Hear Ye, Hear Ye...Time to tell NFHS your opinion....

[TampaSteve]

Will be interesting to see the results of the questionnaire. - especially the one about whether games are too long.

[bama_stripes]

Ralph -- are the results publicly available?  I don't remember ever seeing them.

[Ralph Damren]

Yo, Tampa & 'Bama - We are supplied the results at the committee meeting and don't believe they are confidential, but will check. If you wish, you can PM me your FAX # and I'll send you a copy if allowable. The questionnaire results are broken down by states and by coach/official/administrator and gives an interesting view of everyone's opinions.

[Atlanta Blue]

Yo, Tampa & 'Bama - We are supplied the results at the committee meeting and don't believe they are confidential, but will check. If you wish, you can PM me your FAX # and I'll send you a copy if allowable. The questionnaire results are broken down by states and by coach/official/administrator and gives an interesting view of everyone's opinions.

FAX number?  FAX?  Really?  Come on, Ralph, they must have scanners and email in Maine by now.  Trade a few lobsters for a scanner!

[bama_stripes]

FAX number?  FAX?  Really?  Come on, Ralph, they must have scanners and email in Maine by now.  Trade a few lobsters for a scanner!

+1

[Ralph Damren]

AB - As you read my posts you are viewing my outer abilities of the computer world . While them there facsimile machines do seem to move messages a little faster, I still have a roll of "forever" postage stamps setting right next to my adding machine, pencil sharpener and rotary dial phone. Lobster is now cheaper than hamburg in Maine and this time of year their shells make great Christmas decorations. We Mainers , however, do feel that smoke signals, carrier pigeon and the telegraph are of a bygone era. Time for some lobster chowder , enjoy the weekend, y'all.

[TampaSteve]

Yo, Tampa & 'Bama - We are supplied the results at the committee meeting and don't believe they are confidential, but will check. If you wish, you can PM me your FAX # and I'll send you a copy if allowable. The questionnaire results are broken down by states and by coach/official/administrator and gives an interesting view of everyone's opinions.

Maybe just have your on staff monk copy it & have the pony express guy pick it up. 

[Soccerisfootball]

good survey.  Several things I am hopeful for.

The Big One is that all defensive Personal Fouls include automatic first down. That has to happen as there is so much inequality in it's current format. I mean why is roughing the quarterback any worse then a late hit or illegal helmet contact?

The clock: We will always stop the clock on a first down. What I would purpose is that, except for the last two minutes of each half, after a player goes out of bounds, the referee will start the clock with his ready for play whistle. It would speed the game up but don't need to go to the extreme of the 40/25 play clock.

[Atlanta Blue]

The clock: We will always stop the clock on a first down. What I would purpose is that, except for the last two minutes of each half, after a player goes out of bounds, the referee will start the clock with his ready for play whistle. It would speed the game up but don't need to go to the extreme of the 40/25 play clock.

Why does it need to speed up?  We had one game all year that went over 2:20, and we have 23+ minute halftimes.

Cut the useless three minute "mandatory warmup" after halftime, and you will make up time right there.  While I like 20 minute halftimes, I would rather see halftime drop to 15 minutes than to run the clock during dead ball periods.

[Wingmanbp]

In Texas most halftimes are 28 minutes. 
But with some games we needed that extra time. 42-38 at half  then 62-48 final. Last game of the year and I was wore out as HL

[Atlanta Blue]

In Texas most halftimes are 28 minutes. 
But with some games we needed that extra time. 42-38 at half  then 62-48 final. Last game of the year and I was wore out as HL

Don't you already use NCAA timing rules?
Don't they have defensive coaches in Texas? 

[Wingmanbp]

Yeah but UIL states up to 28 minute halves.
And that spread offense that is so popular makes for some high scoring games. Until someone comes up with a sure fire D to stop it.

[Johnponz]

I have always wondered why do we have to be creative at all?  if we want shorter games just make the quarters 10:00 instead of 12:00 that is guaranteed to shorten the game.

[bama_stripes]

Why does it need to speed up?  We had one game all year that went over 2:20, and we have 23+ minute halftimes

And you know that's fairly unusual.  I know you coach in a large metropolitan area, but think about the rural schools who may have multi-hour drives on 2-lane roads late on a Friday night.

While I like 20 minute halftimes, I would rather see halftime drop to 15 minutes than to run the clock during dead ball periods.

Band parent alert!

[Atlanta Blue]

And you know that's fairly unusual.  I know you coach in a large metropolitan area, but think about the rural schools who may have multi-hour drives on 2-lane roads late on a Friday night.

Not unusual at all.  Even the TV games are scheduled for 2.5 hour blocks, they kick off at 7:37 (later than our 7:30), and still finish by 10:00, and they have an extra time out each quarter for commercials.

If you want to get home earlier, kickoff at 7:00 instead of 7:30 or 8:00!

And living in a metro area doesn't eliminate multi-hour drives.  We had a game last year that was 21 miles from our school to theirs.  It took us 1:40 to get there.  Welcome to rush hour traffic in Atlanta!

Band parent alert!

I have no problem telling band parents that this isn't a band concert that happens to be surrounded by a football game!  When they go to their band competitions, they can take all the time their rules allow, and I don't care if that means 30 minute shows.  I'll even go so far as to promise we won't run any plays while they are performing!  But Friday night is just practice time for the band.

[Johnponz]

Really, I have never heard a coach or player complain the game is too long.  The college rules are different mainly because of TV and needing to fit a game into a specific time frame.

I don't know why some officials seem to be on this bandwagon to shorten games.  Let the players have their time to showcase their talent.  With all of the real issues that the game has right now, I really do not believe being too long is one of them.

[TxSkyBolt]

Don't you already use NCAA timing rules?

In Texas we didn't adopt the timing rules NCAA did back in 08. Also, we don't use the 40/25 second play clock...yet. It's coming next year, but the game clock will still be operated as we do now (ie not restarted after OOB plays, no 10-second zaps, etc.).

[TampaSteve]

Really, I have never heard a coach or player complain the game is too long.  The college rules are different mainly because of TV and needing to fit a game into a specific time frame.

I don't know why some officials seem to be on this bandwagon to shorten games.  Let the players have their time to showcase their talent.  With all of the real issues that the game has right now, I really do not believe being too long is one of them.

The point of "shortening" games is actually to speed them up.
To preface, every part of every State, City, County, etc. is a little different.  Some area may have short games in their area, some may have long games in their area.  But there is seemingly a trend with HS football that games are longer than they were 10 or even 5 years ago.
In summary, the discussion centers around this:
HS games, 48min, taking nearly as long as NCAA/NFL games which are +25% longer (60min). - yet HS does not have all the TV timeouts, etc you see at NCAA/NFL.

Put another way, NCAA/NFL games, with all their commercials, etc., are generally +/-195min long.  That said, in theory, since a HS game is -25% shorter, it (again, in theory) should only last about 146min. 
Sadly though HS games are becoming about +/-180min, or only -8% shorter. - with no commercials too. 

This is probably largely due to the fact that Coaches, players, in their attempt to emulate what they see on TV, run out of bounds anytime they are near the sidelines and attempt to employ the U of Ore offense when they dont have a QB to throw and/or the athletes to catch.  Each of these, with current HS rules, lead to HS games lasting nearly the same length as NCAA/NFL games.

[Johnponz]

This is all very interesting, but why does it matter if the game is as long as a pro or college game if the participants and coaches are not complaining about it?  Again if you want to shorten the game, do it the easy way and change the number of minutes in a quarter from 12:00 to 10:00 (why be clandestine about it?).

[TampaSteve]

This is all very interesting, but why does it matter if the game is as long as a pro or college game if the participants and coaches are not complaining about it?  Again if you want to shorten the game, do it the easy way and change the number of minutes in a quarter from 12:00 to 10:00 (why be clandestine about it?).

Good questions, but I dont know those answers.
Conversely though NCAA/NFL each amended rules to the game changing/evolving (primarily TV-related).  Seems it's trickling down to the HS level.

[Atlanta Blue]

Put another way, NCAA/NFL games, with all their commercials, etc., are generally +/-195min long.  That said, in theory, since a HS game is -25% shorter, it (again, in theory) should only last about 146min. 
Sadly though HS games are becoming about +/-180min, or only -8% shorter. - with no commercials too. 

NFL games actually average just under 2:57.  NCAA games (FCS) are averaging about 3:07, although many stretch to 3:20 or more.

In 14 years where I have kept track of all of our games, no game that was not weather delayed EVER broke the 3:00 mark.  We came close this year for the first time, in a game where there were over 40 fouls called.

NFL halftime: 12 minutes.  And that's not when the teams are called back onto the field.  When the clock hits zero and is reset, the ball is handed to the kicker.  And the halftime clock starts seconds after the second quarter ends.

College halftime: Usually 20 minutes.  Again, the clock starts almost immediately, and when it hits zero, whistles blow and teams line up.

HS halftime (at least here): Officials wait until both teams are off the field, then they start a 20 minute halftime clock.  When the 20 minutes is up, another 3 minutes is put on the clock.  When the 3 minutes are up, the teams leave their "mandatory warmup" and head to the bench.  The officials give them 30 seconds or so to talk, then start blowing their whistles to get them on the field.  Teams huddle on the sideline, and finally get out on the field.  Officials count players and hand the ball to the kicker.  Then the R checks with each official by hand signal, and then the RFP is blown.  Total time from end of last play of 2nd quarter: about 26 minutes.

Add to that, time between quarters is usually closer to 2 minutes than 1.  Time after scores is always closer to two (or longer) minutes than 1.  Ball goes OOB, and officials worry about keeping THAT ball in play instead of grabbing one from a ball boy and setting the new ball.  Time from a runner going OOB to the RFP is closer to 25 seconds, when it should be 12.

If there were more plays going OOB or more incomplete passes, then we would be running more offensive plays per game.  The average number of plays we run per game has not changed by more than 2% in 14 years (from 54 to 55).

You want faster games (which I don't think are necessary)?
Shorten halftime to 12 or 15 minutes.
Eliminate the mandatory 3 minute warmup.
Clean up mechanics!  That includes:
- Starting the halftime clock when the half ends
- One minute time outs
- One minute after a score
- RFP in 12 seconds after the play ends
- Have the teams on the field and ready to go when the halftime clock hits zero
- If the ball is incomplete or goes OOB, grab a new ball and get it to the U.  Let ball boys chase balls.

The pace of the game is MUCH more determined by the officials than by the style of offense run by the teams, or changing timing rules.
   

[TampaSteve]

NFL games actually average just under 2:57.  NCAA games (FCS) are averaging about 3:07, although many stretch to 3:20 or more.

In 14 years where I have kept track of all of our games, no game that was not weather delayed EVER broke the 3:00 mark.  We came close this year for the first time, in a game where there were over 40 fouls called.

NFL halftime: 12 minutes.  And that's not when the teams are called back onto the field.  When the clock hits zero and is reset, the ball is handed to the kicker.  And the halftime clock starts seconds after the second quarter ends.

College halftime: Usually 20 minutes.  Again, the clock starts almost immediately, and when it hits zero, whistles blow and teams line up.

HS halftime (at least here): Officials wait until both teams are off the field, then they start a 20 minute halftime clock.  When the 20 minutes is up, another 3 minutes is put on the clock.  When the 3 minutes are up, the teams leave their "mandatory warmup" and head to the bench.  The officials give them 30 seconds or so to talk, then start blowing their whistles to get them on the field.  Teams huddle on the sideline, and finally get out on the field.  Officials count players and hand the ball to the kicker.  Then the R checks with each official by hand signal, and then the RFP is blown.  Total time from end of last play of 2nd quarter: about 26 minutes.

Add to that, time between quarters is usually closer to 2 minutes than 1.  Time after scores is always closer to two (or longer) minutes than 1.  Ball goes OOB, and officials worry about keeping THAT ball in play instead of grabbing one from a ball boy and setting the new ball.  Time from a runner going OOB to the RFP is closer to 25 seconds, when it should be 12.

If there were more plays going OOB or more incomplete passes, then we would be running more offensive plays per game.  The average number of plays we run per game has not changed by more than 2% in 14 years (from 54 to 55).

You want faster games (which I don't think are necessary)?
Shorten halftime to 12 or 15 minutes.
Eliminate the mandatory 3 minute warmup.
Clean up mechanics!  That includes:
- Starting the halftime clock when the half ends
- One minute time outs
- One minute after a score
- RFP in 12 seconds after the play ends
- Have the teams on the field and ready to go when the halftime clock hits zero
- If the ball is incomplete or goes OOB, grab a new ball and get it to the U.  Let ball boys chase balls.

The pace of the game is MUCH more determined by the officials than by the style of offense run by the teams, or changing timing rules.

Great points, as always, by Atl.
All too often, several minutes per game wasted which could be tightened up. 
*Kickoffs, for one, round these parts. After a try, there should be no more than 1min before the whistle blows.  sadly, you do not see this too much.
*Agree w/ ballboys, should we have ones that know what they are doing.

Again though, every place is different.

[VALJ]

This is probably largely due to the fact that Coaches, players, in their attempt to emulate what they see on TV, run out of bounds anytime they are near the sidelines and attempt to employ the U of Ore offense when they dont have a QB to throw and/or the athletes to catch[/I].  Each of these, with current HS rules, lead to HS games lasting nearly the same length as NCAA/NFL games.

This.

While I won't say that we're 100% up with AB's suggestions on how to speed up the games, we generally hit a lot of them.  (We as referees actually have our RFP's timed when we have an observer, and our goal is 10-15 seconds whistle to whistle).  Our games seemed to come in mostly between 2:30 and 2:50, barring major delays such as weather, ambulance for severe injury, etc.  That's definitely up from 10 years ago when I started, where we were usually in the 2:15 range.  Is it a problem?  Not for me to say.

[Magician]

All valid points Joe.  I think both the pace of the officials and the type of play equally impact the length of the game.  Theoretically our crew is doing all those things consistently and I think we do a pretty good job with flow.  We do wait until the teams leave the field before starting the halftime clock, but this is usually due to the fact the teams often have long walks to their locker rooms and teams often have leave through the same gate.  We could do a better job getting the teams lined up for the second half.

That being said, our game times vary from just under 2 hours to 2:45. The factors are the types of plays that happen, the number of penalties and the number of scores.  Our shortest game this year was 35-7 so there was a fair amount of scoring but both teams ran almost exclusively.  The first quarter took 15 minutes of actual time.  I think our longest game was 57-13 in week 1 with a lot of penalties by both teams.

[HLinNC]

Two things that are leading to longer games in HS, incomplete passes from an increased passing game and higher scores.  If we agree with AB that officials could tweak post-score and inter-period times, we still can't do anything about missed/dropped passes and intermissions between scores in an 80-36 ball game, ( a real score from a real game this season).  Going with a more common 49-7 type game, that is minimum of 8 minutes added plus roughly another minute to 1:30 for each try so now we've tacked on 15 extra minutes.

Closer games and conservative offense leads to the clock running more.