Author Topic: UIL or TASO  (Read 222782 times)

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Offline TXMike

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2009, 09:57:24 AM »
and i would add to the list of what TASO does:

1 - a certification system (even if flawed it is a system for identifying with some degree of accuracy a ref's level of experience and preparation)

2 - a system for facilitating consistency in officiating across the state

blackandwhite1

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2009, 10:28:49 AM »
Brad it means I'm working football next year. We will get training, mechanics manuals (not the TASO owned ones) and a certification system that is currently in the works. Its just another rule change. Life goes on.

jjseikel

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2009, 10:38:27 AM »
Brad it means I'm working football next year. We will get training, mechanics manuals (not the TASO owned ones) and a certification system that is currently in the works. Its just another rule change. Life goes on.

Any of you Texans thinking about taking this shallow-thinking character out behind the woodshed?

Offline ETXZebra

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2009, 11:20:53 AM »
Any of you Texans thinking about taking this shallow-thinking character out behind the woodshed?

Maybe that is why he won't post his name and Chapter?

Offline TxGrayhat

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2009, 02:31:36 AM »
For those of us in the dark. As a member of Taso am I a member of a Union.?.Or is it an Organization of like minded individual Contractors. and If so do we have to choose one over the other? can we Dieon Sanders it and choose both...and if we do Tapps games won't we have to still be TASO members.  In my area TAPPS is growing and has as many games on a Friday night as the public schools. Is this all about dues paid to UIL vs TASO. ?  for most of us we just pay dues and never think about what that gets us aside from the right to call games. We need an education of what either group will offer.  Will UIL give the officials protection from lawsuits. Will they pay for injury's obtained during a game like they do for players? etc.  We are Uninformed what either group has to offer. For some they do have a dog in this fight they just don't know who the opponent is. Wish we could have a debate presidental style where both groups can present thier cases side by side.
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Elvis (NCAA)

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2009, 08:34:43 AM »
For those of us in the dark. As a member of Taso am I a member of a Union.?.Or is it an Organization of like minded individual Contractors. and If so do we have to choose one over the other? can we Dieon Sanders it and choose both...and if we do Tapps games won't we have to still be TASO members.  In my area TAPPS is growing and has as many games on a Friday night as the public schools. Is this all about dues paid to UIL vs TASO. ?  for most of us we just pay dues and never think about what that gets us aside from the right to call games. We need an education of what either group will offer.  Will UIL give the officials protection from lawsuits. Will they pay for injury's obtained during a game like they do for players? etc.  We are Uninformed what either group has to offer. For some they do have a dog in this fight they just don't know who the opponent is. Wish we could have a debate presidental style where both groups can present thier cases side by side.

((()))
No, you are absolutely not a member of a union. You are an INDEPENDENT contractor.

The real heart of the issue is that officiating must be completely independent of the UIL. The UIL are the schools & coaches. And to be under their thumb would be like literally letting inmates run a penitentiary. I'm not comparing the UIL to criminals, but the relationship of lawbreakers to a society's justice system is the same relationship that teams have with officials. Officials are the entire justice system for sporting events, and officials simply must be free of any possible influence from the participants. Sadly, this has never been the case with UIL sports. The UIL's system of selecting officials for contests has always left the door open for influence. But, at least there was somewhat of a separation between schools and officials with the UIL supporting TASO, mitigating the conflict-of-interest of schools/coaches selecting officials. If the UIL absorbs officiating, there will no longer be any sort of separation, and the conflict-of-interest will be 100%.
Apparently, the UIL is expecting TASO chapters to serve as their assignment agencies (because they damned sure don't have the infrastructure to make assignments), either as an intact (but powerless) organization, or with chapters abandoning TASO and switching affiliation to UIL (and directly answering to the UIL). I am confident that the vast majority of TASO members and chapters are more intelligent than the UIL thinks they are, and will simply decline to join the UIL or assist the UIL in making assignments. When the UIL are unable to fill even a fraction of the assignments for the first week of the 2010 season, they will be forced to recognize their foolishness, and re-open a dialog with TASO.
If they want TASO officials, then the UIL needs to abandon this attempt to absorb officiating within the UIL, and discuss in good faith how we can mutually resolve the conflict-of-interest issue, the "accountability" issue, and the compensation issues.

Offline ETXZebra

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2009, 11:04:25 AM »
Since we are getting down to time for the TASO (Dec. 6) and UIL (Dec. 18) meeting, how many Chapters have had a vote on whether to go or stay?  At this time, East Texas has not had a vote.

Offline TXMike

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2009, 11:25:58 AM »
Why do FB Chapters have to have such a vote at this early moment?  Did someone mandatethat?

Offline ETXZebra

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2009, 11:32:03 AM »
No, no mandate set.  I was just curious, with all the talk, if any chapters had voted.

Offline TXMike

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2009, 01:45:59 PM »
Received this from a volleyball official.


You need to find out how bad the volleyball officials were treated at the State Play-offs in San Marcos.  Officials were actually asked to leave the UIL's hospitality room, told where to sit in the stands and actually told not to mingle with other officials in the stands. 

Offline JasonTX

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2009, 05:59:25 PM »
Brad it means I'm working football next year. We will get training, mechanics manuals (not the TASO owned ones) and a certification system that is currently in the works. Its just another rule change. Life goes on.

Actually, UIL suggest theys did not intend to change any of the training or mechanics manuals that TASO produces.  They still want TASO to do all that stuff.   

Offline TxGrayhat

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2009, 06:07:27 PM »
Received this from a volleyball official.


You need to find out how bad the volleyball officials were treated at the State Play-offs in San Marcos.  Officials were actually asked to leave the UIL's hospitality room, told where to sit in the stands and actually told not to mingle with other officials in the stands. 

Why would they not allow them in hospitality room?   its for coaches and Officials..  No mingle is absurd why would they say that... Anyone know a Vollyball official willing to comment on this board???    Why such strongarm tactics.
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Offline Arbitrator

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2009, 09:08:36 PM »
^flag

What is all this talk of of "how certain chapters are going to vote?" In essence, they are TASO chapters but a lot of them feel that they have the "right" to defect to the UIL if they so choose. Where they are severely missing the boat is that "they are TASO chapters" and to that end, all property, records, computers, cash, bank accounts, tangible and intangible assets remain the exclusive property of TASO or to the members who want to continue representing TASO.

Several UIL Chapters in the other sports are getting prepared to be slapped over this in a local court of jurisdiction. Once that happens, is the UIL going to bail them out with contributions, loans, property, etc? With the serious financial shortfall prevalent with the public schools on a statewide basis, exactly where does the UIL expect to come up with the revenue to help the UIL Chapters to overcome these legal challenges and ultimate rulings?

I'm afraid that the UIL and the Superintendents came to a rash decision based on little to no legal precedence. Which ultimately goes to prove that this is nothing more than a "power play" on the part of the UIL. Those who conspired within the UIL ranks to bring about such drastic changes should ultimately lose their jobs for having exercised so little rational judgement and to blatantly promote a power play without having truthfully advised the state legislative or executive branch of their heavy-handed tactics!

blackandwhite1

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2009, 10:32:05 PM »
^flag

What is all this talk of of "how certain chapters are going to vote?" In essence, they are TASO chapters but a lot of them feel that they have the "right" to defect to the UIL if they so choose. Where they are severely missing the boat is that "they are TASO chapters" and to that end, all property, records, computers, cash, bank accounts, tangible and intangible assets remain the exclusive property of TASO or to the members who want to continue representing TASO.

Several UIL Chapters in the other sports are getting prepared to be slapped over this in a local court of jurisdiction. Once that happens, is the UIL going to bail them out with contributions, loans, property, etc? With the serious financial shortfall prevalent with the public schools on a statewide basis, exactly where does the UIL expect to come up with the revenue to help the UIL Chapters to overcome these legal challenges and ultimate rulings?

I'm afraid that the UIL and the Superintendents came to a rash decision based on little to no legal precedence. Which ultimately goes to prove that this is nothing more than a "power play" on the part of the UIL. Those who conspired within the UIL ranks to bring about such drastic changes should ultimately lose their jobs for having exercised so little rational judgement and to blatantly promote a power play without having truthfully advised the state legislative or executive branch of their heavy-handed tactics!
\
Wow Arbitrator, Did Ray Parker approve your message? That reply and the fact that you have only had 1 previous message on this board, tells me this is TASO's response to all of this. The thing that strikes me kind of funny is how everything TASO says or distributes is negative, and everything the UIL says and promotes is positive. Seems to me TASO knows they have screwed up big time and is desperately trying to save face. Time to move on!!!

Offline TXMike

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2009, 10:38:28 PM »
Spoken by one who has "only" 22 posts here, many of which are just on this one topic.  What have you ever contributed to the education of others here?  If you are the future of officiating under UIL then it will be much easier for me to get over missing officiating.

Cooter

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2009, 07:57:28 AM »
Just curious - did some research on UIL - I too was wondering how they would take on such an ambitious undertaking - especially with the cost they would obviously have to front - This is as much a question as a statement, but isn't UIL also the University of Texas?  The University of Texas is the single largest land owner in the state of Texas due to donations in kind - they are also one of the largest recipients of oil revenue due to said land ownership.  I don't see them not being able to mount a very formidable attack - if you are counting on them not having the resources, as some posts have implied, it doesn't make sense. 

fleetofoot

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2009, 08:17:08 AM »
This was sent by the Dallas Chapter to all the members.

There has been a considerable amount of information, misinformation, and discussion concerning the relationship between the University Interscholastic League (UIL) and the Texas Association of Sports Officials (TASO) during the month on November.
 
As Secretary of the Dallas Football Officials Association (DFOA), I have been in communication with the TASO-Football Board of Directors throughout this period of time as efforts have been undertaken to attempt to resolve any differences.  We should make no mistake; this is a serious matter which is not going to go away by simply doing nothing.
 

In October of this year, the UIL unilaterally changed the wording in Section 1204, which deals with officials, to remove TASO officials from working UIL varsity sports.  A major factor in making this change according to the UIL was to seek "an alternative with more accountability".  This is an insult to every official and officiating chapter in the state, and particularly to TASO-Football, which is recognized as the most effective organization in the nation with respect to training and development of football officials.

 

Texas has been a shining example of how schools and officials should interact.  This was accomplished through the efforts of the UIL and TASO working together.  Officials need to be represented by an organization that understands officials and is administered by officials.  We have never demanded anything, but have always been willing to discuss what makes football better for all involved - never forgetting that the student athletes are the ultimate beneficiaries.

 

The DFOA President, Vice-President, Secretary, and District 7 Representative are in agreement that the DFOA should continue to operate as we have in the past with the expectation that reason will eventually prevail.  We will pay our TASO dues as we have done in the past, contact schools for their schedules, and offer our services to the school districts as we have always done.  This is the same approach that will be taken by the other large chapters in the state, such as Houston, Austin, Fort Worth, and San Antonio, with the desire that this will be the approach taken by all chapters.

 

We will meet with the TASO-Football Board of Directors on December 6th as we continue to explore various options.  Many of you received a letter from the UIL indicating that they would have a registration meeting in San Antonio on December 18th.  Our officers do not plan to attend that meeting unless there have been discussions with the TASO Football board, and they indicate that they would like for us to attend.

 

It is our interpretation that the UIL has not acted in good faith.  The things that were said to us in the spring at the Presidents / Secretaries work shop have been violated over and over.  As questions have arisen, their explanations change as in becomes obvious that problems have not been adequately addressed.  A look at how they have acted with the other sports will tell you their intentions.  At the present time, they indicate that they want the TASO chapters to continue, do all the training, administration, and other work as they have done in the past - but we should send dues to them.

 

The DFOA is a proud organization which believes that we have always operated openly and with integrity.  We will continue to do that with the expectation that our customers appreciate the product that we are able to provide to them.


 

Offline TXMike

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2009, 10:13:19 AM »
This was sent by the Dallas Chapter to all the members.

There has been a considerable amount of information, misinformation, and discussion concerning the relationship between the University Interscholastic League (UIL) and the Texas Association of Sports Officials (TASO) during the month on November.
 
As Secretary of the Dallas Football Officials Association (DFOA), I have been in communication with the TASO-Football Board of Directors throughout this period of time as efforts have been undertaken to attempt to resolve any differences.  We should make no mistake; this is a serious matter which is not going to go away by simply doing nothing.
 

The Dallas Chapter (and all the State for that matter) have truly been fortunate to have Charles Stephenson all these years.  His experience, knowledge, and sense of the game are exactly what we will be losing (and what will be the most significant loss) if we lose TASO.  Anyone who ever heard CS speak and did not learn something has to be dumber than a rock.

Elvis (NCAA)

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2009, 10:29:54 AM »
Just curious - did some research on UIL - I too was wondering how they would take on such an ambitious undertaking - especially with the cost they would obviously have to front - This is as much a question as a statement, but isn't UIL also the University of Texas?  The University of Texas is the single largest land owner in the state of Texas due to donations in kind - they are also one of the largest recipients of oil revenue due to said land ownership.  I don't see them not being able to mount a very formidable attack - if you are counting on them not having the resources, as some posts have implied, it doesn't make sense. 

((()))
No doubt about it, UT has an enormous financial foundation. And, yes, the UIL is an entity under the Vice President for Diversity & Community Engagement at UT. But, between now and next September, no amount of money can train and give the years of experience, to the level of the current TASO membership, to the some 3,000 people that the UIL will need for the first week of the 2010 football season. With their resources, they might be able to recruit 3,000 people between now and then, but what kind of officiating will they be able to offer? The student athletes that will take the field that week, regardless of class, deserve better.
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Offline RMR

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2009, 11:23:28 AM »
For those of us not in Texas, but interested in this situation would it be possible to get a brief synopsis of what is going on?

Am I correct in my understanding that UIL is the state association to which the schools belong and that TASO is the association of officials in Texas - and that the schools in UIL contract with different TASO chapters to have their games offiiciated?

In La., we are all registered with LHSAA and all of the regular season assigning is done through our local (10) associations for the regular season and for playoffs LHSAA assigns games to the individual associations and then the association assigner assigns the individual officials.  The assigner reccommends officials for the state championship games, but the officials assigned must be approved by the asst. commissioner of LHSAA who is responsible for officiating.

How does TASO handle this differently now and what are the advantages of doing it that way.

Thanks.
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Offline Arbitrator

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2009, 12:22:11 PM »
One point of major correction to your post (and not at all taking sides here).  The chapters are their own entities and most, if not all, are registered non-profit orgs (501-(c)-3).  They do not "belong" to TASO, nor is their money or their tangible property owned in any way by TASO.  The money those chapters have in the bank and the computers and other equipment they own are property of the chapters (and their membership).

That being said, all a chapter would have to do is change their bylaws to exclude any mention of TASO.  The chapter could then move in whatever direction they wished, continue mandating members be a member of TASO or any other organization in order to be a member in good standing.
One point of major correction to your post (asnd not at all taking sides here).  The chapters are their own entities and most, if not all, are registered non-profit orgs (501-(c)-3).  They do not "belong" to TASO, nor is their money or their tangible property owned in any way by TASO.  The money those chapters have in the bank and the computers and other equipment they own are property of the chapters (and their membership).

That being said, all a chapter would have to do is change their bylaws to exclude any mention of TASO.  The chapter could then move in whatever direction they wished, continue mandating members be a member of TASO or any other organization in order to be a member in good standing.

It is very important that for everyone to realize that TASO (the state organization) does not own local chapter property or bank accounts.  But, any money collected at the end of this year for state dues for TASO is TASO money that cannot be diverted to any other entity.

If a chapter wishes to move away from TASO, all they have to do is change their bylaws to remove any mention of TASO or requirements that their members also be members of TASO.

I'm certainly not saying they should, but that they indeed can do this.  TASO would have no footing to stop this.

What cannot happen is a chapter deciding to have everyone register with UIL instead of TASO while their bylaws state otherwise.
It is very important that for everyone to realize that TASO (the state organization) does not own local chapter property or bank accounts.  But, any money collected at the end of this year for state dues for TASO is TASO money that cannot be diverted to any other entity.

If a chapter wishes to move away from TASO, all they have to do is change their bylaws to remove any mention of TASO or requirements that their members also be members of TASO.

I'm certainly not saying they should, but that they indeed can do this.  TASO would have no footing to stop this.

What cannot happen is a chapter deciding to have everyone register with UIL instead of TASO while their bylaws state otherwise.
^flag



 ^flag In response to TexDoc, and with all due respect; with some TASO Basketball Chapters that were coerced by the good UIL Dr. and his Hurdy-gurdy monkey disquised in the form of the UIL Director of Officiating~ if the TASO Chapter continue's to operate under its original by-laws with a representative membership, then that group is entitled to the assets of the organization. The defecting members should have summarily resigned and started to organize their own new Chapter with allegiance to any entity that they so desire. I still believe that that is pursuable in the proper legal jurisdiction. If you can provide legal precedents that support your argument, then I too might become convinced. In any event, I don't feel that the University of Texas or the State of Texas,  in good conscience, can allocate revenues toward fighting this issue for the UIL when there are so many school districts that are hurting and begging for revenues to functionally operate. The UIL accomplished all this by telling  each representative group what it is that they wanted to hear through misleading statements and untruths. To that end, they have led a "bad faith" effort to get their way.


The agenda of the UIL ultimately calls for the abolition of the gate system for varsity football games and will soon be implementing a flat fee system that is prevalent in the other states. They will offer token lip-service in saying what they will do for the officials in Texas, but will not even begin to be the advocate for officials that TASO already is.

fleetofoot

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2009, 01:21:42 PM »
I can see that if the large chapters hold their ground, the UIL will have to give in. There is no way to cover the games in Houston, Dallas, Austin, Fort Worth, and San Antonio with out those chapters as members. That being said, after the fact, Timmons has to go. There will be no way to have a working relationship between him and TASO.

Cooter

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2009, 02:14:54 PM »
Are there any football chapters in the state of Texas who have decided to go with UIL?  Or, is it too early for that type of vote??

Offline TexDoc

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2009, 02:21:14 PM »
In response to TexDoc, and with all due respect; with some TASO Basketball Chapters that were coerced by the good UIL Dr. and his Hurdy-gurdy monkey disquised in the form of the UIL Director of Officiating~ if the TASO Chapter continue's to operate under its original by-laws with a representative membership, then that group is entitled to the assets of the organization. The defecting members should have summarily resigned and started to organize their own new Chapter with allegiance to any entity that they so desire. I still believe that that is pursuable in the proper legal jurisdiction.

I think you're correct that the chapter cannot vote to be a non-TASO chapter when their bylaws state otherwise.  That was my point.  A more important point is that the chapter belongs to the dues paying members of a given chapter, not to TASO, not to UIL, not to mother goose.  They can change their bylaws and align with whomever they wish.

Please do not misunderstand my statement as saying that I believe any chapter should do this.  If a chapter votes to change their bylaws, then no longer pay dues to TASO and to pay them only to UIL, there's really nothing that can stop them.  The members of a chapter have that right, if it is done correctly.

Offline TXMike

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2009, 02:28:53 PM »
 They can change their bylaws and align with whomever they wish.


I am not a lawyer and do not play one on TV, but if the Chapters had filed anything to be designated as a not-for profit (or any other legal entity) I suspect they did it saying they were part of TASO.  So if they chooser to be something else now, wouldn't they have to redo that process as well as their internal by-laws?