Author Topic: Butt Snap Question  (Read 2751 times)

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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Butt Snap Question
« on: September 24, 2021, 08:24:49 AM »
Score is B 21, A 14.  3rd and 5 at the B-30 with under 2 minutes in the game and the game clock is running. Team A is in shotgun formation running a hurry-up offense.  Snapper A50 starts his long snap motion when the ball appears to hit him in the butt and fall directly to the ground between his legs.   After a short delay A50 "recovers" the loose ball and runs for a 1st down to the B-25.  What do we have?
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Butt Snap Question
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2021, 08:29:36 AM »
Score is B 21, A 14.  3rd and 5 at the B-30 with under 2 minutes in the game and the game clock is running. Team A is in shotgun formation running a hurry-up offense.  Snapper A50 starts his long snap motion when the ball appears to hit him in the butt and fall directly to the ground between his legs.   After a short delay A50 "recovers" the loose ball and runs for a 1st down to the B-25.  What do we have?
Snap infraction. Dead ball. 5yds and replay.


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Offline HLinNC

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Re: Butt Snap Question
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2021, 09:31:35 AM »
As long as the motion was quick and continuous, the ball hit the ground, no foul.  See 2-40-2 and -3.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Butt Snap Question
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2021, 09:33:50 AM »
The snapper is an A lineman. The ball hit him before it hit the ground or a back.


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Offline ncwingman

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Re: Butt Snap Question
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2021, 11:48:18 AM »
If you give them the benefit of the doubt, as Calhoun said, it violates 7-2-4 as a snap infraction. If it doesn't pass the smell test, it violates 7-2-8 for a planned loose ball in the vicinity of the snapper.

Either way, S19, 5 yard penalty.

Planned loose ball is a live ball foul, so B could recover the ball. The snap infraction is a dead ball foul, so you'd kill that ASAP.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Butt Snap Question
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2021, 07:17:31 AM »
You risk more than a little crapola if you leave this live—multiple COPs, injuries, etc.  I’d kill this immediately.

And I’ve never seen (or heard of) a planned loose ball play with the QB not under center.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Butt Snap Question
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2021, 08:44:10 AM »
….And remember, if you let the ball remain alive, the QB can't pick it up and spike it to conserve time.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Butt Snap Question
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2021, 08:51:12 AM »
If the snap is otherwise legal, it's live.  If the only reason you're making it a foul is because the QB was absent, and the snap was otherwise legal with no double clutches etc, then I would say it's live.

NCAA it's explicitly live, FWIW.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Butt Snap Question
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2021, 10:13:41 AM »
If the snap is otherwise legal, it's live.  If the only reason you're making it a foul is because the QB was absent, and the snap was otherwise legal with no double clutches etc, then I would say it's live.

NCAA it's explicitly live, FWIW.

I made it a foul because the ball hit an A lineman before it touched a back or the ground.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Butt Snap Question
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2021, 11:02:05 AM »
7-5-1e EXCEPTION states that if the snap hit the ground it could no longer be legally spiked. It was the feeling that ,if the center snapped a "grounder", the QB would loose the ability to legally spike  as it was prior if he muffed the direct snap.

Offline refjeff

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Re: Butt Snap Question
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2021, 08:26:51 PM »
You risk more than a little crapola if you leave this live—multiple COPs, injuries, etc.  I’d kill this immediately.


This is true of every fumble.  Should we kill all of them?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2021, 08:35:52 PM by refjeff »

Offline refjeff

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Re: Butt Snap Question
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2021, 08:34:14 PM »
I made it a foul because the ball hit an A lineman before it touched a back or the ground.
But the definition doesn't say "hit" an A lineman, it says "touch," and the ball is already touching the snapper's hand. And a legal snap can't touch an A lineman after it leaves the center's hand, and the ball is still in his hand.

 2.40.2 ...during which the ball immediately leaves the hand(s) of the snapper and touches a back or the ground before it touches and A lineman.

C'mon fellas.  This is a fumble, not a foul.

« Last Edit: September 27, 2021, 08:37:40 PM by refjeff »

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Butt Snap Question
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2021, 08:35:53 PM »
This is true of every fumble.  Should we call all of them?

IMHO this by rule is not a fumble so the question is not on point.  If the snapper hits his own butt with the snap then this is simply a DB foul, Illegal Snap, nothing more, nothing less.
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Offline refjeff

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Re: Butt Snap Question
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2021, 08:38:44 PM »
IMHO this by rule is not a fumble so the question is not on point.  If the snapper hits his own butt with the snap then this is simply a DB foul, Illegal Snap, nothing more, nothing less.
  Nothing in the rule book says it is a foul.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Butt Snap Question
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2021, 08:42:21 PM »
  Nothing in the rule book says it is a foul.
Sure there is. The ball left the hand of the snapper and touched something other than the ground or a back. What did it touch? The snapper. Is the snapper an offensive lineman? By rule, yes.


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Offline refjeff

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Re: Butt Snap Question
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2021, 08:47:01 PM »
Sure there is. The ball left the hand of the snapper and touched something other than the ground or a back. What did it touch? The snapper. Is the snapper an offensive lineman? By rule, yes.


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So you're saying that the center didn't snap the ball into his own butt?  That it magically changed direction contrary to the laws of physics?

Sure, that could happen.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Butt Snap Question
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2021, 08:49:41 PM »
So you're saying that the center didn't snap the ball into his own butt?  That it magically changed direction contrary to the laws of physics?

Sure, that could happen.
That’s not what I’m saying at all. Are you saying that if there had been hands under there that the ball wouldn’t have left the hand of the snapper when it hit the hands of the back? Remove the hands and tell me the difference. The ball left the hands of the snapper when it hit the butt of the A lineman who happened to be the snapper. Just because it’s the same guy doesn’t mean anything. Prove me wrong.


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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Butt Snap Question
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2021, 04:48:32 AM »
This is true of every fumble.  Should we kill all of them?

The only couple of times I’ve seen this happen with the QB in shotgun, everybody on both sides stopped playing and looked around in confusion.  We killed it, penalized A for illegal snap, and played the next down.  Nobody said a word.

YMMV

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Butt Snap Question
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2021, 02:28:38 PM »
In today's impolite society, one often hears : "STICK IT UP YOUR BUTT  :puke:". Rarely does one   have the opportunity to see one such occur :o. By applying 2-32-9, the snapper would assumed to be a lineman. By then applying 2-40-2, it appears we have a dead ball foul. Allowing the ball to remain alive will have happenings occur that will not have a happy ending  :o ??? ::) :P :-\ . Ruling it a dead ball foul will not.  ^flag
« Last Edit: September 29, 2021, 03:37:55 AM by Ralph Damren »