Author Topic: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?  (Read 8213 times)

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Offline Felo20

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Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« on: October 31, 2018, 01:44:04 PM »
Hi everyone,

My name is Felipe and I am one of the coaches of Barbarians (Montevideo, Uruguay). Last saturday we played one of the finals of the tournamet and this is what happen in the last play of the game:

https://youtu.be/xjIkXp9qNjY

You can see the line judge declare the out of bounds, but the umpire said the clock must keep running. The referee trusted on the guy who has most experience, so he declares forward progress, the clock keep running and the game was over.

The score at that point was 12-9 (we were losing)

We need help to know if the umpire was wrong or it was the right call (if it is, why).

From already thank you very much.

P.D: Im ver sorry for my english, it been a while

Felipe

Offline centexsports

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2018, 01:52:28 PM »
I think the Umpire should stay in his area.   This is the wing man's call.   He stopped the clock for the out of bounds and the Umpire should have set the ball for the next play.   I can see no reason to overturn the wing man's decision.   

Offline Felo20

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2018, 02:18:00 PM »
Thank you centexsports!

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2018, 02:22:12 PM »
The umpire should be given an opportunity to explain why he signaled for the clock to run.  But, as Centexsports said, the U really had no business 1) being out that far, except to retrieve the ball for spotting, and 2) signaling anything with regard to progress, or inbounds/out of bounds.

It is possible he believed the BC's progress was stopped inbounds, but that really isn't his call.  And, solely based on the view provided, it certainly looks as though the BC's progress was continuing forward the entire time, until he was out of bounds, so the clock should have stopped.

Offline Felo20

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2018, 03:04:48 PM »
Thanks ElvisLives!

Offline mardjam

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2018, 09:56:37 PM »
Hi, the Umpire here!

I really appreciate the opportunity to discuss this situation with such experienced guys. Our league is really amateur and we make an incredible effort to improve in every area.

My explanation on the play:

I was in front of the spot where the tackle occurred, not so far because the ball was snapped in the hash mark, and as I know the forward progress rule, the progress of the ball carrier was stopped by the tackler in bounds, and he was driven out of bounds then, the bc sought the contact and not the line, after the contact was made, his legs didn't move in order to gain yards, he was just taken out of the field clearly against his will. Maybe I had to let the decision on the LJ, but I was convinced that a forward progress call was correct in that situation.
I know the angle of the video isn't the most adequate, but I never see that the bc keeps going forward after the contact, even I can notice a kind of spin that reveals that his progress was stopped.
Of course I can be wrong, so I´d like to take advantage on the discussion to listen to a better explanation on why you think the forward progress was a bad call, even though we know it should've been the LJ decision.

I want to clarify some aspects of the final decision, the ref didn't trust the most experienced guy, he just trusted the most convinced explanation on the play, and I think it was the better way to solve the controversy.

Thanks so much and I'm looking forward to receive more feedback about the play.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 10:01:10 PM by mardjam »

Offline js in sc

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2018, 10:51:33 PM »
My problem , as an umpire, is not with your decision that forward progress was stopped.  My problem is why did you leave your primary area of responsibility, the LOS, to follow the runner.  That is the responsibility of the referee and the wing on that side.  As you turn that way to follow the play, you should be working inside out watching the line play and blocking, not the ball carrier.  The runner in the side zone is not your responsibility.

Offline mardjam

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2018, 11:28:10 PM »
I agree, I know my responsibilities, but in a 5 men crew I thought it was more important to follow the BC than watching the LOS after a "fake spike" situation, where the linemen were practically motionless. I knew that play was going to decide the game, so I left my main responsibility in order to help out the other guys. I accept my fault in that area, but I'm still convinced that it was a good call. What do you think?

Thanks in advance.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2018, 04:24:58 AM »
mardjam, the question I have for you is: do you trust the wing, the referee and the back judge to make the call? Or do you not trust them to make a pretty straightforward forward progress / out of bounds call, and are willing to overrule from a poor angle and not having seen the entire action?

I'm not going to give an opinion on which call is right, the video angle is bad, but as it is the wing's area of responsibility, as an R, I would really want a VERY good explanation from the U as to why he wants the clock to keep running (and would actually kill the clock to get that explanation).

Plus, as the U seems to be watching the ball, who is watching the linemen? Yes, the opposite wing has clean-up, but are you leaving him to clean up for about 16 players? Do you want to miss a critical personal foul (non)call on a critical play?

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2018, 04:53:47 AM »
As a GENERAL suggestion,  ANYTIME 2 officials, observing the same action, reach differing conclusions, conflicting signals is NOT the best solution.  As best possible, before any signal is given there should be some sort of indication from both suggestion their decision.

Should there be a signal, from one that the other doesn't agree with, AND finds it necessary to contest, NO SECOND signal should be given, and the two officials should immediately conference to determine who ACTUALLY SAW what.  Each of us have primary and secondary responsibilities, and primary responsibilities hold precedent (usually - although something ACTUALLY SEEN outweighs something perceived)

In-bounds/OOB is the primary responsibility of the covering Wing official, and unless their is egregious evidence to the contrary, his judgment should normally take precedent and be respected.  If another official has a SERIOUS dispute, the difference should be resolved by an immediate conference, PREFERABLY before ANY signal is given, which should ONLY be a single signal representing the collaborative decision.

Should a "difference" persist (rare) the Referee will likely settle any dispute (privately with the differing officials) and a single signal will announce the decision.

It's imperative to understand primary/secondary responsibilities and to respect the judgments of our crew mates.  Post-game review and discussions can prove to be helpful and constructive.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2018, 07:07:36 AM »
JMHO —

It appears from the video that forward progress was stopped inbounds.  That said, it’s a judgment call by the covering official — in this case, the wing.  He may “buck it up”, but it’s still his call.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2018, 07:48:08 AM »
JMHO —

It appears from the video that forward progress was stopped inbounds.  That said, it’s a judgment call by the covering official — in this case, the wing.  He may “buck it up”, but it’s still his call.

In my experience this is also a call that inexperienced wings tend to get wrong, they too often call the runner out of bounds when he is contacted inbounds and the force of the contact drives him back out of bounds. Still, it is his/her call to make, and any other official better be really sure to overrule.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2018, 09:14:27 AM »
Mr Umpire,

When we are in a time sensitive situation and the runner is trying to get out of bounds, we want the runner to CLEARLY be driven BACKWARD out of bounds to rule forward progress stopped and keep the clock running.  Looking at this play, it's not OBVIOUS that the runner is going backward when being driven out of bounds.  Therefore, we should rule the runner out of bounds and stop the clock.  I know that technically if you're driven out of bounds parallel that you can wind the clock, but we don't want to be technical at this point in the game (or ever).  50 drunks in a bar need to agree that his forward progress was stopped in bounds and driven backward.

I understand your thought process, but in this situation, the best thing to do would be to stop the clock.

I don't think this play was obvious enough for you to come in and overrule the LJ.  Good play to learn from

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2018, 10:33:38 AM »
Good discussion.  Now to the more important issue at stake.

How can I get a game there?  The ocean about 20 yards out of bounds.  What more can you ask for?   :bOW

Offline VALJ

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2018, 10:58:39 AM »
I'll preface this with saying I have no clue whether forward progress was stopped in bounds or out. 

In the limited time I worked R - before I saw reason and finally moved downfield to B, where I belonged all along - in the absence of a situation where it was clearly mucked up, I would defer to the man who has primary responsibility for the call. 

mardjam, your logic for following the play is sound, and sensible.  That said, the wing has been making that call all day (and presumably longer, since this is a tournament final).  Unless there have been issues with forward progress all day - and they've been getting overruled all day - jumping in to overrule in the closing seconds of the game just LOOKS bad.  It's his pond, and the only real time to fish in another official's pond is to save the crew from an obvious foul up that everybody in the world mucked up, or a flag for a safety issue that the official on the spot missed.


Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2018, 04:10:45 PM »
Mr Umpire,

When we are in a time sensitive situation and the runner is trying to get out of bounds, we want the runner to CLEARLY be driven BACKWARD out of bounds to rule forward progress stopped and keep the clock running.  Looking at this play, it's not OBVIOUS that the runner is going backward when being driven out of bounds.  Therefore, we should rule the runner out of bounds and stop the clock.

Bossman, since I have great respect for your judgment, I went back to the video to try to determine what made me feel differently.  That’s when I noticed that the receiver *could* have stepped OOB on his own to stop the clock.  Instead, he headed *away* from the sideline to try to pick up more yardage.  And I think that’s what triggered my “wind the clock” radar.

Offline psv

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2018, 09:11:34 AM »
So, the constructive criticism (and I would take it as constructive here) has been pointed at the U.

I have a question for the flank:  After seeing the U wind it, why didnt the flank kill the clock, grab the R, and the 3 of them have a quick conversation?  I would have explained why I had him out of bounds, then the U could explain why he wound it.  The R should defer to the flank in this situation (unless it is common for the U to rule on such things in this league).  I certainly would have defended my call on why I stopped the clock. 

Something else to think about on this.

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2018, 09:46:47 AM »
So, the constructive criticism (and I would take it as constructive here) has been pointed at the U.

I have a question for the flank:  After seeing the U wind it, why didnt the flank kill the clock, grab the R, and the 3 of them have a quick conversation?  I would have explained why I had him out of bounds, then the U could explain why he wound it.  The R should defer to the flank in this situation (unless it is common for the U to rule on such things in this league).  I certainly would have defended my call on why I stopped the clock. 

Something else to think about on this.
EXCELLENT POINT.
If guys dont see a call the same way, they can take the time to GET IT RIGHT.

i.e. I was U for a 7-man playoff crew several years ago. off-tackle play to the H side of the field. H flags the A tackle for holding B at the point of attack.
i pulled him over for who he had. he said the tackle.
I told him I saw it differently & the A that tackle driving the B player back as they passed by me (that's how much the tackle was overpowering the B player).
He stook with his call. (even though I disagreed)

But we talked about it and (hopefully) GOT IT RIGHT

Offline HoustonRef

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2018, 10:03:45 PM »
Awful judgment by the wing, forward progress was clearly stopped in bounds. This is definitely not one of those times where we would want to help the ball carrier and make him out of bounds bc he made no attempt to get out of bounds.

Offline goodgrr

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2018, 03:02:26 AM »
I would question the Umpires initial positioning, it looks to be very wide.  They have primary responsibility for the interior line, yet their vision is likely blocked by the outside linebacker.  On a pass play their initial movement should be towards the LOS as they take on responsibility for judging if the QB passes from beyond the LOS.

It also looks like they are moving forward when they move towards the ball.  If they were level with the end of the run I could possibly see why they decided that FP was stopped and the clock should wind.

This isn't their decision/signal to make though, so when seeing the wing make the determination they should go to them to discuss, not give a contrary signal.

The above is based on IFAF Mechanics  http://myiafoa.org/mechanics/mofo16/mofo.pdf.

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2018, 11:12:14 AM »
This was really interesting because that's all I did was headlinesman this year.  Based upon the video I would say his forward progress was stopped and the clock should have been kept running.  Maybe it was known that this wing official  was inexperienced and the umpire was trying to help cover, but I agree with the other posters that the umpire was out of his zone.

One thing I did see, however, was a blindside block by A6.  Do others see that as well and would you have called that?

thank you.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2018, 01:29:45 PM »
This was really interesting because that's all I did was headlinesman this year.  Based upon the video I would say his forward progress was stopped and the clock should have been kept running.  Maybe it was known that this wing official  was inexperienced and the umpire was trying to help cover, but I agree with the other posters that the umpire was out of his zone.

One thing I did see, however, was a blindside block by A6.  Do others see that as well and would you have called that?

thank you.

Derek, the block by A6 is perfectly clean.  Not a blindside block foul at all.  A6 is leading blocking for the BC, and just blocks the defensive back coming up to get involved in the tackle.  A blindside block only becomes a foul if it has the appropriate elements of targeting, and those are certainly not here.

Robert

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2018, 02:42:29 PM »
Robert, thanks for the feedback.  I took this following quote from NFHS article linked here: 

https://www.nfhs.org/articles/new-blocking-kicking-rules-address-risk-minimization-in-high-school-football/

in particular regarding the blindside block :  "The definition of a blindside block established by the committee is “a block against an opponent other than the runner, who does not see the blocker approaching,” and now results in a 15-yard penalty.

The committee stated that the blindside block “involves contact by a blocker against an opponent who, because of physical positioning and focus of concentration, is vulnerable to injury. Unless initiated with open hands, it is a foul for excessive and unnecessary contact when the block is forceful and outside of the free-blocking zone.”

In viewing the attached video it certainly looked like to me the defender did not see this block coming.  I don't think the blocker initiated with open hands so I think it could be ruled a blindside block.  I probably would not have called this as a blindside or targeting but I think the blockers need to learn to initiate with open hands (outside of the free blocking zone)  to help avoid injuries when the defender does not see the block coming.

Do you agree this is a borderline example?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 02:44:41 PM by Derek Teigen »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2018, 02:54:53 PM »
Derek,
Sorry, we both should have qualified our comments.  Mine are based on NCAA rules.  Can’t help you with NFHS.

Robert

Offline goodgrr

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Re: Forward Progress or Out of bounds?
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2018, 04:31:16 PM »
The video clip is from a game running under IFAF, which is predominately NCAA rules.