6-5-1 and 6-5-3 and ARs

[ElvisLives]

6-5-1-b describes the "extended" KCI protection offered after a B player makes a VALID fair catch signal and then muffs the ball.  The KCI protection extends while the ball is still loose from the muff, before it hits the ground, and the signaler still has an opportunity to complete the catch.  Great. No issue.  It also describes what happens when the signaler, or a teammate, completes the catch - the ball is dead, and is to be placed where the signaler first TOUCHED the ball.  Great.  Got it.  No issue.

Here's the rub.

2017 AR 6-5-1-I ruling says: "The ball is dead when and where B2 catches it." That makes sense, because the AR makes no mention of KCI, so 6-5-1-a and 6-5-3-a apply (or did in 2017, anyway).  Without KCI, when B muffs the catch attempt (valid or invalid signal), then anybody on the team completes the catch, the ball is dead where caught.

Fast forward to 2018.  AR 6-5-1-I ruling now says: "The ball is dead when B2 catches it and and the ball is placed where B1 first touched it."

The 2018 ruling would fit 6-5-1-b, if there was KCI.  But, the AR makes no mention of KCI, so then 6-5-1-a or 6-5-3-a has to apply, and the ball should be placed where caught.

Anybody have an explanation?

Robert

[Legacy Zebra]

As a whole, 6-5-1-b is about what happens if B gives a valid signal and then muffs the kick, KCI is only part of that. The first part is about what happens if A interferes with him, while the second part is about what happens if a B teammate catches the ball. The new language in the rule this year closed a loophole in the rule regarding a teammate catching a kick after a muff after a valid signal. Before this change, the ball only came back to the spot where it was first touched if the player who signalled caught the kick. Technically, if a teammate subsequently caught it, Team B would get the ball where he caught it. Now it doesn't matter who catches the kick, it will always come back to the spot where the kick was first touched.

All that to say, you don't have to have KCI for 6-5-1-b to apply. Anytime there is a valid signal and the kick is muffed, all parts of 6-5-1-b are in effect. If B1 signals and muffs the kick and B2 catches the kick, the ball goes back to where B1 touched it no matter what. Then if there is KCI, you can enforce it from there.

[JasonTX]

In the situation where the valid signal is given when B1 muffs the ball team A will not be able to challenge B1 for the ball.  The ball could perhaps be muffed forward to B2 who completes the catch and it becomes dead.  They gain an advantage since team A is likely backing off.

In the situation where no signal or an invalid signal is given, as soon as the ball is muffed, team A will be able to challenge B1 for the ball so it will not be a good idea for them to try and get tricky by intentionally muffing the ball.  I know that would be batting at the point but a team could pull something intentionally that appears to us to be a muff.

Team B has better odds at pulling something off like that when they give a valid signal so the rules prevent them from doing that.  We just bring it back to where it was first touched. 

[ElvisLives]

Legacy,

After careful re-reading of this rule, ARs, and bulletins all the way back to its inception in 2003, I can accept that KCI isn’t the deciding factor in placement of the ball following the catch.  My misunderstanding (apparently for the past 15 years) is a result of the inclusion of the placement of the ball in the same paragraph with the extension of KCI.  Would be much better to have made (or make) the ball placement it’s own paragraph, i.e, “When a B player makes a valid fair catch signal and muffs the kick, and the kick is subsequently caught by any B player, the ball is dead when caught, and the ball shall be placed where it was first touched by the signaler.”

Nonetheless, 6-5-1-b only addresses a muff by the signaler following a valid fair catch signal.  In that case, when the ball is subsequently caught by any team B player, the ball is placed at the spot where it was first touched by the signaler.  (6-5-1-b was edited for 2018 to include B players other than the signaler; that is not at issue.)  But, it does not address a catch after a muff following an invalid signal.  Therefore, 6-5-3-a has to apply, requiring the ball to be placed at the spot of the catch.
Either the rules need to be edited to match the AR, or the AR is simply wrong.

Robert

[NVFOA_Ump]

....... Therefore, 6-5-3-a has to apply, requiring the ball to be placed at the spot of the catch.  Either the rules need to be edited to match the AR, or the AR is simply wrong.
Robert

On my reading I believe that your statement " ...... 6-5-3-a has to apply, requiring the ball to be placed at the spot of the catch" is correct and what is intended here.  After a muff following an invalid fair catch signal, we simply have a loose ball (status kick) that is free to be caught or recovered by either team and team B has no KCI protection.  My thought would be that the words "or invalid" should not be in AR 6.5.1.I.

It probably should read:  After a valid or invalid signal, B1 muffs the punt and B2, who did not signal, catches the kick. RULING: The ball is dead when B2 catches it and the ball is placed where B1 first touched it.

[NVFOA_Ump]

And doesn't the Rule 2 definition need some work here as well?

[JasonTX]

Now that I'm fully awake I see what the original post was looking at with the mention of Valid and Invalid in the AR.  Too bad we don't have that statement in the rule book any more that told us what to do when there was a conflict between the AR and the Rule.

Considering that the AR 6-5-1-I was re-written did they just overlook that they left 'invalid signal' in there? 

With the other rule change on fair catching a free kick inside the 25, we know that a valid or invalid signal is treated the same with regards to moving the ball up to the 25 following the catch so maybe  AR 6-5-1-I is how they want it done with either a valid or invalid signal.

[ElvisLives]

RE:  Signal, then muff, then completed catch by B

In the deep recesses of my mind, I had recalled that placing the ball at the spot where it was first touched was for a valid signal only, and was intended to keep B from deliberately muffing the ball forward to gain an advantage.  Indeed, in the earliest bulletin from 2003 on this, that reasoning was expressed.  But, again, the rule only addresses (then and now) a 'valid' signal.  If Shaw now wants it to extend to an invalid signal - well, OK.  But change 6-5-1-b to match the AR, or vice-versa:

(if they want the same location for Team B possession, regardless if valid or invalid signal)

b.   Muffed Catch Attempt:
    1.   If a Team B player makes a valid fair catch signal, the unimpeded opportunity to catch a free or scrimmage kick continues if this player muffs the kick and still has an opportunity to complete the catch.  This protection terminates when the kick touches the ground.
    2.   If a Team B player who has made a valid or invalid fair catch signal muffs the kick, then he (or another Team B player) subsequently completes the catch (with or without kick catch interference by Team A), the ball is dead when caught and belongs to Team B at the spot where the ball was first touched by Team B.  (A.R. 6-5-1-I)


OR,(if they want different locations for Team B possession, depending on valid or invalid signal)

b.   Muffed Catch Attempt:
    1.   If a Team B player makes a valid fair catch signal, the unimpeded opportunity to catch a free or scrimmage kick continues if this player muffs the kick and still has an   opportunity to complete the catch.  This protection terminates when the kick touches the ground.
    2.   If a Team B player who has made a valid fair catch signal muffs the kick, then he (or another Team B player) subsequently completes the catch (with or without kick catch interference by Team A), the ball is dead when caught and belongs to Team B at the spot where the ball was first touched by Team B.  (A.R. 6-5-1-I) (2017)
    3.   If a Team B player who has made an invalid fair catch signal muffs the kick, then he (or another Team B player) subsequently completes the catch (with or without kick catch interference by Team A), the ball is dead when caught and belongs to Team B at the spot of the catch.  [(applicable AR reference)]

Personally, I prefer the separate locations.  But I can deal with either – just need to know which it is.

The language "(with or without kick catch interference by Team A)" eliminates any ambiguity or confusion regarding KCI in these situations.

(FYI, the above formatting would allow the rule to be changed without re-numbering the paragraphs; although coordination with the ARs would be necessary in the latter language.)

Guess I'll go back to work, now.

Robert