with first and 10 for A at the B15;
in (d) touchdown
for A and A is given the choice of enforcing the roughing penalty on the try or on
the subsequent kickoff per 8-2-2.

LarryW60

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed pass
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2011, 07:15:02 AM »
Wow.  A casebook scenario that actually covers ALL possible outcomes!  Should we be concerned at this newfound lack of ambiguity?
 >:D

Offline Bob M.

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed pass
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2011, 12:40:11 PM »
I'm not Bob, but I know he is referring to the following in the 2011 Case Book:

*9.4.4 SITUATION C: 3rd down and 10 from B30. A1 passes to A2 who catches
ball at B20. B1 roughs A1 following the legal forward pass. A2 advances to B15
where he fumbles (a) backward and the ball is recovered by A3 at the B 20; (b)
forward and the ball is recovered by A3 at the B5; (c) forward and the ball is
recovered by B2 at the B5; (d) forward and the ball is recovered by A3 in the end
zone; (e) forward and the ball is recovered by B2 in B's end zone; (f) forward and
the ball rolls through and out of the end zone; or (g) backward and the ball is
recovered at the B31. RULING: In (a) the roughing penalty is enforced from the
B20, half the distance with first and goal for A at the B10; in (b) the roughing
penalty is enforced half the distance from the B5 yard line with first and goal for
A at the B 2 ½ yard line; in (c), (e), (f) and (g) the roughing penalty is enforced
from the B30 (previous spot) with first and 10 for A at the B15;
in (d) touchdown
for A and A is given the choice of enforcing the roughing penalty on the try or on
the subsequent kickoff per 8-2-2.

REPLY: Actually, AB...it was scenario (f) that matched my play. Scenario (e) was always previous spot since there was clearly a COP on that play.
Bob M.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed pass
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2011, 01:15:40 PM »
Right case, wrong highlight!