Author Topic: "Normal Defensive Movement "  (Read 7505 times)

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Offline TXMike

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"Normal Defensive Movement "
« on: December 20, 2010, 08:00:52 PM »
From Rom Gilbert's site: http://www.romgilbert.us/vidclip17.htm

Is this "normal defensive movement"  (#8 in white):

[yt=425,350]vB8Yo46U02g[/yt]

[yt=425,350]SkJijNUrZ-I[/yt]

Offline Osric Pureheart

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Re: "Normal Defensive Movement "
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2010, 08:52:59 PM »
In isolation, and assuming the coach doesn't tell me beforehand, absolutely not. 

Question is, what about if they did it regularly and the coach does tell us beforehand?  Every third play?  Every fifth play?  Twice a drive?  Every other drive?  There surely comes a point where the offense just has to get used to "this is what they like to do sometimes", hopefully by (legally) targeting the defender who's arsing around and giving him something else to think about.

I think this is a self-correcting issue.  If we beat it into submission with flags, we look petty and small-minded; if we just tell the offense to get used to it, they should be able to find a way of exploiting the disadvantage that the defender(s) are putting themselves at by rolling around, which will in turn make the defense and their coach look like too-clever-by-half idiots, and the problem resolves itself.

Offline James

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Re: "Normal Defensive Movement "
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2010, 03:31:34 AM »
I don't have a problem with the move. I seem to remember using the butt roll to shift on defensive line way back when I was in high school - it was practised to keep us low.
Offense can definatly use it to their advantage by snapping at the right time.

Question about the first clip - (note I am NOT a R so am asking to learn for the future) do you guys think the position of the R was good? I think he should be much farther out.

Offline beaye1

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Re: "Normal Defensive Movement "
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2010, 06:40:55 AM »
They only did this twice and it was on 4th down. I understand the roll, but the swithching of hands in a defense stance?  That's why there was an injury on the second one and they didn't do again the rest of the game.  I think they used this for the purpose to get a reaction and cause the false start.

Offline BankerRef

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Re: "Normal Defensive Movement "
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2010, 08:19:34 AM »
It is not just the movement in this case that causes a problem but it appears that there is verbalizing from the linebacker #5 to initiate the quick shift.  If this verbalizing in any way simulates the Ryan snap cadence you have to stop it.  You can hear someone over the referees mic saying he couldn't hear it.  I assume that may be the umpire responding to a question about the shift call but I guess it could be a player also.  

It's amazing the tricks some coaches try to use.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 05:24:55 PM by BankerRef »

Offline Welpe

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Re: "Normal Defensive Movement "
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2010, 08:38:04 AM »
I don't have a problem with it.

Diablo

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Re: "Normal Defensive Movement "
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2010, 01:55:12 PM »
In the second video ...
Just as Team B does its choreographed butt role X1 plus simultaneous hand-switch X3, Team A's right tackle lurches forward.  Shouldn't that draw a flag one way or the other?  Or does the injured B player override the foul?

Offline TXMike

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Re: "Normal Defensive Movement "
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2010, 02:01:58 PM »
The post game media reports say the injured player went out with a separated shoulder.  Not sure if he separated on that "cute" move or something happened in previous plays that was aggravated by the move.  He does the same move each time the "butt roll" is executed.  Seems pretty clear to me this was a movement (not a normal defensive player movement) designed to draw a false start.

There does seem to be a fair amount of time after the tackle (and wingback) flinch with no flags coming forth.  Maybe the officials were watching the defense's show.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 02:05:36 PM by TXMike »

MJT

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Re: "Normal Defensive Movement "
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2010, 10:00:33 PM »
If they did this only on 4th down, and the offense moves, I definitely have a foul on the defense.  ^flag

Offline James

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Re: "Normal Defensive Movement "
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2010, 04:02:28 AM »
What foul do you have on the defense? They were not in the neutral zone, didn't use disconcerning signals, and are not coming from farther than 1 yard back and making football untypical moves.

Then again, what does 4th down have to do with anything? Why would the down have any any bearing on wether this behaviour is afoul or not? I guess I could understand if you took DISTANCE into your factoring, but not what down it is.


Offline TXMike

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Re: "Normal Defensive Movement "
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2010, 05:46:30 AM »
7-1-5-a-4

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: "Normal Defensive Movement "
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2010, 09:03:16 AM »
 They were not in the neutral zone, didn't use disconcerning signals, and are not coming from farther than 1 yard back and making football untypical moves.

Not sure where this comment applies.  The applicable rule here (7-1-5-a-4) reads:  4. Player(s) aligned in a stationary position within one yard of the line of scrimmage may not make quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive player movement in an obvious attempt to cause an offensive player(s) to foul (false start). An official shall sound his whistle immediately [S7 and S21] (A. R. 7-1-5-IV).  PENALTY—Dead-ball foul
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 07:02:39 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline NCAA-SJ

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Re: "Normal Defensive Movement "
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2010, 09:31:33 AM »
I can't see what we have here against B.  I understand the discussion about the rule so that we can become familiar with it, but until something defines 'normal mvt', it's best to stay away from this.  B is allowed to shift, but nothing is in writing to say 'how' that shift can or cannot occur.  There are no unnecessary hand movements (that I can see) and they stay on their side of the NZ.  A knows the snap count, so don't move until you here it.

Merry Christmas to everyone.

Offline TXMike

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Re: "Normal Defensive Movement "
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2010, 09:43:04 AM »
This rule was tweaked years ago specifically to stop defensive teams from doing BS that gave them no advantage other than possibly draw Team A into a false start. It surptises me that the act in this video is not seen by all of us for what it is. Read the rule closely.  Why do you think it specificall y says thise defenders within 1 yrd of the LOS?  Because this movement this close to the LOS can cause a FS 

Diablo

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Re: "Normal Defensive Movement "
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2010, 09:57:03 AM »
I understand the discussion about the rule so that we can become familiar with it, but until something defines 'normal mvt', it's best to stay away from this.  B is allowed to shift, but nothing is in writing to say 'how' that shift can or cannot occur.  A knows the snap count, so don't move until you here it.

Merry Christmas to everyone.

For a start, I think AR 7-1-5-IV can be informative.

Linebacker B56 is stationary within one yard beyond the neutral
zone. As the offense is calling its snap signals, B56 feints toward
the line in an obvious attempt to induce a false start by the offense.
RULING: Dead-ball foul, delay of game. Five-yard penalty at the
succeeding spot.

Likewise wish for you.

MJT

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Re: "Normal Defensive Movement "
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2010, 05:18:38 PM »
What foul do you have on the defense? They were not in the neutral zone, didn't use disconcerning signals, and are not coming from farther than 1 yard back and making football untypical moves.

Then again, what does 4th down have to do with anything? Why would the down have any any bearing on wether this behaviour is afoul or not? I guess I could understand if you took DISTANCE into your factoring, but not what down it is.



Exactly as TXMike showed, and here is what is says.
7-1-5-a-4
Player(s) aligned in a stationary position within one yard of the line
of scrimmage may not make quick or abrupt actions that are not part
of normal defensive player movement in an obvious attempt to cause
an offensive player(s) to foul (false start). An official shall sound his
whistle immediately [S7 and S21] (A. R. 7-1-5-IV).
PENALTY—Dead-ball foul.

If they only do this on 4th and short, that is even more evidence of doing it for the sole purpose to cause A to FST. By the book, this is a foul whether or not A commits a FST, but it could be a situation where the officials only penalize B "if" A reacts. That is a philosophical issue that should be discussed amongst the crew, or maybe conference.

Offline James

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Re: "Normal Defensive Movement "
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2010, 05:42:46 AM »
This is why I love to read this board.
I had internalized this incorrectly. I had it in my head that if someone starting farther off than 1 yards comes forward and makes an untypical move it was a foul.
I think I was mixing 7-1-5-a-4 up with the wording of leaping.

Keep up the good work educating me!