Author Topic: Am I going crazy here?  (Read 4944 times)

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Offline SouthGARef

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Am I going crazy here?
« on: July 23, 2013, 01:51:53 PM »
Rules question off of last year's state test. Trust me, they've gotten rules wrong before but I think all the numbers are playing tricks with me here and I wanted to get confirmation from someone else before I present on this to the association tonight:

A10 completes a legal forward pass 10 yards downfield to A34 who then fumbles. B50 recovers the fumble and returns the ball to B's 40 yard line where he is horse collar tackled out of bounds. During the return B71 blocks an opponent in the back at B's 45 yard line. Properly officiated

A. Both fouls happen after change of possession and they will offset.

B. Team B may keep the ball after declining the penalty on Team A with enforcement of the block in the back from the end of the run.

C. Team B may keep the ball after declining the penalty on Team A with enforcement of the penalty for the block in the back from B's45 yard line.

D. Team B may keep the ball after enforcement of the block in the back penalty. The horse collar tackle is a dead ball foul and will be assessed separately.

I answered B, but the state marked it incorrect with the answer being C. Pretty sure that's incorrect, but just wanted guidance before I make a full out of myself.

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: Am I going crazy here?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2013, 01:55:14 PM »
hint: as it reads, horse collar is dead ball foul for the play.

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: Am I going crazy here?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2013, 01:58:01 PM »
hint: as it reads, horse collar is dead ball foul for the play.

Que? 9-4-3k: "... The horse-collar foul is enforced as a live-ball foul."

I've already thrown out A & D as they are obviously not the correct answer.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Am I going crazy here?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2013, 02:16:14 PM »
Correct answer is C. B must decline all live-ball fouls on A to keep the ball. A horsecollar foul is treated as a live ball foul even if it ends in dead ball territory. Consider : If it was treated as a dead-ball foul, on 4th down and the line-to-gain not met, the ball would turn over to the defense & the penalty then enforced. If the "horsecollar act" both started & ended OOB, you would have a dead-ball personal foul not a horsecollar foul...ie..you can't have a dead ball clip / facemask / or whatever, they are merely dead-ball personal fouls.Make sense?

JKinGA29

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Re: Am I going crazy here?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2013, 02:26:00 PM »
I don't have sufficient information to determine if you're going crazy...but I can tell you that you are correct regarding this question!  This is one of two that were wrong on the state test last year.  I didn't even catch this one until after the test (I answered C and accidentally got it right).  First, they didn't make clear that the horse-collar started inbounds, even though that's what they were going for but I knew that much.  The part I, and apparently the state, missed was that the foul did not occur behind the basic spot so enforcement would be from the basic spot which is the end of the run.  Correct answer should be B.  All those numbers can be confusing sometimes!
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 02:31:50 PM by JKinGA29 »

maven

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Re: Am I going crazy here?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2013, 03:03:18 PM »
Correct answer is C. B must decline all live-ball fouls on A to keep the ball. A horsecollar foul is treated as a live ball foul even if it ends in dead ball territory. Consider : If it was treated as a dead-ball foul, on 4th down and the line-to-gain not met, the ball would turn over to the defense & the penalty then enforced. If the "horsecollar act" both started & ended OOB, you would have a dead-ball personal foul not a horsecollar foul...ie..you can't have a dead ball clip / facemask / or whatever, they are merely dead-ball personal fouls.Make sense?

If you're right about the HCT, then why wouldn't the IBB be enforced from the basic spot under ABO? That would make response B correct.

My guess is that there's a typo in the question, and that the return ended at A40, not B40. That would make the basic spot the spot of the foul rather than the end of the run. Then C would be the correct answer.

cougar729

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Re: Am I going crazy here?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2013, 03:44:24 PM »
The BIB occurs 5 yards beyond the end of the run, so I would go with enforcement at the end of the run, B40. 

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Am I going crazy here?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2013, 04:38:16 PM »
B.

B got the ball with clean hands, so they can keep it after declining the HCT foul.  End of run was @ the B40, and the BIB foul was past that, at the B45.  Enforce from the end of the run, 1st-and10.  Clock on snap.

I agree that the question writer probably meant for the run to end at the A-45.

Offline prab

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Re: Am I going crazy here?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2013, 12:28:04 PM »
It seems that every year there is at least one question on the NFHS test which requires the taker to guess what the question really means or tests the taker's knowledge of the rules of grammar, rather than knowledge of football rules.

For example 2009 Football Rules Examination - Part I, question 17 (a true/false question) "The runner may be legally clipped."

TRUE was the correct answer.

However, by rule, the term clipping does not apply to actions against the runner!  Therefore if it is impossible to clip a runner in the first place, how can it be done either legally or illegally? ( I see this as similar to Ralph's explanation that you can not have a horse collar tackle which both starts and ends out of bounds, it is simply a dead ball personal foul.)

Now most of us would interpret the question to mean: The runner may be legally blocked when the initial contact is from behind, at or below the waist.  BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT IT ACTUALLY SAYS!!!


Offline Rulesman

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Re: Am I going crazy here?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2013, 02:37:00 PM »
...and to think EDUCATORS actually write those test questions!
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline Bob M.

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Re: Am I going crazy here?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2013, 04:11:49 PM »
...and to think EDUCATORS actually write those test questions!

REPLY: They're not all EDUCATORS. The problem is they're not all EDITORS either.  ::)
Bob M.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Am I going crazy here?
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2013, 08:51:56 AM »
Questions are drawn from each member of the NFHS Football Editorial Committee and meshed with questions from a bank of several hundred that have been used in past years. Some questions that are challenged and provided the biggest debates are used over and over :P. One that comes to mind is : "An eligible receiver who steps out of bounds and returns inbounds is now an ineligible receiver. - T/F" Answer : He's still eligible, BUT he is illegally participating. Each year several chapter members get it wrong :(. They are usually the newer members. :!# MORAL OF STORY : Reviewing old exams is a great source of studying.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Am I going crazy here?
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2013, 07:51:05 PM »
Quote
Reviewing old exams is a great source of studying

Amen.
And the year I finally figured that out, my test scores jumped dramatically.