Author Topic: Arrested in the Middle of a Game  (Read 41067 times)

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Offline Welpe

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #50 on: October 17, 2013, 08:30:00 AM »
I am always kind of amazed on discussion boards that some officials seem not to support other officials.

True but it's not just on discussion boards, there are plenty willing to throw others under the bus in real life.

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #51 on: October 17, 2013, 08:30:54 AM »
Agreed

Offline Aussie-Zebra

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #52 on: October 17, 2013, 08:32:42 AM »
Well said John  :thumbup
For every coach that thinks we got it wrong there's another that thinks we got it right.

Offline James

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2013, 08:42:32 AM »
What surprises me is the number of people who have an opinion without having seen the play - well in this case heard the reports or testimony.

I disagree that we should stick up for the officials involved NO MATTER WHAT. I don't like the way they were treated - but we don't REALLY know what was said. MAYBE he did say something threatening or poked him in the chest or something. I don't know, and I'm not going to take a stand one way or the other.

It is a shame that an incident boiled up to something like that, and you would think that the official would have learned to have thick skin over time. You would also like to think that officers of the law would not over react or pull rank just because they can.

Sometimes the best thing to do (learning from having 2 young children here) is to take a deep breath and then just take another one.

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2013, 09:00:26 AM »
James,

I agree. From the reports, it is not even clear to me if someone was in the restricted area. The reports mention the area of the track. In downstate Illinois, I would be happy to have the fans back as far as the track, most of our small schools have a fence or cable inside of the track.

If our focus is on the fans behind us, then we are not paying attention to the work in front of us. Trouble can find us, we don't have to go looking for it.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2013, 09:15:31 AM »
It's not the fact that "we need to stick together".  It's the fact that many of us are realists and realize that it takes some ego to do what we do and it takes some ego to be a cop.  Add two testosterone fueled, authoritative Type A's together and it can blow up quickly, much as this situation appears to have done.  Both sides will eventually come to a realization that some aspects could have been handled much better than they were.

I do find the police officer's response to the situation agregious and improper.  I find the fact that the "investigator" is a witness to the event a travesty.  As a Captain and the superior officer present, he could have diffused the whole thing but he was "sticking together" too.  That attitude doesn't always make it right.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2013, 09:30:05 AM »
From the reports, it is not even clear to me if someone was in the restricted area. The reports mention the area of the track.

Regardless of where the fans were, if the wing official felt he needed that space to do his job, he was well within his rights to ask that the area be vacated.  We have had that problem with photogs, stat people, etc from time to time.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2013, 09:52:18 AM »
I am always kind of amazed on discussion boards that some officials seem not to support other officials.  It is true that the officials may not have treated the officer with the utmost respect after they asked the officer to move the crowd back.  Just because a police officer is treated with a lack of respect does not justify an arrest.  There is still something in this country called the first amendment that allows citizens to express their opinions to public officials (freedom of speech).  There is nothing in these actions that justified an arrest period, and certainly those two brother officials did not deserve to spend the night on a concrete floor.  For some on this board to somehow say the officers were even remotely correct in this situation is an offense to fellow officials.

There is something called the Blue Line which implies that police officers will always stick together in these situations (often even when they are wrong).  As officials we should follow their lead and have a solid Zebra Line.  These officials deserve our support.  I hope this never happens to me because some police officer perceives a lack of respect on my part.

1.  There should be nothing like the "Zebra Line", just like there should be nothing like the "blue Line", ESPECIALLY on a board like this.  This is a discussion board about officiating.  That means dissecting what happened, and sometimes critiquing that, even criticizing, if it helps to improve the profession.

2.  "Just because a police officer is treated with a lack of respect does not justify an arrest."  That in itself is absolutely true.  But there is also NO reason for the official to have ever treated the officer (or a coach, or a player or an administrator) with a lack of respect.  If you want to be respected, the best way to do it is to respect others.

3.  The First Amendment right to freedom of speech is not absolute, even against a government official.  You do not have the right to say anything you want to a government official.  Threaten to shoot the President and see what happens.

4.  Was there something here that justified an arrest?  I seriously doubt it.  But I don't KNOW, there might have been.  IF (and it's a major IF)  some of the witness accounts are true, such as "ejecting" a police officer, the the officials overstepped their bounds.  If they threatened the officer in any way, they they absolutely deserved to spend the night in a cell, and may have a few others as well.

None of us were there.  We are only reading reports that come from different sources, all with thier own biases.  Was the officer wrong?  My OPINION is yes, he was absolutely wrong, and the Covington Police Chief and Mayor now have a disaster of a PR problem on their hands.

But were the officials also worng?  Absolutely.  No matter what form of "leave" they told the officer that was giving them a problem, their solution was to call over the game manager, and say, "Here is our problem.  Either it gets fixed, or we are going to have to stop play until it is fixed."  Obviously, they didn't do that, they took matters into their own hands, to at least some level.

You can call it a POURING contest, or too much ego, or too much testosterone, or whatever you want.  NO ONE handled this well.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2013, 10:42:26 AM »
If anything is to be learned from this it is to accept, when you arrive at the field, that no one there is neutral. ADs, concession vendors, rent-a / real cops, scribes, even other coaches there to scout, probably have a favorite. Some may even have kids on the teams - "Father Bear" is always going to protect anything he precieves going against "Baby Bear". Every few years we have a meeting entitled : "Ms. Manner's & don'ts for zebras". Some discussion topics are : (1) Don't be afraid to overuse these three words - PLEASE, & THANK YOU. Example - big ole' Bubba's dad & buddies crowding the sideline , "Guys, for the safety of the kids, could you PLEASE move back behind the ________, THANK YOU."  & "Officer Smitty, can you PLEASE help everyone to move safely back behind the______ , THANK YOU." (2) Don't discuss players or teams within earshot of anyone - Father Bear may be listening! (3) Don't wear clothes that have either team's school colors to the game - some will think you came from that school, don't give them any ammo! (4) Politely turn down vanity plates from your spouse identifying you as an official - this may be putting a bullseye on you car for a POed fan - a wild necktie is a safer gift! (5) Don't park next to a team bus. Enough for today, time for some lobster chowder....

Offline Tom.OH

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2013, 12:07:38 PM »
If anything is to be learned from this it is to accept, when you arrive at the field, that no one there is neutral. ADs, concession vendors, rent-a / real cops, scribes, even other coaches there to scout, probably have a favorite. Some may even have kids on the teams - "Father Bear" is always going to protect anything he precieves going against "Baby Bear". Every few years we have a meeting entitled : "Ms. Manner's & don'ts for zebras". Some discussion topics are : (1) Don't be afraid to overuse these three words - PLEASE, & THANK YOU. Example - big ole' Bubba's dad & buddies crowding the sideline , "Guys, for the safety of the kids, could you PLEASE move back behind the ________, THANK YOU."  & "Officer Smitty, can you PLEASE help everyone to move safely back behind the______ , THANK YOU." (2) Don't discuss players or teams within earshot of anyone - Father Bear may be listening! (3) Don't wear clothes that have either team's school colors to the game - some will think you came from that school, don't give them any ammo! (4) Politely turn down vanity plates from your spouse identifying you as an official - this may be putting a bullseye on you car for a POed fan - a wild necktie is a safer gift! (5) Don't park next to a team bus. Enough for today, time for some lobster chowder....


I'll add to Ralphs list. For #3 I look at the OHSAA website for the school colors, if I do not know them, and I wear other colors. IE red/white vs green/white, I will wear a blue shirt .
Where my parents live at the high school field there are 5 parking spots marked "reserved for football officials", no one ever parks there my dad says!
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Offline RMR

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #60 on: October 17, 2013, 04:17:56 PM »
Charges Dropped:

Covington mayor: Charges to be dropped against refs ADVOCATE STAFF REPORTS

October 17, 2013
0
Comments Charges will be refused against two high school referees arrested at a Covington football game last week, the city’s mayor said Thursday.

At a news conference, Mayor Mike Cooper apologized to the officials, and said he apologies for how the incident between a Covington Police Department officer and the referees was handled. He requested that St. Tammany Parish District Attorney Walter Reed drop the charges and he agreed to do so.

Head referee James Radcliffe and line judge Chris Gambino were arrested for public intimidation during Friday’s football game between Mandeville High School and St. Paul’s.

The Greater New Orleans High School Officials Association stood behind its officials, saying they would refuse to referee the remaining Covington games of the season if Covington police officers provided security.

Early reports indicated that the officials were arrested midway through the third quarter after an exchange of words that began between Gambino and a Covington police officer. The official reportedly wanted fans moved back from the sidelines. Radcliffe intervened and he too was arrested.

They were booked into the Covington jail and held until early the next morning, when they were released on bond.

After Friday’s game, then-interim Covington Police Chief Jack West defended the arresting officer’s actions, saying he acted appropriately based on witness and video accounts. Records show that the officer was Covington police Lt. Stephen Short, whose son plays for Mandeville High School.

A new chief for the Covington Police Department, Tim Lentz, was sworn in this week.

“To me it was a no brainer to do this,” said Lentz, who previously spent decades working for the St. Tammany Sheriff’s office. “We apologize with all our hearts for the events that took place Friday night. It should’ve been handled differently.”

"Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's wrong."

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #61 on: October 17, 2013, 04:27:58 PM »
What's the over/under on the day the lawsuit will be filed?
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline FBUmp

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #62 on: October 17, 2013, 09:49:21 PM »
What surprises me is the number of people who have an opinion without having seen the play - well in this case heard the reports or testimony.

I disagree that we should stick up for the officials involved NO MATTER WHAT. I don't like the way they were treated - but we don't REALLY know what was said. MAYBE he did say something threatening or poked him in the chest or something. I don't know, and I'm not going to take a stand one way or the other.

It is a shame that an incident boiled up to something like that, and you would think that the official would have learned to have thick skin over time. You would also like to think that officers of the law would not over react or pull rank just because they can.

Sometimes the best thing to do (learning from having 2 young children here) is to take a deep breath and then just take another one.

I am quite comfortable supporting Mr. Radcliffe and Mr. Gambino, as was NASO, the Greater New Orleans Football Officials Association, the Louisiana High School Officials Association and the Louisiana High School Athletic Association.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2013/10/covington_mayor_mike_cooper_sa.html

Offline VALJ

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #63 on: October 18, 2013, 08:39:44 AM »
(4) Politely turn down vanity plates from your spouse identifying you as an official - this may be putting a bullseye on you car for a POed fan - a wild necktie is a safer gift!

Where my parents live at the high school field there are 5 parking spots marked "reserved for football officials", no one ever parks there my dad says!

Agreed greatly on both.  My wife suggested the vanity plate at one point after a couple of seasons, and I shot it down before she could even finish the sentence...

Offline Eastshire

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2013, 01:29:12 PM »
But were the officials also worng?  Absolutely.  No matter what form of "leave" they told the officer that was giving them a problem, their solution was to call over the game manager, and say, "Here is our problem.  Either it gets fixed, or we are going to have to stop play until it is fixed."  Obviously, they didn't do that, they took matters into their own hands, to at least some level.

Unless I've read the accounts incorrectly, this is exactly what they were trying to do when they were arrested. The officer's purpose in arresting them was to prevent them from going to game management.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2013, 01:47:29 PM »
Unless I've read the accounts incorrectly, this is exactly what they were trying to do when they were arrested. The officer's purpose in arresting them was to prevent them from going to game management.
Some accounts of the game say that the officials "ejected" the police officer.  IF that's true, and I have no idea if it is or not, then that would be a mishandling of the situation.

Obviously, the result shows that the police officer should shoulder most, if not all of the blame.

Offline Curious

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2013, 01:57:23 PM »
I'll add to Ralphs list. For #3 I look at the OHSAA website for the school colors, if I do not know them, and I wear other colors. IE red/white vs green/white, I will wear a blue shirt .

Tom, would that ever be maize and blue? :sTiR:

Offline RMR

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #67 on: December 17, 2013, 02:56:04 PM »
Well, Captain West is back in the news.  Brilliant.





Covington police captain placed on paid administrative leave after weapon discharges inside station

Covington police Capt. Jack West has been placed on paid administrative leave after a 12-gauge shotgun discharged in his office Wednesday, Chief Tim Lentz said. West was in the process of issuing the weapon to a new recruit when it discharged, Lentz said.

Lentz said issuing weapons is part of West's job. West failed to determine whether the gun was loaded before he issued it on Wednesday, he said.

All new recruits are issued a 12-gauge shotgun and a rifle, Lentz said.

No one was hurt when the weapon discharged, Lentz said, but there is a hole in the ceiling of West's office.

Lentz said the police department is conducting an internal investigation in accordance with civil service guidelines.

West did not return a message seeking comment.

West is a 30-year veteran of the Covington Police Department.

He served as interim chief from April through October, after Covington Mayor Mike Cooper fired former chief Richard Palmisano. He was among the applicants for the chief's position.

West was one of two Covington police officials investigated following the arrests of two referees during a high school football game in October. That investigation is complete, and Lentz said he hopes to hold pre-disciplinary hearings with West and Lt. Stephen Short and their attorneys next week.

Lentz would not say Friday whether the gun incident would have any impact on the hearing in the referee case.
"Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's wrong."

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #68 on: December 17, 2013, 04:06:58 PM »
Covington police Capt. Jack West Barney Fife has been placed on paid administrative leave after a 12-gauge shotgun discharged in his office Wednesday, Chief Tim Lentz said. West Fife was in the process of issuing the weapon to a new recruit when it discharged, Lentz said.

Lentz said issuing weapons is part of West's Fife's job. West Fife failed to determine whether the gun was loaded before he issued it on Wednesday, he said.

All new recruits are issued a 12-gauge shotgun and a rifle, Lentz said.

No one was hurt when the weapon discharged, Lentz said, but there is a hole in the ceiling of West's Fife's office.

Lentz said the police department is conducting an internal investigation in accordance with civil service guidelines.

West Fife did not return a message seeking comment.

West Fife is a 30-year veteran of the Covington Police Department.

He served as interim chief from April through October, after Covington Mayor Mike Cooper fired former chief Richard Palmisano. He was among the applicants for the chief's position.

West Fife was one of two Covington police officials investigated following the arrests of two referees during a high school football game in October. That investigation is complete, and Lentz said he hopes to hold pre-disciplinary hearings with West Fife and Lt. Stephen Short Gomer Pyle and their attorneys next week.

Lentz would not say Friday whether the gun incident would have any impact on the hearing in the referee case.
Fixed it for 'ya, Anj! This is straight out of Mayberry. (Slow day here in the office).
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 04:09:53 PM by Rulesman »
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2013, 06:05:04 AM »
Quote
West is a 30-year veteran of the Covington Police Department.

His chances of making it to 31 are about the same as mine of winning the Mega Millions.

Offline VALJ

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2013, 07:40:47 AM »

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #71 on: December 18, 2013, 03:06:32 PM »

Offline RMR

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2013, 01:46:47 PM »
UPDATE:

Covington police officer suspended, demoted for referee arrests .

Posted on December 30, 2013 at 1:20 PM

Updated today at 1:35 PM

WWLTV.com
Email: webteam@wwltv.com | Twitter: @WWLTV

COVINGTON, La. --  Police Chief Tim Lentz says he has issued a 10-day suspension for Lt. Stephen Short for the arrest of two referees at a high school football game.

Short was demoted to sergeant and can return from suspendion on Jan. 15, Lentz said.

On Oct. 11, Short arrested two referees during a St. Paul's vs. Mandeville game in Covington.

Christopher Gambino, 55, of River Ridge and James Radcliffe, 54, of Metairie, were both charged with one count of public intimidation for their involvement in an argument with Covington Police Officers during the third quarter of the game. The charges were later dropped.

According to a release from Covington Police, Short violated department policy after getting physical during the arrest of the referees. "The night of the incident, Lt. Short failed to seek any alternatives.  The referees posed no risk to the officers," said a statement from Covington Police.

Short also "failed to exercise reasonableness, and failed to consider the surrounding circumstances.  By arresting two referees, he brought a terrific high school football game to a halt," police said.

"Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's wrong."

Offline yarnnelg

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2014, 07:02:09 PM »
Seems this escalated way beyond what was necessary. The Head Linesman should have fired the chain crew instead of getting into a debate.

I'll joke with cops, but will not tell them how to do their job. The official should have explained how far back everyone needed to be moved. Then let the cop do his job. There are far too many times we depend on those guys to protect us.

Offline prab

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Re: Arrested in the Middle of a Game
« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2014, 09:40:51 PM »
Seems this escalated way beyond what was necessary. The Head Linesman should have fired the chain crew instead of getting into a debate.

I'll joke with cops, but will not tell them how to do their job. The official should have explained how far back everyone needed to be moved. Then let the cop do his job. There are far too many times we depend on those guys to protect us.

WOW!!!

Don't the facts that the charges against the officials were dropped and the cop was suspended, imply that the escalation was initiated and carried out entirely by the officer?  I believe that your attempt to place some of the blame for this incident on the officials is, to say the least, unwarranted.