4th down signal

[RookieRef]

Can someone explain the 4th down signal that looks like illegal motion? It’s called “all in one “ I think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ElvisLives]

Can someone explain the 4th down signal that looks like illegal motion? It’s called “all in one “ I think.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you mean the rolling of the arms, like signal S19, that is a reminder between the crew that the special "4th Down Fumble Rule" will be in effect.  That signal was used by most crews until recent years.  Most FBS level crews have discontinued its use, using their radios to remind each other, or just simply being good enough to know the rule, and when it applies, without a reminder.  7-2-2-a-2

Note:  This rule also applies on all Tries.

[TXMike]

 I think many years back when the fourth down fumble rule came in, somebody thought officials needed an extra reminder that it was fourth-down and be aware if there’s a fumble that there’s a special rule .   I never understood the need for it since we already had fourth down signal, the clenched fist. But if your bosses tell you to do it, then you do it .   I have never heard it referred to as all in one and always assumed it was a signal for turning over which would be a reminder of the fourth down fumble rule

[RookieRef]

Thank you. Clarified!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ElvisLives]

I have never heard it referred to as all in one and always assumed it was a signal for turning over which would be a reminder of the fourth down fumble rule

Actually, it was a somewhat abstract simulation of losing the ball via a fumble, i.e., the arms losing control of the ball.  Like I said, abstract.

Robert

[goodgrr]

I don't know if it was just me not noticing previously, however I saw some NFL Refs do it recently.  Have they always done it and I've not seen it?

[JasonTX]

I have seen guys give the signal and still mess up the 4th down fumble.  I was like, why give the signal if you still aren't getting it right?

[ElvisLives]

I don't know if it was just me not noticing previously, however I saw some NFL Refs do it recently.  Have they always done it and I've not seen it?

Pretty unusual for NFL guys to use "reminder" signals of any kind.  They tend to take the approach that they need to be good enough to not need reminder signals, or even "corroboration" signals, other than player counts.  You don't see LOS guys making any signals with regard to folks on the line/in the backfield.  Since the rule change (more than 4 in the backfield versus minimum 7 on the line), NCAA guys don't do that much, either.
But, you may see some guys using such signals.

Robert

[GA Umpire]

Can someone explain the 4th down signal that looks like illegal motion? It’s called “all in one “ I think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rookie:
If you were watching a game officiated under NFHS rules, the signal is to remind the Referee and Umpire to protect the snapper if the offense is in a "scrimmage kick" formation.

NFHS does not have a "4th down fumble rule".

[TXMike]

Is that used in nfhs if team is attempting FG on 3d down?

[GA Umpire]

Is that used in nfhs if team is attempting FG on 3d down?

Yes, if the team is in a scrimmage kick formation. 
If they have incorrect numbering for 3rd down is another penalty.

2-14-2; 9-4-5

[Ralph Damren]

As mentioned, in NFHS that - along with the yell of :SNAPPER'S GOT PROTECTION" -is that usage of that crew signal. On 4th down, we indicate with a clinched fist and yell : "CLOCK KILLER....CLOCK KILLER". Remember, guys, if the 4th down play ends with an incomplete pass you need to move the downs marker by the length of the football, as what used to be the forward point of the ball is now the back point.

[ElvisLives]

Remember, guys, if the 4th down play ends with an incomplete pass you need to move the downs marker by the length of the football, as what used to be the forward point of the ball is now the back point.

Probably the most unknown element of officiating, even among active officials.  Everybody wants the leave to "box" (down indicator) right where it is and just flip the ball over.  No.  When a down is established, there are two lines of scrimmage, one for each team, and those lines remain exactly where they are, even after a 4th down incomplete pass.  The biggest grief that we hear is when team A throws four consecutive incomplete passes after a touchback.  When former Team B lines up to snap the ball (now Team A), the "front" end of the ball is now some 11 7/16" nearer to new Team B's goal line.  Wrong, wonderboy.  The ball is in exactly the same place as it was for the previous down.  "But the ball is on the wrong side of the 20!!!"  Wrong, again, amigo.  "But (new) team A now only has 19 yards, 2 feet to score a touchdown.  That should be 20 yards!"  And wrong, yet again, cap'n.  Original team A always had 80 yards and 2" to go to score a TD.  Or 19 yards, 22" inches or so to give up a safety.

If not, what would you do when Team A throws a 4th down incomplete pass from the B-6" line? Flipping the ball over would put it in the end zone.  No.  Just place it back where it was for the previous down, move the down box to the other end of the ball, and set the chains.  Easy.

Robert

[Morningrise]

I've always been told that, yes, this is the rulebook-proper way to reset the chains after a turnover on downs. But I've also always been told to ignore the rulebook-proper rigor in numerous situations. To wit: "Start a new possession on a tick."

The reasoning is, coaches don't care about precision after a punt return, and coaches and officials alike prefer the certainty of knowing that the line to gain is exactly at the white of a hash mark. Even when I have positive knowledge that the punt returner advanced the ball to the 28.5, I've never met an official or a supervisor who didn't advise putting it exactly on the 29 or the 28.

Does that reasoning not also apply after a turnover on downs? Unless we were inside the 10 yard line where inches matter? In my games, when the down box is on a tick and the 4th down pass is incomplete, I've never had a U whose standard procedure was to put the ball right where it used to be. And I've never had a boss or even an R tell me that's how he wants it done.

I *have* done it when the previous spot happened to have the ball's "old tail" on the tick - because now the new nose is on the tick. Even so, the veteran chain crew muttered some unfriendly comments implying I was an idiot for thinking this was proper. Obviously a chain crew's conception of right and wrong means squat, but I would hazard a guess that their opinion is more similar to that of veteran Rs and Us than you might think. When the old nose is on the tick and the goal line isn't nearby, do coaches and Rs and supervisors really want to start a possession with the chains floating between ticks?

[Kalle]

When the old nose is on the tick and the goal line isn't nearby, do coaches and Rs and supervisors really want to start a possession with the chains floating between ticks?

I did an informal poll on the following question, and based on the winning answer I'd say: definitely no.

"Line to gain is at A-40. A33 advances the ball so that the nose of the ball is on the team B edge of the A-40 yard line. As team A coach, would you care if the officiating crew first determines that it is obviously a new series and then puts the ball down so the nose of the ball is on the team A edge of the A-40 yard line?" I got one or two "yes" answers, almost everybody said "couldn't care less."

[Ralph Damren]

In NFHS, crew communication of rolling the hands is when K is in scrimmage kick formation as a reminder of snapper protection. Our 4th down signal is merely punching a fist into the air. I made a similar signal at 1:28 AM EDT as OUR Red Sox left fielder made a game saving catch . OUR radio announcer fell out of his chair. HELPFUL HINT: If you have DirecTV, mute it and listen to the radio - you'll hear what will happen in 8-10 seconds. You'll then know when to wake up/pay attention ....

  Time for some clam broth expresso 

[Tom.OH]

In NFHS, crew communication of rolling the hands is when K is in scrimmage kick formation as a reminder of snapper protection. Our 4th down signal is merely punching a fist into the air. I made a similar signal at 1:28 AM EDT as OUR Red Sox left fielder made a game saving catch . OUR radio announcer fell out of his chair. HELPFUL HINT: If you have DirecTV, mute it and listen to the radio - you'll hear what will happen in 8-10 seconds. You'll then know when to wake up/pay attention ....

  Time for some clam broth expresso 

Is your left fielder the only person from Cincinnati you like 

[js in sc]

We use the rolling fists on a field goal attempt to remind each other that the ball remains live following the kick.

[VALJ]

We use the rolling fists on a field goal attempt to remind each other that the ball remains live following the kick.

Ditto for us.  We're not using it as a crew for protection; we're using it as a crew to remind ourselves not to blow the whistle when it's blocked, or coms up short but doesn't reach the end zone.