Author Topic: Move ball to yard line on a 1st down ?  (Read 5658 times)

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Offline Aussie-Zebra

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Move ball to yard line on a 1st down ?
« on: November 21, 2017, 07:22:17 PM »
On a 1st down or after a kick the ball should be placed on the closest yard line................... YES or NO ?
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Offline Rulesman

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Re: Move ball to yard line on a 1st down ?
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2017, 07:46:41 PM »
On a COP, definitely yes. Let each specific situation make that determination on a 1st down with no COP.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline Etref

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Re: Move ball to yard line on a 1st down ?
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2017, 08:48:59 PM »
On COP
When getting spot try to make the spot a yard line, if not when the U or C gets ready to place the ball, move off the spot so it doesn't show that they moved to the yard line
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Offline bossman72

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Re: Move ball to yard line on a 1st down ?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2017, 10:14:50 AM »
On a 1st down or after a kick the ball should be placed on the closest yard line................... YES or NO ?

If it is clearly past the LTG, yes, put it on a tick.  If you had a close one to the LTG, then put it where it is.  All COP's should be on a tick.

Offline ljudge

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Re: Move ball to yard line on a 1st down ?
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2017, 09:53:36 AM »
.... All COP's should be on a tick.

Not necessarily.  When a punt is fielded between the 5 and the goal line the football should go exactly where it became dead.  Case in point.  On a punt play the ball rolls down to the 1" line where it's downed.  I'm not moving that ball nearly 3 feet out to the one yard line.  Not fair to the punting team who hustled to down the ball.

Offline NoVaBJ

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Re: Move ball to yard line on a 1st down ?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2017, 04:28:38 PM »
Counterpoint: Put the forward point of the ball where the forward point of the ball is when it becomes dead, because that placement and only that placement is supported by rule.


Offline ChicagoZebra

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Re: Move ball to yard line on a 1st down ?
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2017, 06:56:04 PM »
Counterpoint: Put the forward point of the ball where the forward point of the ball is when it becomes dead, because that placement and only that placement is supported by rule.

You're not wrong, but you're making your own life difficult for absolutely no reason.

Plus a good umpire will put it on the tick anyways. :)

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Move ball to yard line on a 1st down ?
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2017, 07:16:52 PM »
When all else fails - or creates arguments - check the Philosophies Document.

“BALL SPOTTING
The ball can be placed on a yard line to begin the next series after a change of possession.  For example, if a punt return ends with rather ball between team B’s 33 and 34 yard lines, move the ball forward to team B’s 34 yard line.  At all other times, the ball is placed where it becomes dead.  (Exception:  If the change of possession occurs on a fourth down running or passing play, the ball will be left at the dead-ball spot to begin the next series.)”

You will see most, if not all, FBS and NFL guys put the ball on a yard line as much as they can, particularly for a new series.  It just makes life easier for everybody, and I’ve never heard of an objection from any team. 

Robert

Offline wlemonnier

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Re: Move ball to yard line on a 1st down ?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2017, 08:49:32 PM »
I agree with the general philosophy of using the front edge of the ball on the front edge of a line... the game is tough enough, eliminate needless measurement situations, plus if we do end up measuring, we know the answer before the chains come out for placement.  We're just proving what we already ruled and it's simply a PR move to measure.

That said when a team stops a 4th & goal inches from the goal line... that first series going out is going to be wherever the ball became dead on 4th down; if Team A punts and drops it inside the 1 yard line... then inside the 1 yard line is where it goes.  So just be "exact" in the red zone going in or coming out.  Otherwise do something to make the game a bit more easier for the officiating crew... unless of course you like to measure 3-4 times a game.
Bill LeMonnier

Offline Morningrise

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Re: Move ball to yard line on a 1st down ?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2017, 12:34:24 AM »
Make the nose touch the white on a clear first down. That way, ten yards later, if the nose is in the white, everyone in the stadium knows it's a first down. Unless you're inside the B-10 and inches matter.

This is not a controversial technique. This isn't just we officials being lazy or lackadaisical. I assure you the teams don't mind - in fact, if a coach is being honest, he PREFERS the certainty that this method provides.

Putting the nose on the edge of the white isn't really a matter of debate, when it's a clear first down. Where you do get debate is, if it's a first down by inches. You put the nose on the edge of the A-21. Now it's at the A-31 and the ball is halfway into the white. First down, no measurement necessary; that's exactly why we start the series at the edge in the first place. But do you start the next series right there as it lies? Or does the umpire spot the new ball back at the edge again?

Offline NoVaBJ

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Re: Move ball to yard line on a 1st down ?
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2017, 08:40:07 AM »
unless of course you like to measure 3-4 times a game.

I don't *like* doing so, but it's my job, and I am not comfortable moving balls unearned inches in a game of inches to make things marginally easier, philosophy or no.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Move ball to yard line on a 1st down ?
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2017, 09:12:29 AM »
Just to be clear, the Philosophy Document is incorporated into the CCA Manual.  It is a bit more than Pirates Code.  The philosophies were developed with the approval of the coaches, to streamline the rules with the play of the game.
Always do what your coordinator tells you to do.  But observance of the Philosophy Document isn’t intended to be optional.

Robert

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Move ball to yard line on a 1st down ?
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2017, 09:54:57 AM »
I don't *like* doing so, but it's my job, and I am not comfortable moving balls unearned inches in a game of inches to make things marginally easier, philosophy or no.

"Football is a game of inches" is a familiar cliche, that actually applies to only a very limited set of specific circumstance.  Awarding a new series of downs, is EARNED by advancing the ball 10 yards from the current series starting point, (under most standard situations) to the succeeding spot, reached by the Offense. 

Establishing a visible, previously marked, accurately measured distance between those two points does not change, or disadvantage either team, who face exactly opposite challenges and objectives, and minimizes the potential for incidental inaccuracies in placement of the ball at either the original, or succeeding spot.

Offline wlemonnier

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Re: Move ball to yard line on a 1st down ?
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2017, 11:07:06 AM »
I don't *like* doing so, but it's my job, and I am not comfortable moving balls unearned inches in a game of inches to make things marginally easier, philosophy or no.

Forward progress is an "art", not a science.  Not meant to be personal or a criticism because I was a guilty as anyone on progress spots being off.  Don't try and have the greatest eyes in the history of the game!  You're kidding yourself if you think you can spot that ball precisely on every new first down.  You'll be more accurate and consistent buying into this philosophy on front edge on new first downs.
Bill LeMonnier

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Move ball to yard line on a 1st down ?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2017, 07:21:34 PM »
I agree with the general philosophy of using the front edge of the ball on the front edge of a line... the game is tough enough, eliminate needless measurement situations, plus if we do end up measuring, we know the answer before the chains come out for placement.  We're just proving what we already ruled and it's simply a PR move to measure.

I agree 100%.  This year we were on a well marked turf field and the chains had been checked prior to the game.  We get a big 4th down play.  I decide to measure as a PR move, knowing it was short of the line, we stretch the chains and low and behold it was a first down.   :!#

Offline bossman72

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Re: Move ball to yard line on a 1st down ?
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2017, 08:19:30 AM »
Not necessarily.  When a punt is fielded between the 5 and the goal line the football should go exactly where it became dead.  Case in point.  On a punt play the ball rolls down to the 1" line where it's downed.  I'm not moving that ball nearly 3 feet out to the one yard line.  Not fair to the punting team who hustled to down the ball.

Yes, that would be the lone exception.

Offline Morningrise

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Re: Move ball to yard line on a 1st down ?
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2017, 09:38:39 AM »
Another useful exception is to put the ball at the B-9.9 yard line instead of exactly the B-10. Makes it clear that it's goal to go. Fun fact, the rear edge of the B-10 is actually 10 yards plus 2 inches away from the goal line. Not that any chains are that precise - but just go ahead and have the ball straddle the 10 so everyone in the building can tell just by eyeballing it that the chains aren't needed anymore.