RefStripes.com
Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: TxSkyBolt on April 13, 2018, 09:08:03 PM
-
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/alteration-football-kickoff-rule-approved
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Pace of play
After a touchdown, the play clock will be set at 40 seconds to expedite the extra point or two-point conversion attempt.
I envision a lot of reset to 25 if replay does not confirm score right a way
-
According to the story 40 sec clock set after kickoff as well.
-
Pace of play
After a touchdown, the play clock will be set at 40 seconds to expedite the extra point or two-point conversion attempt.
I envision a lot of reset to 25 if replay does not confirm score right a way
What's the percentage of the TD plays where the replay needs to take a closer look?
-
What's the percentage of the TD plays where the replay needs to take a closer look?
Kalle, I only discovered recently that NCAA crews (with replay) have been waiting on confirmation from the RO, before making the ball ready for play on the Try, following all touchdowns. So, if the 40-second clock starts right after a TD, there is the potential for a lot of ‘pumping up’ of the play clock. But, what we don’t know for certain yet, is when, exactly, the play clock is to start. Indeed, if it is to start when the PCO sees the TD signal, I believe we’ll see a lot of pumping. But, if the PCO is to wait for an official to secure the proper game ball to deliver to the U or C for spotting, that would significantly reduce the pumping, while still speeding the game to an appreciable degree.
Robert
-
Kalle, I only discovered recently that NCAA crews (with replay) have been waiting on confirmation from the RO, before making the ball ready for play on the Try, following all touchdowns.
I know that, but as I understand it (and as I'm from Europe, I might be wildly off) normally the RO confirmation takes seconds (obvious scores), not tens of seconds. But I guess we'll find out how long the RO confirmation normally takes next season :)
-
I know that, but as I understand it (and as I'm from Europe, I might be wildly off) normally the RO confirmation takes seconds (obvious scores), not tens of seconds. But I guess we'll find out how long the RO confirmation normally takes next season :)
No, you are correct. The vast majority of TDs only take a quick look by the RO to confirm. But, in the past, if the RO wanted to check a second angle, just to be 100% certain before he sent the "confirmation," it wasn't hurting anything, because the ball had not yet been declared ready for play. Assuming the 40-second clock starts on the TD signal (or very soon thereafter), as soon as the ball is spotted and the U/C clears the vicinity of the snapper, Team A has the right to snap the ball. If the RO hasn't yet confirmed, then I assume the U/C will have to stay on the ball until the confirmation arrives. If the PC gets under 25, then it will have to be 'pumped up.' I guess I would just like to see the PC start once a replacement ball is secured by a sideline official (and, perhaps, held overhead momentarily to signal the PCO to start the PC). The 3-4 seconds that might take could make all the difference in reducing the 'pump ups' to only those instances when the crew is having to move long distances to get into position (like, after a long punt return, interception, etc.).
On the other hand, if no one "above" is concerned about having a lot of 'pump ups,' then the RO can take his time, send the confirmation, and then the crew can just pump it up, as needed. If the PC is running, I suppose that will encourage the RO to move as quickly as possible to confirm (or stop the game), which might speed the game by a handful of seconds.
Maybe much ado about nothing, at least until it gets tested thoroughly.
Robert
-
Pace of play
After a touchdown, the play clock will be set at 40 seconds to expedite the extra point or two-point conversion attempt.
I envision a lot of reset to 25 if replay does not confirm score right a way
From what I understand, Replay will no longer confirm the score and we will no longer hold up the snap while they do this. They'll have to buzz down like if it was a normal 3rd down play.
-
According to the story 40 sec clock set after kickoff as well.
How on earth will 44 football players go where they need to go, as 8 officials take their positions while also swapping out a ball from the far sideline and setting the chains, in just 15 seconds?
And if it's a long return, imagine the chain crew trying to sprint to the correct yard line while 22 players are frantically crisscrossing the sideline in front of them.
The R is gonna be pumping the PC up to 25 about 99% of the time. The rules should have reflected this reality by just keeping it at 25 in the first place.
-
From what I understand, Replay will no longer confirm the score and we will no longer hold up the snap while they do this. They'll have to buzz down like if it was a normal 3rd down play.
That may be the case, If so, I actually expect to see more reviews, as a result. Team A scores a TD, the ball is spotted, PC is running, and A wants to snap before the RO can get a look. The RO will have no choice but to stop the game, even if it ultimately becomes an easy 'confirmed.'
But, like I said, we really won't know until it gets tried. Hopefully, someone can try it during spring scrimmages/games, and let us know how it worked.
Robert
-
Worked a spring game last weekend with no kicking but still bad PAT and used the 40 second clock after TDs.
First 3 tries were from the 8. Players will have to adjust their celebration time and coaches will have to have those plays and personnel pre-determined.
OC said to me, "good to know that if we want to go for 2 this season it's going to be from the 8."
We had 1 long TD (75 yards) and had to pump the clock.
-
Worked a spring game last weekend with no kicking but still bad PAT and used the 40 second clock after TDs.
First 3 tries were from the 8. Players will have to adjust their celebration time and coaches will have to have those plays and personnel pre-determined.
OC said to me, "good to know that if we want to go for 2 this season it's going to be from the 8."
We had 1 long TD (75 yards) and had to pump the clock.
From the 8?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
From the 8?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
After the 5 yard DOG penalty.
-
After the 5 yard DOG penalty.
So, if there is not RFP signal, can A still choose placement of the ball on a hash?
My mind says A fouled, but we did not have a RFP, so I think they can "move" it.
-
2-2-4-a states that the ball is ready for play when the ball is placed on the ground at or between the hash marks and the placing official steps away to his position. Even with the 40-second clock running, the ball is not ready for play until that happens. So, yes, Team A can still request the ball to be positioned to another location, until the ball is officially ready for play.
The bigger question, and it may be the real question you are asking, is: Is Team A to be given some leeway in making their request, after the ball is officially ready for play? There are times when the crew will be able to get the ball spotted very quickly, and Team A may still be contemplating where they want the ball. Under the previous culture, teams weren’t under a heavy gun to make this decision. If they are not to be given any leeway, then teams are simply going to have to change their culture, and have that decision already made, and ready to relay to the crew immediately upon scoring. Not out of the question for Team A on a “drive,” but possibly problematic with a ‘sudden change’ score (kick return, INT return, etc.).
Robert
-
I think the question Sonofanump is asking if team A can elect to change the ball placement after the DOG penalty is enforced. I think the answer to that is "no".
Edit: Elvis gives the reasoning in the previous comment.
-
I think the question Sonofanump is asking if team A can elect to change the ball placement after the DOG penalty is enforced. I think the answer to that is "no".
Concur.
Robert
-
That was my question, DOG on try, agree with reasoning per rule.
-
A discussion on another forum created an interesting point. The question was regarding the proper signal to use when a player "apparently" scores a TD, but there is a foul on the play. Is the TD signal appropriate? Or, just signal T/O? I believe most conventional thinking was/is to signal T/O, report the foul, and proceed with completion of the penalty. But there are/were some folks that would say to signal the TD, then report the foul and complete the penalty.
For that forum, and for NCAA prior to the play clock rule change for 2018, that was pretty much just an academic issue - it has/had no impact on the game. But, in NCAA for 2018 (and beyond!), it seems to me that it will be helpful to the PCO to definitely signal T/O, then proceed with the foul administration. Again, I am assuming the 40-second play clock for the Try is to start immediately upon the TD signal, although I am not at all certain of that. (None of my 'sources' still in FBS football seem to know that answer, either, yet, but I'll keep pestering them until they divulge the answer). On that assumption, though, when the PCO sees a TD signal, he will start the play clock, and it will run until he sees somebody signal T/O. But, somebody will need to signal T/O. In the absence of a T/O signal, the play clock should run. I would hope someone on the field would notice the play clock running and signal T/O. But, it is possible that might take some moderate amount of time, which could be confusing to the teams and the spectators.
So, the best solution is definitely to signal T/O in lieu of TD. Of course, if you don't have, and don't see, the flag, and you are covering the BC as he crosses the goal/catches the pass in the end zone, then you may not know about the foul. But, all the more reason to use good "timing" and check around before signaling the score. If you see somebody signaling T/O, then just hold up on the TD signal, and report to the R to make sure he knows there was an apparent score on the play. The official with the foul call needs to make a "big" T/O signal and whistle, to be sure everybody knows about the foul. Meanwhile the PCO has seen the T/O signal immediately upon the conclusion of the play, and is just holding, waiting for the results of the foul administration. Nice and smooth.
Robert
-
I've previously been in the camp of signalling the TD first, even if you know that it won't stand, but I do agree with your reasoning that with the new play clock it makes more sense to signal only T/O, even if the foul is by team B and the end result will be a TD. Let's see what CFO decides :)
-
The official with the foul call needs to make a "big" T/O signal and whistle, to be sure everybody knows about the foul.
I think official with the fouls should always do this.
I have always signaled touchdown if it is my goalline unless it was my flag on the field.
-
I have always signaled touchdown if it is my goalline unless it was my flag on the field.
That was certainly not wrong, and wasn't a potential problem before the 40-second play clock on Tries. But it may be a minor problem, now. However, I suspect that PCOs will become adept at looking for a reason to not start the play clock, or interrupt it immediately if he starts it when there has been foul called, and he didn't see a T/O signal.
Probably making a mountain out of a molehill, but something for folks to think about, and be sure everybody is aware of what could happen.
Robert
-
Y'all are overthinking this. Why would the play clock affect what signal you give? There are 3 possibilities:
1. If it's your flag, and your goal line, and the foul is on the offense, just stop the clock. No reason to signal TD when you know it's coming back. If it's on the defense, signal TD and then signal TO as you go to report.
2. If it's your flag but you're not on the goal line, you're going to be giving a big TO signal and tweeting repeatedly anyway, so nothing changes.
3. if it's your goal line but not your flag, then you'll signal TD anyway and let the foul-calling official signal TO.
Who cares if the PCO sets it to 40 when it's going to be 25? He'll realize what's going on soon enough. And it's not like the PC starting is going to affect anything at that point, since we'll be having a discussion anyway. I already tell all my play clock operators "If you're not sure, just start it from 40." If it's counting from 40 and we have a reason to put it at 25, we're going to be stopping the game anyway so we can always reset it.
-
Y'all are overthinking this. Why would the play clock affect what signal you give? There are 3 possibilities:
1. If it's your flag, and your goal line, and the foul is on the offense, just stop the clock. No reason to signal TD when you know it's coming back. If it's on the defense, signal TD and then signal TO as you go to report.
2. If it's your flag but you're not on the goal line, you're going to be giving a big TO signal and tweeting repeatedly anyway, so nothing changes.
3. if it's your goal line but not your flag, then you'll signal TD anyway and let the foul-calling official signal TO.
Who cares if the PCO sets it to 40 when it's going to be 25? He'll realize what's going on soon enough. And it's not like the PC starting is going to affect anything at that point, since we'll be having a discussion anyway. I already tell all my play clock operators "If you're not sure, just start it from 40." If it's counting from 40 and we have a reason to put it at 25, we're going to be stopping the game anyway so we can always reset it.
I was going to say the same thing. There are probably a handful of times during the game the PCO starts the 40 and then realizes there was a flag on the ground and stops it. There is no impact on the game either way.
We had 1 long TD (75 yards) and had to pump the clock.
Why should this be any different than any other long scrimmage play that doesn't end in a TD? We usually get that ball set and step away in plenty of time. There may be instances where we have to reset the play clock, but it's rare. Other than possibly getting a hash placement for a 2-point conversion (which will be rare), we should be able to get the ball ready without too much issue. The adjustment will be for the teams to shorten any celebration they want to do and get their try team ready on the field. For games with replay they need to figure how they will handle the replay confirmations on scores. One option will be to treat it like any other play replay is reviewing. If they anticipate the ball about to be snapped and they still need to look it, stop action for replay. If it's a quick and obvious review then proceed as normal. I think there could be some adjustment here as the season progresses and we see this in action.
-
The bigger question, and it may be the real question you are asking, is: Is Team A to be given some leeway in making their request, after the ball is officially ready for play? There are times when the crew will be able to get the ball spotted very quickly, and Team A may still be contemplating where they want the ball. Under the previous culture, teams weren’t under a heavy gun to make this decision. If they are not to be given any leeway, then teams are simply going to have to change their culture, and have that decision already made, and ready to relay to the crew immediately upon scoring. Not out of the question for Team A on a “drive,” but possibly problematic with a ‘sudden change’ score (kick return, INT return, etc.).
99% of the time this won't be an issue because everyone is going to kick the extra point, which is middle of the field.
If it's a 2 point situation, we should look to the sideline to see where they want it before placing it down.
If the rare occasion coach wants to go for 2 off script, then it's on him to get our attention if he wants it somewhere else.
-
99% of the time this won't be an issue because everyone is going to kick the extra point, which is middle of the field.
If it's a 2 point situation, we should look to the sideline to see where they want it before placing it down.
If the rare occasion coach wants to go for 2 off script, then it's on him to get our attention if he wants it somewhere else.
I just heard that the scoring coach has until 25 seconds to decide if they want to move the ball location. Same with kickoffs.
-
That sounds like the “leeway” I mentioned. So, the ball may already be, officially, ready for play, but they get 15 seconds of play clock time to request that it be relocated. So, at 28, they request left hash, and it takes 5 seconds to get the ball moved...do we pump it up? I would think not. They are on their own time, at this point, I gotta believe.
Robert
-
1. If it's your flag, and your goal line, and the foul is on the offense, just stop the clock. No reason to signal TD when you know it's coming back. If it's on the defense, signal TD and then signal TO as you go to report.
I know this is conference specific, but I don't like this philosophy. It can create problems and doesn't solve any problems.
Especially if there is a question as to whether the runner scored or not, just signal the TD. You never know when a crew mate may come over and take you off the foul that you thought was going to bring the play back. Now you are signaling TD a full minute after a tight goal line play and the crew looks like they are clueless.
Even if you stick with the foul, astute coaches will know by your signal if the next play is going to be on the ready or the snap in time sensitive situations. No signal and coaches will assume they need to hurry and snap the ball as soon as the foul is enforced. That causes a competitive disadvantage.
-
For what it is worth, three different guys in three different FBS conferences (one "power 5" conference) confirmed that they, and the PCOs, are being told to let the play complete itself, i.e., once the signaling official drops his arms, then hesitate momentarily (one thousand one, one thousand two, one thousand three), then start the play clock. After that, the teams are at risk of DOG, unless there is some really unusual delay in getting the ball spotted.
That would seem to be the right amount of time to at least secure the replacement game ball, and begin getting in to the U/C to spot. With this, I see far fewer "pump ups" than I initially imagined. I think we are "good to go."
Robert
-
For those in the dont signal touchdown if you have a foul that negates the score...you throw a flag for OPI as the receiver pushes off...ball is in the air and the receiver bobbles the ball in the end zone near the sideline. He barely gets control as he touches the ground very close to the sideline. He goes to the ground in the process of completing the catch....The whole world is watching and you signal timeout and report your foul to the R? I am sure that there are several coordinators that support the timeout signal vs touchdown signal but doesn't the rulebook call that a touchdown that is later negated by penalty enforcement?
-
For those in the dont signal touchdown if you have a foul that negates the score...you throw a flag for OPI as the receiver pushes off...ball is in the air and the receiver bobbles the ball in the end zone near the sideline. He barely gets control as he touches the ground very close to the sideline. He goes to the ground in the process of completing the catch....The whole world is watching and you signal timeout and report your foul to the R? I am sure that there are several coordinators that support the timeout signal vs touchdown signal but doesn't the rulebook call that a touchdown that is later negated by penalty enforcement?
I have always signaled what the result of the play is. The result of the play may be the deciding factor in whether the penalty gets accepted or declined.
-
For those in the dont signal touchdown if you have a foul that negates the score...you throw a flag for OPI as the receiver pushes off...ball is in the air and the receiver bobbles the ball in the end zone near the sideline. He barely gets control as he touches the ground very close to the sideline. He goes to the ground in the process of completing the catch....The whole world is watching and you signal timeout and report your foul to the R? I am sure that there are several coordinators that support the timeout signal vs touchdown signal but doesn't the rulebook call that a touchdown that is later negated by penalty enforcement?
I tend to agree, but my coordinator under no circumstances wants us to signal TD if we're bringing it back.
I gave the example of 4th down and a close play / pile up at the goal line and I have an ILF. If I come in with a stop-the-clock signal when the runner actually scored, the defense will think they made a stop. Then when we enforce the ILF, people are going to be confused. His response was to have the R include the result of the play in his announcement.
Now, if it's an obvious TD, then the stop-the-clock signal instead of a TD leaves no confusion.
-
Always do what your coordinator wants.
In reality, it probably doesn't make any difference at all, either way. If a TD signal is given, I would suggest that it be abbreviated, and followed by a BIG T/O signal by the calling official, as he moves immediately to the R to report the foul. This should get everybody's attention that "it ain't over," particularly the PCO, who will have positive information to not run the play clock. Again, this probably won't be a huge problem at all, but, it will certainly "play" better.
Robert
-
Always do what your coordinator wants.
In reality, it probably doesn't make any difference at all, either way. If a TD signal is given, I would suggest that it be abbreviated, and followed by a BIG T/O signal by the calling official, as he moves immediately to the R to report the foul. This should get everybody's attention that "it ain't over," particularly the PCO, who will have positive information to not run the play clock. Again, this probably won't be a huge problem at all, but, it will certainly "play" better.
Robert
I agree - this is the way I'd also handle it if I was allowed to signal the result of the play first. TD signal real quick followed by emphatic TO signal and run into the R.
-
See attached. Not really much here.
Robert
-
8-3-2-c and 8-6-2 both say that Team A must request the lateral location of the ball BEFORE the play clock is at 25 seconds. But, new AR 3-3-4-IV says "...less than 25 seconds..." Now, in the strictest sense, there is no conflict, because, indeed, if the play clock is under 25, they may not request the ball to be relocated. But most readers will interpret that to mean the play clock must be under 25 to be denied, i.e., a request with the PC AT 25 should be honored. That's not what the actual rule language says.
I'm going to use the stricter rule language, unless and until Shaw issues a ruling otherwise. Once the PC is at 25, any request to reposition the ball will b denied.
Robert